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Wasn't the same true with T-2 Tankers? They were built as fast as humanly possible with a few seeing service for quite a while after WWII?
Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
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Much as it pains me in specific to admit it (sorry Sara) even the very best conversion will never be as good as a purpose built ship of the same size. Sara was the absolute best CV conversion- FITE ME -and even she has flaws. Her hangar can't carry as many planes as it should for her size, and her hull does not lend itself to really extensive modernization. Even had she not been worn out at the end of the war, slapping an angled deck on her would have been equivalent to the work it took on Vicky...and ask the Brits how that went. You can also toss in that sticking ALL TEH DAKKA on her actually overloaded her to the point her belt was going underwater.
Compare to the Essex class or Midway.
Akagi/Kaga/Furious/Courageous are even worse off in different ways. The Japanese botes are very inefficient conversions for the size of them. Furious and Courageous have the typical flaws of Brit carriers- small airwings -while also having the issues of not making use of their size as well.
So...yes. It is possible to convert CC/BB hulls to carriers. But they won't be as good as purpose built ones. And it's a lot simpler to take a battlecruiser or battleship hull and weld a flight-deck and hangar onto it than the reverse. Yes, that's simplifying things, but the point remains. A carrier hull is not designed to be weighed down in armor or cut into to add barbettes and turrets. Or shell magazines. Or superstructure- conning towers weigh quite a lot, yo.
Compare to the Essex class or Midway.
Akagi/Kaga/Furious/Courageous are even worse off in different ways. The Japanese botes are very inefficient conversions for the size of them. Furious and Courageous have the typical flaws of Brit carriers- small airwings -while also having the issues of not making use of their size as well.
So...yes. It is possible to convert CC/BB hulls to carriers. But they won't be as good as purpose built ones. And it's a lot simpler to take a battlecruiser or battleship hull and weld a flight-deck and hangar onto it than the reverse. Yes, that's simplifying things, but the point remains. A carrier hull is not designed to be weighed down in armor or cut into to add barbettes and turrets. Or shell magazines. Or superstructure- conning towers weigh quite a lot, yo.
Old Iron
Admiral Unfun
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Makes quite a lot of sense. Purpose built will almost always beat out a conversion by that simple fact. I can use pliers to screw something in, but I would fare much better using an actual screwdriver. Not the best analogy, but I'm trying.
And I'm sorry, but that FITE ME had me laughing all the way to work. I bet Sara's blushing up a storm right now.
And I'm sorry, but that FITE ME had me laughing all the way to work. I bet Sara's blushing up a storm right now.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
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Let's be honest, do you expect anything else from me by now?
Anywho, the general consensus I've seen is that the Lexington-class were the best conversion carriers ever built, most certainly the best to result from the WNT. Furious gets a pass because she's both the first carrier and the first conversion at the same time. The others?
Sara could carry, when designed, 78 aircraft. At Eastern Solomons, she carried 90. By 1945, 70. These are the BIG AND BURLY late-war American planes as well.
Her contemporaries could never quite match this. Akagi carried 66 planes (with 25 in reserve). I'm not sure if these 'reserve' planes are actually useable or if they're in storage, however. If the latter, don't bother counting them. The only time a carrier ever put together and launched a plane carried in storage is, you guessed it, Sara. And you had to have her machinery shops build the tools to put said plane together first. Assembling and flying off an aircraft isn't an easy process. If a plane is just disassembled, it might be a different story. If it's crated up though...
And I say this, because Kaga carried 90 planes. Of which 72 were usable, the remainder marked in storage. Hence, I'm unsure if Akagi did the same or not. Unfortunately, my book on the subject doesn't specify if they're in boxes or just reserves. So...mea culpa. Either Akagi and Kaga carry slightly less planes, or slightly more-that-need-work-to-use. Even if reserves not stored in boxes. It's still worth noting that even if the reserves can be launched easily, they're still reserves, compared to active and ready on Sara.
Courageous, Glorious and Eagle? 48 on the former two, as little as 30 on the latter. Though Eagle is pretty tiny by carrier standards.
Now, comparing this to purpose built carriers just shows the problem in conversions though. Ranger, much smaller, could carry at least as many planes as Sara. But, then, she was designed specifically to fit all teh planes on a small hull and suffers in her layout. A better example is Sara's daughterbote Lexteen (CV-16). Over 100 aircraft, the late-war types. Compared to the 70 or so Sara could muster. On a ship about the same size. A purpose designed carrier of the same size should always be able to carry more planes than a conversion. Because they're designed from the ground up to carry as many planes as needed, instead of trying to bend and twist a hull not meant for it.
Sara's real advantage compared to other conversions, though, is probably in her raw toughness. Akagi and Kaga are rife with design flaws, even leaving out Kaga's memetic mobile heater status. A lot of these issues come from the way they were designed. No redundancy in safety features, their avgas tanks being part of the structure of the ship, their hangar/flight-deck armor being pretty much non-existent....there's a reason both of them were taken out so relatively easily at Midway. Whereas Lex took two bombs and two torps and could have survived all of that ably...
Had her fuel tanks not cracked.
Or Sara taking multiple bombs and Kamikazes and continued trucking.
Not as tough as the Yorktown class, but then, the Yorktowns are ludicrously hard to sink. Yorktown herself could have survive Midway, which is multiple hits on top of her rushed repairs from Coral Sea- damage that would have sunk most Japanese carriers as it sat -had Imuya not lewded her. Hornet took a truly hilarious amount of pounding before she went under. And we all know about Enterprise.
From purely economic terms, you can look at Akagi and Kaga needing not just one extensive refit, but two. Very costly refits. Lex/Sara were pretty much finished when first converted, save for widening of their flight-decks, swapping the eight-inch guns for the ubiquitous dual 5in, and the addition of torpedo bulges.
Yet for all this...
Her contemporaries could never quite match this. Akagi carried 66 planes (with 25 in reserve). I'm not sure if these 'reserve' planes are actually useable or if they're in storage, however. If the latter, don't bother counting them. The only time a carrier ever put together and launched a plane carried in storage is, you guessed it, Sara. And you had to have her machinery shops build the tools to put said plane together first. Assembling and flying off an aircraft isn't an easy process. If a plane is just disassembled, it might be a different story. If it's crated up though...
And I say this, because Kaga carried 90 planes. Of which 72 were usable, the remainder marked in storage. Hence, I'm unsure if Akagi did the same or not. Unfortunately, my book on the subject doesn't specify if they're in boxes or just reserves. So...mea culpa. Either Akagi and Kaga carry slightly less planes, or slightly more-that-need-work-to-use. Even if reserves not stored in boxes. It's still worth noting that even if the reserves can be launched easily, they're still reserves, compared to active and ready on Sara.
Courageous, Glorious and Eagle? 48 on the former two, as little as 30 on the latter. Though Eagle is pretty tiny by carrier standards.
Now, comparing this to purpose built carriers just shows the problem in conversions though. Ranger, much smaller, could carry at least as many planes as Sara. But, then, she was designed specifically to fit all teh planes on a small hull and suffers in her layout. A better example is Sara's daughterbote Lexteen (CV-16). Over 100 aircraft, the late-war types. Compared to the 70 or so Sara could muster. On a ship about the same size. A purpose designed carrier of the same size should always be able to carry more planes than a conversion. Because they're designed from the ground up to carry as many planes as needed, instead of trying to bend and twist a hull not meant for it.
Sara's real advantage compared to other conversions, though, is probably in her raw toughness. Akagi and Kaga are rife with design flaws, even leaving out Kaga's memetic mobile heater status. A lot of these issues come from the way they were designed. No redundancy in safety features, their avgas tanks being part of the structure of the ship, their hangar/flight-deck armor being pretty much non-existent....there's a reason both of them were taken out so relatively easily at Midway. Whereas Lex took two bombs and two torps and could have survived all of that ably...
Had her fuel tanks not cracked.
Or Sara taking multiple bombs and Kamikazes and continued trucking.
Not as tough as the Yorktown class, but then, the Yorktowns are ludicrously hard to sink. Yorktown herself could have survive Midway, which is multiple hits on top of her rushed repairs from Coral Sea- damage that would have sunk most Japanese carriers as it sat -had Imuya not lewded her. Hornet took a truly hilarious amount of pounding before she went under. And we all know about Enterprise.
From purely economic terms, you can look at Akagi and Kaga needing not just one extensive refit, but two. Very costly refits. Lex/Sara were pretty much finished when first converted, save for widening of their flight-decks, swapping the eight-inch guns for the ubiquitous dual 5in, and the addition of torpedo bulges.
Yet for all this...
TL;DR: Sara is best conversion, but a purpose built carrier will always be better. At the very least, in the amount of aircraft she can carry. Which is rather the point of a carrier, isn't it?
Sara probably could have carried maybe 50 or so first-gen jets, at best, without tearing her hangar apart from the ground up.
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The reserve planes of the japanese were literally hanging on the roof of their hangars so they were capable to be put into good use to replace losses but until then there wasn't enough room on either the hangars nor the deck to use them even if the carrier had pilots to spare.
Actaully I believe that was on the US ships.
From what I found on Kaga and Akagi plane count the ones in storage were were in crates like Shinino were.
It is worth mentioning that the Japanese planes wings couldn't fold in any useful amount. You could store three Hellcats in the same space that two Zeros took up.
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
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Yeah, USN carriers were the ones with planes hanging from the ceiling. Specifically, we started that on Lex and Sara, which is what let them carry more than the 78 designed aircraft.
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Then once she gets aircraft that gets folding wings she can carry even more! Japanese Carrier Planes didn't really have folding wings and folding wings wasn't really a thing for Carrier Aircraft until really the TBF Avenger and F4F-4 Wildcat made their appearance, the SBD and later the SB2C Helldiver didn't have folding wings because they needed the strength in their wings considering their role.
I believe that's what the lowest hangar is for on them. They had three hangar levels, with the spares carried in the smallest, lowest, otherwise effectively useless auxiliary third hangar.
Oh?
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That's true, both Akagi and Kaga from what I have read had two fully enclosed hangar decks that ran the length of the ship. These had a lot of problems as they could allow for fuel vapors to build up inside the hangar and reach dangerous levels to the point that a bomb hit would well, turn a Japanese Aircraft Carrier into a floating inferno. Another thing, Akagi had her Island (superstructure) on the portside rather than on the starboard side. It resulted in more landing accidents occurring.
EDIT: I stand corrected on the SB2C Helldiver, also a bit of a fun fact, one of the nicknames for the Helldiver was Son of a Bitch 2nd Class. The SBD didn't have folding wings I don't think.
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
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- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
BB conversions were terrible because armor reduces speed and carriers need speed because it helps them do their job (launch planes). On a low wind day, Kaga struggled to get planes into the air.
The majority of conversions were from BC's and for good reason. BC's were built for speed
As a note on speed, Japan's best carrier class, the Shikaku, could actually *outrun* US torpedoes.
The majority of conversions were from BC's and for good reason. BC's were built for speed
As a note on speed, Japan's best carrier class, the Shikaku, could actually *outrun* US torpedoes.
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Its Shoukaku but then again that is a common error in spelling, first time I heard someone say that name I thought they had said Shikaku when it's actually Shoukaku.
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I don't know if this has been mentioned but one of the reasons American ships were a lot more durable than almost anyone elses was our damage control techniques we started adopting after world war one. Now the the US Navy was interested in the damage taken by the Kaiser's navy and how they handled it. Witch ultimately led to its whole sale adaptation. These techniques are still used today.
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The same could be said for the Japanese Aircraft Carrier Shoukaku she constantly was taking a battering whenever she sortied.
Spectre
eternal servant to the Fire/EMS gods
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except the problem is that Showtimes the except to the rule. to put it into perspective Yorktown took more hits then Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu combined and would have been back in action by early 43 had it not been for stumbling into a subs gunsight.
Not really a fair comparison. Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu were sunk as much by the circumstances of being caught by surprise than anything else. If Yorktown had been caught with a fully armed, fueling strike in/on her decks, she could easily have gone up like a tinderbox like the 3 Japanese carriers. That is also why Shokaku was able to take so many hits in the course of her service -- because she was mostly able to prepare properly before coming under enemy attack.
Of course, she (like all the Japanese carriers) still had design issues with their aviation gas storage... ultimately what helped doom her.
Spectre
eternal servant to the Fire/EMS gods
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she kind of did though. There was a least 1 squadron of SBD's fully fueled and armed in her hanger deck which were hit and caught fire. The other difference was that the fire prevention systems were much better on US carriers (Akagi's was knocked out by a near miss.)
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
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Also note that ealier carrier design often had issues that were latter recognized but which america had the industrial capability to fix and japan didn't.
The Shoukaku class were proper dedicated fleet carriers - japan only ever built 3 and then went to the Unryu which was just a midly improved Soryu (and retained many of the faults) becaue they didn't have the resources to build proper fleet carriers in significant numbers.
Japanese naval philosophy was very much of the "don't get hit in the first place" mindset, and their daamge control design was oriented towards containing minor to moderate damage. Which actually makes sense. Shipbuilding always involves tradeoffs, and japan didn't really have the human resources to be rebuilding badly damaged carriers anyway.
Japanese carriers didn't mount as many backup generators or power lines (steam lines really because the major power was from steam turbines), but they had a sequestration system and a one-shot (unpowered) extinguisher array which would have been effective against moderate rather than catastrophic damage. meanwhile the US way of managing damage control was much more active pumping and brute force fire fighting, which could, with a skilled crew and solid preparation, mitigate even heavy damage- but that was something that japan probably could not do even if they wanted to. not enough industrial production, not enough people with technical training.
Also doubke check your sources becuase i'm pretty sure the only thing knocked out by a near miss on akagi was her rudder.
The Shoukaku class were proper dedicated fleet carriers - japan only ever built 3 and then went to the Unryu which was just a midly improved Soryu (and retained many of the faults) becaue they didn't have the resources to build proper fleet carriers in significant numbers.
Japanese naval philosophy was very much of the "don't get hit in the first place" mindset, and their daamge control design was oriented towards containing minor to moderate damage. Which actually makes sense. Shipbuilding always involves tradeoffs, and japan didn't really have the human resources to be rebuilding badly damaged carriers anyway.
Japanese carriers didn't mount as many backup generators or power lines (steam lines really because the major power was from steam turbines), but they had a sequestration system and a one-shot (unpowered) extinguisher array which would have been effective against moderate rather than catastrophic damage. meanwhile the US way of managing damage control was much more active pumping and brute force fire fighting, which could, with a skilled crew and solid preparation, mitigate even heavy damage- but that was something that japan probably could not do even if they wanted to. not enough industrial production, not enough people with technical training.
Also doubke check your sources becuase i'm pretty sure the only thing knocked out by a near miss on akagi was her rudder.
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I've wondered if the Japanese could've gotten any of the improved Taihous commissioned before Wars end if they committed to them instead of the Unryuus.
Maybe I just want to see Taihou sisters.
Maybe I just want to see Taihou sisters.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
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IIRC they managed to build just one carrier in all of 1942-43 and that was Taiho (was it really a whole new class? I just figured it for being like Shoukaku). With that speed, i kinda figure Unryu was the right choice.
Then again, without Midway, maybe they would have.
Wouldn't help them against 10+ Essex that the US would have churned out
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
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There was a handful of improved Taihou-style carriers planned. Granted, Japan also planned like, 15 Unryuu-class carriers. We know how that went for them.
Speaking of which, they only finished three Unryuu-class by the end of the war. Even if all those resources were pushed to improved Taihous?
What's to say they'd have more luck building the most advanced design Japan had, compared to a simple Hiryuu retread?
Speaking of which, they only finished three Unryuu-class by the end of the war. Even if all those resources were pushed to improved Taihous?
What's to say they'd have more luck building the most advanced design Japan had, compared to a simple Hiryuu retread?
Nicholas
No longer teaching battlethings on a battleship
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There were two near misses. One, like you said, knocked out her rudder, but the second just off midships broke her water lines, cutting water off from the entire aft of the ship.
Japanese damage control is often a case of "for what it's worth", but that near miss basically ensured that Akagi would burn to death.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
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A near miss is not going to magically phase through the hull and rupture water lines.
Excerpt From: Parshall, Jonathan. "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway." Potomac Books,
This material may be protected by copyright.
My recollection is that the mist common issue was power to run pumps, and that power could (and did) get knocked out by dive bombing hits on both US and japanese carriers. The US could afford more and better backup/secondary power generators, though, and had more in the way of portable firefighting gear and people trained to use it.
In Akagi's case, Dick Best landed his 1000 pounder right on the midships elevator, which meant the bomb blast almost certainly took out the fireproof curtain (mounted right behind the elevator) that was meant to section off hanger fires, as well as rupturiing the compressed CO2 tanks that were supposed to feed the unpowered fire supression system. After that they only had hoses, and with the wrecked elevator well allowing the flames to spread to another deck within minutes, it was basically a lost cause.
This is the sort of critical hit that fiction is hesitant to try and sell because it's so outrageous.
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Probably because they will get accused of bad writing, and OP Mary Sue type of shenanigans therefore get scared of trying it.
Akagi's death was not very pleasant indeed, and her spirit during the Abyssal War probably doesn't remember it PTSD Amnesia style.
Mega1987
A TTK somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
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although the anime made her final moments apparently a recurring nightmare for Akagi... IMO