Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

I'm not sure how many changes Thompson was able to make, considering the time and resources he had to do so.

Whatever happens, I would think the USN is generally in a better position now compared to its historical self. Then, it's a matter of time before they bring their full force of industry to bear on the IJN.
 
Or Thompson could use the TBDs to highlight the failures of the current US torpedo. Almost finished with Shattered Sword, but it is interesting that the only successful US torpedo attack on the IJN at Midway was made by a PBY...

"We've confirmed six hit against the enemy carriers, but all torpedoes failed to detonate..."

Even Nautilus failed to sink a flattop at Midway after having her fish either miss or 'scratch the paint'...

As for DC at least one Japanese DC officer got it right, which is why Mogami survived the battle...

And since the Thatch Weave is getting an early debut, I wonder if the 'Big Blue Blanket' is next...
 
Not to derail the thread again, but since it's Pacific War-related, I thought y'all would find this pretty cool. Went to an event in Jackson, MS this past weekend called the Trail of Honor. It's a function put on every year by the Harley Davidson dealership there that honors veterans of every conflict the U.S. has been involved in. While there I got probably the greatest honor I have ever received. This is a pic of me with 102-year-old retired LTC Richard "Dick" Cole. He is the last surviving Doolittle Raider, and was GEN Doolittle's personal copilot. You never forget meeting living history, and I know I'll definitely never forget this moment.

 
He did already during the pre-war fleet problems. Not a lot happened.
He did point out the problems with the aerial torpedoes even if he was blocked to expand the research to the surface and submarine versions. By this point we can assume that every torpedo in his Task Force as well as in Halsey's will be combat ready with an acceptable margin of error, for now that will have to be enough.

But the moment the doubts about the torpedoes start coming from other commands its almost certain that he will burn through his political capital to force tests of every aspect of the fishes that he knows are vulnerable. And if he wins Wake and do a good enough job during the following months his political capital will be enough to get this mess sorted out way faster than in the OTL.
 
The Devestator is going to be quickly going on it's way out as soon as heavy combat begins, only a little over a hundred were built in the first place. Midway involved something like about a third of all Devestators built.

If there aren't enough SBD's to go around they can probably scrounge up some Vindicators instead.

There were Vindicators at Midway being used by Marine aviators problem is that Vindicators are old and crap. New they can keep up with SBDs but the ones left are in really bad shape. Not to mention the crews of those Vindicators were very green so much so that they were called "The greenest group ever assembled for combat." IIRC.
 
There were Vindicators at Midway being used by Marine aviators problem is that Vindicators are old and crap. New they can keep up with SBDs but the ones left are in really bad shape. Not to mention the crews of those Vindicators were very green so much so that they were called "The greenest group ever assembled for combat." IIRC.
I'm not contesting that, merely pointing out that there are other aircraft available for use as dive bombers if there aren't enough SBD's. The same cannot be said for the TBD's, which I believe are the only 100 odd carrier capable torpedo bombers the US has at this point and until the Avenger shows up around June.
 
The Devestator is going to be quickly going on it's way out as soon as heavy combat begins, only a little over a hundred were built in the first place. Midway involved something like about a third of all Devestators built.

If there aren't enough SBD's to go around they can probably scrounge up some Vindicators instead.

True, but the problem is that Pearl Harbor attrited the available planes in Hawaii badly (surprise attack, less experienced USN/USMC pilots, etc.) and this is very shortly after Pearl, so they probably have not been able to shift stateside reserves to Hawaii yet. Therefore, unless the air group reorganization took place pre-war, it has not taken place for this battle since Sara and E are being sent out to Wake with a short turnaround period.

Now, once the flaws in the Devastator become apparent either here or at Coral Sea/Midway, then the Avenger will get fast-tracked as the replacement for the TBD while more SBDs fill in the holes.

Also regarding communications I bet Thompson did a lot of the background work already. He is from the future, so most of the special nomeclature and protocols formulated after decades of hard practical lessons will be drilled into the pilots and comm officers to prevent lethal misunderstandings, improve coordination and avoid gaps in information between the ships and the air groups. Also he must have tweaked the chain of command to ensure the best possible use of the CAG and introducing other positions such as the Deputy CAG and a permanent staff (a command structure of the 80's).

True. The USN in this AU will be further along the road to integrated air defense than existed IOTL thanks to his efforts. That said, they are probably still ironing out the bugs in the systems he is implementing, and Sara and E are further along than say Wasp or Hornet. One additional thing that he probably pushed for is support for the USN's 'lessons learned' process that was able to adjust doctrine to improve damcon by figuring out what went wrong and spreading it through the fleet. Case in point, knowing what killed Lady Lex at Coral Sea (filled avgas plumbing) saved Franklin in 1945 (only one of her gasoline systems was unsecured when she was hit, and that was because it was in use, that prevented her burning all the way up).

I'm not contesting that, merely pointing out that there are other aircraft available for use as dive bombers if there aren't enough SBD's. The same cannot be said for the TBD's, which I believe are the only 100 odd carrier capable torpedo bombers the US has at this point and until the Avenger shows up around June.

True, but my argument is at this point in the timeline (one to two weeks after Pearl) what Sara and E had prewar is pretty much all they will have until resources are shipped to the Pacific for them.

Does the USN have more planes available at NAS San Diego, NAS Norfolk, NAS Pensacola and so on? Sure they do. Will more SBDs, Avengers, F4F and so on be produced to make good losses and give the carriers a large supply of spare aircraft? You bet they will!

HOWEVER, since the distance from California to Hawaii is double the one-way range of the carrier aircraft, that means the only way to get those planes to Pearl is to ship them. Specifically put them on a ship and sail to Hawaii. This takes more time than has passed for Thompson and company. That, in turn means that the available spare aircraft in theater are those which survived the Pearl Harbor attack and can be repaired in 48-96 hours before Sara, E, and the Wake Relief Force sets sail to fight in Second Wake. That is probably not all that many.

Now give the Navy three months or so, and prewar forces will be shifted to the Pacific while the spigot of American Wartime Industry is turned full blast. Give the Navy three years and you could damn near sink Oahu with the weight of new-build logistics produced 1942-1944 to support the Pacific. They just are not at that point yet, although it will come sooner than later.
 
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I'm not contesting that, merely pointing out that there are other aircraft available for use as dive bombers if there aren't enough SBD's. The same cannot be said for the TBD's, which I believe are the only 100 odd carrier capable torpedo bombers the US has at this point and until the Avenger shows up around June.

The TBF-1 did in fact serve at Midway OTL. Hornet was slated to have her TBDs replaced by the new torpedo bombers but when the battle occurred only six had been assigned, this VT-8 detachment flew out of Midway Island and attacked the Japanese Carriers without fighter escort (this is because VMF-211 was at the time, getting it's teeth smashed in by the escorts of an incoming Japanese airstrike). Out of the six planes only one returned and it was shot to pieces:



Damage included the ball turret being shredded which killed the ball turret gunner, the hydrualic system was damaged which caused the tail wheel to drop and also meant the flaps and bomb bay couldn't be operated, although this happened after the bomb bay was opened, the compass was destroyed, and the radio operator/belly gunner was injured as well. The plane had been hit sixty-four times by 7.7mm machine gun fire and nine twenty millimeter cannon rounds, which when you think about how many cannon rounds hit this Avenger it's amazing that it didn't fall out of the sky. The plane was deemed a total loss however from damage.

Source: http://www.midway42.org/Midway_AAR/tbf-detach.pdf
 
The TBF-1 did in fact serve at Midway OTL. Hornet was slated to have her TBDs replaced by the new torpedo bombers but when the battle occurred only six had been assigned, this VT-8 detachment flew out of Midway Island and attacked the Japanese Carriers without fighter escort (this is because VMF-211 was at the time, getting it's teeth smashed in by the escorts of an incoming Japanese airstrike). Out of the six planes only one returned and it was shot to pieces:



Damage included the ball turret being shredded which killed the ball turret gunner, the hydrualic system was damaged which caused the tail wheel to drop and also meant the flaps and bomb bay couldn't be operated, although this happened after the bomb bay was opened, the compass was destroyed, and the radio operator/belly gunner was injured as well. The plane had been hit sixty-four times by 7.7mm machine gun fire and nine twenty millimeter cannon rounds, which when you think about how many cannon rounds hit this Avenger it's amazing that it didn't fall out of the sky. The plane was deemed a total loss however from damage.

Source: http://www.midway42.org/Midway_AAR/tbf-detach.pdf
I know this, hence why I said around June, which is when Midway occured.
 
I'm not sure that Sara can see what her pilots do. Notice this, emphasis mine:



What I'm seeing is that Sara gets radio communication with her pilots and can act as a fighter director/communications hub. But notice that Thatch had to call Sara and she was asking him for info that she could see for herself if she could 'see through her pilots' eyes' (Namely "Any Japanese Planes left? Which way did they go?"). I think that she can probably sense rough distance and bearing of her aircraft at most and might be able to tell if a plane is lost (which would give a rough area where enemies are if it gets shot down). I'm pretty sure Sara can 'perceive' what her radar sees for surface search/air search as well.



Absolutely, although I suspect that the more SBD/F4F less TBD loadout will have to wait for a few months, since I am not sure that Pearl has the spare aircraft to do that just yet, especially immediately after the attack. Thompson and Richardson would have to fight a battle with the folks in DC to get them to adjust that pre-war. Now, in a few months, then yes there should be enough planes available to go to the mid-war carrier airwing composition (basically before the F6F/F4U and other second generation carrier planes were introduced) while the torpedo issue is worked on. But this early on, I don't think that he has the spare aircraft to do that just yet.

Probably the biggest things are purging the avgas lines and dealing with paint and other flammables for DamCon (plus encouraging captains to intensively train their DC crews with the assistance of the girl who can tell the crew exactly what is wrong) and the Thatch weave/FDO fighter tactics. Unfortunately, both will be put to the test at Second Wake.
Kind of. While getting more fighters would be difficult, getting more SBDs should be entirely feasible, since they entered mass production years earlier and weren't exclusive to carriers.
 
Kind of. While getting more fighters would be difficult, getting more SBDs should be entirely feasible, since they entered mass production years earlier and weren't exclusive to carriers.

True, but even with the Japanese having tougher sledding at Pearl Harbor, I suspect that the airfields were hit fairly hard since Thomson's influence would be limited on the ground airfield side of things, especially with the USAAC. As I pointed out, right now what survived Pearl is all that is available for immediate use on Sara and E.

IOTL, the USN/USMC/USAAC had 402 aircraft in Hawaii on December 7th, 188 were destroyed and 159 damaged (155 on the ground). Even if we say that Thompson's actions cut aircraft losses in half (wildly optimistic, I'd give the decrease for aircraft casualties by 20-25% tops), that is still over 50% of the available SBDs/F4Fs stationed at Pearl rendered unavailable for immediate service. I don't know how many carrier-capable aircraft were stationed at Pearl then, but I would assume a small working reserve to replace airplanes and crew lost during training or by mishap.

Now, those losses will be made good within a month or two as aircraft units are emergency transferred from CONUS basing to Pearl/San Diego/Bremerton plus Yorktown and eventually Hornet head to the Pacific. Right now, for Second Wake we do not have access to those planes and aircrew (yet) so at this point in time, the USN is hitting the nadir of the aircraft strength in the Pacific. That will change in a month or so when new aircrew can be shipped to Hawaii to replace losses, and will definitely change by mid-1942 when mass production of aircraft really starts hitting its stride.

Unfortunately, we have to fight the carrier battle with the fleet and aircraft complement we have in mid-December 1941 rather than the fleet that we will have in late-December 1941 to February 1942, much less the monster that the USN was in 1943-44 when wartime production really hit fifth gear.
 
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10 Buffalos, 4 Wildcats, 24 Dauntlesses, 2 Devestators by my count. Plus some F3F's, but they're biplanes so...

Thank you!

So probably a dozen Dauntlesses or so along with a few spare Wildcats/Devastators available best case after Pearl. The Buffalos are second line and badly outclassed right now, and the F3F even more so. That's not a lot of backup aircraft now, although as I noted, there will be transfers to Pearl from the CONUS along with increased production.
 
True, but the problem is that Pearl Harbor attrited the available planes in Hawaii badly (surprise attack, less experienced USN/USMC pilots, etc.) and this is very shortly after Pearl, so they probably have not been able to shift stateside reserves to Hawaii yet. Therefore, unless the air group reorganization took place pre-war, it has not taken place for this battle since Sara and E are being sent out to Wake with a short turnaround period.

Now, once the flaws in the Devastator become apparent either here or at Coral Sea/Midway, then the Avenger will get fast-tracked as the replacement for the TBD while more SBDs fill in the holes.



True. The USN in this AU will be further along the road to integrated air defense than existed IOTL thanks to his efforts. That said, they are probably still ironing out the bugs in the systems he is implementing, and Sara and E are further along than say Wasp or Hornet. One additional thing that he probably pushed for is support for the USN's 'lessons learned' process that was able to adjust doctrine to improve damcon by figuring out what went wrong and spreading it through the fleet. Case in point, knowing what killed Lady Lex at Coral Sea (filled avgas plumbing) saved Franklin in 1945 (only one of her gasoline systems was unsecured when she was hit, and that was because it was in use, that prevented her burning all the way up).



True, but my argument is at this point in the timeline (one to two weeks after Pearl) what Sara and E had prewar is pretty much all they will have until resources are shipped to the Pacific for them.

Does the USN have more planes available at NAS San Diego, NAS Norfolk, NAS Pensacola and so on? Sure they do. Will more SBDs, Avengers, F4F and so on be produced to make good losses and give the carriers a large supply of spare aircraft? You bet they will!

HOWEVER, since the distance from California to Hawaii is double the one-way range of the carrier aircraft, that means the only way to get those planes to Pearl is to ship them. Specifically put them on a ship and sail to Hawaii. This takes more time than has passed for Thompson and company. That, in turn means that the available spare aircraft in theater are those which survived the Pearl Harbor attack and can be repaired in 48-96 hours before Sara, E, and the Wake Relief Force sets sail to fight in Second Wake. That is probably not all that many.

Now give the Navy three months or so, and prewar forces will be shifted to the Pacific while the spigot of American Wartime Industry is turned full blast. Give the Navy three years and you could damn near sink Oahu with the weight of new-build logistics produced 1942-1944 to support the Pacific. They just are not at that point yet, although it will come sooner than later.

"Go sir, gallop, and don't forget that the world was made in six days. You can ask me for anything you like, except time."

Napoleon Bonaparte
 
Here's a question. How big will the US navy's budget have to become to maintain the fleet after the war since scraping or using ships as targets no has some uncomfortable moral implications now that the knowledge that ships have souls is spreading? Especially once the knowledge reaches the general public.
 
Here's a question. How big will the US navy's budget have to become to maintain the fleet after the war since scraping or using ships as targets no has some uncomfortable moral implications now that the knowledge that ships have souls is spreading? Especially once the knowledge reaches the general public.
Well, I can see a lot more WWII ships becoming museum ships. I also could definitely see the Navy having to help foot the bill to keep those ships maintained, or the Federal Government footing same. If they didn't, all it would take is a bit of public outcry, and possibly some Soviet propaganda about treating their ships better, to make avoiding that a political suicide.
 
Here's a question. How big will the US navy's budget have to become to maintain the fleet after the war since scraping or using ships as targets no has some uncomfortable moral implications now that the knowledge that ships have souls is spreading? Especially once the knowledge reaches the general public.
Well, I can see a lot more WWII ships becoming museum ships. I also could definitely see the Navy having to help foot the bill to keep those ships maintained, or the Federal Government footing same. If they didn't, all it would take is a bit of public outcry, and possibly some Soviet propaganda about treating their ships better, to make avoiding that a political suicide.
It will depend of the development of the Cold War because no matter how much people like the shipgirls they like even more being free and alive, and a few hundred girls who need millions in maintenance money while contributing very little for the defense of the western democracies is not going to be fiscally feasible after the Korean War.

And that's without taking into account the budget wars between the Navy and the Air Force, with the additional expenses of trying to keep afloat and funtional the entire Essex fleet plus as many WWII veterans as possible their ability to get the Congress to authorize the Forrestal is going to be even less than in RL so the post-war fleet is going to be the first to try to find ways of getting rid of the finantial cost of supporting the shipgirls, outcry or no outcry.
 
It will depend of the development of the Cold War because no matter how much people like the shipgirls they like even more being free and alive, and a few hundred girls who need millions in maintenance money while contributing very little for the defense of the western democracies is not going to be fiscally feasible after the Korean War.

And that's without taking into account the budget wars between the Navy and the Air Force, with the additional expenses of trying to keep afloat and funtional the entire Essex fleet plus as many WWII veterans as possible their ability to get the Congress to authorize the Forrestal is going to be even less than in RL so the post-war fleet is going to be the first to try to find ways of getting rid of the finantial cost of supporting the shipgirls, outcry or no outcry.
I foresee lots of work going into detaching the girls from their hulls.
 
It also depends on how Sky writes shipgirls reacting to scrapping. They could be okay with it, or most emphatically NOT OKAY with it.
 
I foresee lots of work going into detaching the girls from their hulls.
Good candidates for testing this would likely be the Constellation and Hartford. As Civil War veterans, time spent testing this and any adverse effects on the ship itself would have a negligible impact on the fighting power of the USN. Constellation has the bonus of being the relief flagship for the Atlantic fleet commander in chief until mid-1942.
 
The US could gift the problem away by giving away to every available friendly nation as many fleet ships as possible. Very few countries in the world are going to say no to a free light cruiser or escort carrier (despite being white elephants in a post-war world) and once they are out of the publis eye scrapping them is going to be easier than if they were still flying an american flag.
 
The US could gift the problem away by giving away to every available friendly nation as many fleet ships as possible. Very few countries in the world are going to say no to a free light cruiser or escort carrier (despite being white elephants in a post-war world) and once they are out of the publis eye scrapping them is going to be easier than if they were still flying an american flag.
Giving or selling the ships away to another country would likely be contentious in the post-war period for similar implications. The minor nations also can't crew the sheer number of surplus destroyer escorts and escort carriers alone, even if they want them.

Indefinite mothballing however continues the time-honored tradition of kicking a problem down the road.
 
Giving or selling the ships away to another country would likely be contentious in the post-war period for similar implications. The minor nations also can't crew the sheer number of surplus destroyer escorts and escort carriers alone, even if they want them.

Indefinite mothballing however continues the time-honored tradition of kicking a problem down the road.
Mothballing might be even worse if the shipgirl does not fall into an automatic coma during their stay on the inactive reserve fleet. Depending on how good is the maintenance the shipgirl in question might be feeling how she is slowly rotting away while being completely useless to her country.
 
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