Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Counterpoints:

The Channel Dash. VV refusing to sink despite taking more or less the same hit that doomed PoW. Warspite tanking Fritz X hits. The entire Battle of Jutland. Seydlitz being the Unsinkable CC.


It's not that DDs have more legendary feats, necessarily, so much as it is you see them being pushed up more than others. There's just as many ignomious DDs as there are BBs.

You just don't hear about those, because it's easier to poke fun at the Big Dumb BB/CC.
 
Counterpoints:

The Channel Dash. VV refusing to sink despite taking more or less the same hit that doomed PoW. Warspite tanking Fritz X hits. The entire Battle of Jutland. Seydlitz being the Unsinkable CC.


It's not that DDs have more legendary feats, necessarily, so much as it is you see them being pushed up more than others. There's just as many ignomious DDs as there are BBs.

You just don't hear about those, because it's easier to poke fun at the Big Dumb BB/CC.


True, I guess what makes it all the more noticeable is that we can pat the DD's on the head and say that they did what we asked them to and they tried their best, and yet the BB's seem destined for greatness, and yet because of that same expectation can only bring disappointment.

I didn't mention the CC's 'cause I lacked enough information either way to craft an argument.
 
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The age of the battleship ended when the first attack plane flew off of the first flight deck of a converted (or purpose built in Hoshou's case) ship. They just didn't get the memo until later on.

Japan and Yamamoto for all their failings knew that well before any other nation. They just didn't have the industry to corner the market, so to speak.

Untrue. It took quite some time between the beginning of Naval Aviation and when Naval planes capable of carrying the necessary payload to kill a BB.

Also, Japan was stuck on the notion that a battleship confrontation would decide the war, and regarded carriers as raiders.
 
It's not that DDs have more legendary feats, necessarily, so much as it is you see them being pushed up more than others. There's just as many ignomious DDs as there are BBs.

You just don't hear about those, because it's easier to poke fun at the Big Dumb BB/CC.
True, I guess what makes it all the more noticeable is that we can pat the DD's on the head and say that they did what we asked them to and they tried their best, and yet the BB's seem destined for greatness, and yet because of that same expectation can only bring disappointment.

I didn't mention the CC's 'cause I lacked enough information either way to craft an argument.

Well in part because DDs are expected to be expendable tin cans. No one blames USS Barton for lasting seven minutes in Guadacanal 1 before getting blown in half and going down with heavy loss of life because what do you expect when she's up against superior numbers of enemy ships? The ones that either got expended in a blaze of glory (Laffey One, the Taffies, Campbeltown, Glowworm) or managed to survive against the odds (Laffey Two) are the ones that everyone remembers. Also since there are so many DDs built and most of them do the necessary but boring and low-glory roles like ASW hunter-killer groups, convoy escorts, plane guard, and so on, it's only the ones that do things for good or bad (Willie D) that get remembered.

There are a lot fewer BBs built and as such people remember them more because they are a major investment and expected to make a difference in naval warfare.
 
There are a lot fewer BBs built and as such people remember them more because they are a major investment and expected to make a difference in naval warfare.

And when they do screw up, well, it seems like they do a good impression of a trophy every other class is fighting to mount on their walls. I'm just confused on how they went from the fortresses of the sea to the line at the end of a history paragraph in about the same timeframe.
 
Just tried to join the discord and found the link timed out. Can someone please send me a fresh link?
 
And now for something amusing:


(the Azur Lane designs, clearly)

Translation-according-to-'booru:

Zuikaku: "Come on, fight me one more time!"

Enterprise: "Alright, I get it, so cut it out already. You're stretching my clothes."
 
Also, Japan was stuck on the notion that a battleship confrontation would decide the war, and regarded carriers as raiders.

Indeed, the battle plan at Midway was for the carriers to soften up the US fleet, and then the Main Force, with the big battleships, would move forward to finish the job.

Not only that, but the Unryu-class were designed for commerce raiding behind enemy lines!! Quite possibly one of the most spectacular examples of poor weapon selection in history.
 
Personally I have a terribly low opinion of Mountbatten due to being Canadian and remembering him for the bloody Dieppe Raid that was to a large part, his fault. I'd rather we stay away from him b/c he was terribly controversial for this.

And a number of Burmese, Indian and Australian friends have a correspondingly high opinion of him and his work with Slim during the Impahl-Kohima campaign and the liberation of Burma.
 
It should be also noted that up until the end of the war carriers had serious issues projecting their aerial strength at night and in bad weather. The possibility of a fast battleship force sprinting up to a carrier group under the cover of night was a possibility that had to be considered up until every Japanese, German, and Italian battleship was either interned or sitting on the seabed.

The true obsoleting of battleships, as opposed to obsolescence, came immediately postwar, when there simply weren't anymore surface combatants worthy of throwing a battleship at compared to the far cheaper heavy cruisers the US, at least, still had in numbers. ASW, anti-air, and land attack were the priorities and could be better and/or more cheaply done via carrier or smaller surface combatant, and the development of anti-ship missiles simply sealed the deal.
 

And they look pretty damn competitive.
@Skywalker_T-65 your favorite FBBs are looking quite good in world of boats.


This is spoilered since its a bit off topic, but I know sky enjoys his pasta botes.
 
It should be also noted that up until the end of the war carriers had serious issues projecting their aerial strength at night and in bad weather. The possibility of a fast battleship force sprinting up to a carrier group under the cover of night was a possibility that had to be considered up until every Japanese, German, and Italian battleship was either interned or sitting on the seabed.

The true obsoleting of battleships, as opposed to obsolescence, came immediately postwar, when there simply weren't anymore surface combatants worthy of throwing a battleship at compared to the far cheaper heavy cruisers the US, at least, still had in numbers. ASW, anti-air, and land attack were the priorities and could be better and/or more cheaply done via carrier or smaller surface combatant, and the development of anti-ship missiles simply sealed the deal.
Indeed, the threat of a surface force built around fast capital/semicapital ships attacking a carrier group at night or just after dawn (having closed at night) was considered enough of a threat that the US Navy built not one, but two different classes of warship specifically to counter that threat--the Alaska-class "large cruisers," and the Iowa-class battleships. Both were specifically designed to get capital ship firepower into a package that was fast enough to keep up with the carriers. (Indeed, the Iowas were considered such a special-purpose design that the US Navy intended to revert to the same 28 knot top speed as their other Fast Battleships for the Montana class, which was intended to basically be the "new Standard battleship," so to speak, with the treaty-limited NCs and SDs moving into the scouting force to replace the pre-Standards while the Montanas replaced the Standards.)

Norman Friedman makes a good argument that the battleship wasn't even obsolescent after Taranto and Pearl Harbor, but rather not until Germany deployed the Fritz-X guided bomb; his argument goes that, until an FX-1400 sank Roma in 1943, the only battleships ever sunk by aircraft were severely restricted in their ability to maneuver (Taranto, Pearl), or flat-out incompetently handled with useless air defenses (Force Z). Once Fritz-X made it feasible to use high-altitude drops of armor-piercing bombs capable of penetrating a battleship's armor deck against a ship at sea (i.e., able to watch for the bomb release and then turn to spoil the aim), the battleship was doomed, but until then, sinking a battleship at sea with airpower alone would require ridiculous levels of overwhelming force that, historically, only the US Navy proved capable of mobilizing (and that only against the Yamatos); high-altitude level bombers could deliver AP bombs with enough speed to penetrate the deck armor, but only with so much "dead time" after bomb release that the target could evade, while dive bombers could accurately put bombs on target, but without sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the deck armor, and torpedo bombers had the fun of combining the "dead time" of level bombers with the genuine possibility that the battleship's underwater protection would defeat the torpedoes even if they hit. Guided bombs, however, eliminated the "dead time" of the level bomber's problem by being able to steer to correct for evasion attempts, plus having the bonus of providing some standoff distance (they were the first glide bombs) that enhanced the ability of the bomber to survive the attack; it was quite reasonable to state that they, more than anything else, made the battleship vulnerable to air attack.
 
Also you have to remember in terms of surface combat a destroyer at best fighting another destroyer and anything else should beat it soundly. Battleships are meant to be the bullies on the block, so when they aren't it tends to be more noticeable.
 
Indeed, the threat of a surface force built around fast capital/semicapital ships attacking a carrier group at night or just after dawn (having closed at night) was considered enough of a threat that the US Navy built not one, but two different classes of warship specifically to counter that threat--the Alaska-class "large cruisers," and the Iowa-class battleships. Both were specifically designed to get capital ship firepower into a package that was fast enough to keep up with the carriers. (Indeed, the Iowas were considered such a special-purpose design that the US Navy intended to revert to the same 28 knot top speed as their other Fast Battleships for the Montana class, which was intended to basically be the "new Standard battleship," so to speak, with the treaty-limited NCs and SDs moving into the scouting force to replace the pre-Standards while the Montanas replaced the Standards.)

Norman Friedman makes a good argument that the battleship wasn't even obsolescent after Taranto and Pearl Harbor, but rather not until Germany deployed the Fritz-X guided bomb; his argument goes that, until an FX-1400 sank Roma in 1943, the only battleships ever sunk by aircraft were severely restricted in their ability to maneuver (Taranto, Pearl), or flat-out incompetently handled with useless air defenses (Force Z). Once Fritz-X made it feasible to use high-altitude drops of armor-piercing bombs capable of penetrating a battleship's armor deck against a ship at sea (i.e., able to watch for the bomb release and then turn to spoil the aim), the battleship was doomed, but until then, sinking a battleship at sea with airpower alone would require ridiculous levels of overwhelming force that, historically, only the US Navy proved capable of mobilizing (and that only against the Yamatos); high-altitude level bombers could deliver AP bombs with enough speed to penetrate the deck armor, but only with so much "dead time" after bomb release that the target could evade, while dive bombers could accurately put bombs on target, but without sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the deck armor, and torpedo bombers had the fun of combining the "dead time" of level bombers with the genuine possibility that the battleship's underwater protection would defeat the torpedoes even if they hit. Guided bombs, however, eliminated the "dead time" of the level bomber's problem by being able to steer to correct for evasion attempts, plus having the bonus of providing some standoff distance (they were the first glide bombs) that enhanced the ability of the bomber to survive the attack; it was quite reasonable to state that they, more than anything else, made the battleship vulnerable to air attack.

If I'm reading you correctly, if a competent CIWS system was developed at roughly the same time (for the sake of argument), then the battleship would not have been rendered obsolescent even in the post-war era (aside from the whole part where only the US was actually capable of fielding a navy at that point).

In a hypothetical scenario where naval guided weapons development lagged and the USSR was able to somehow start fielding a significant naval force, the battleship would have remained a critical component of the USN.
 
If I'm reading you correctly, if a competent CIWS system was developed at roughly the same time (for the sake of argument), then the battleship would not have been rendered obsolescent even in the post-war era (aside from the whole part where only the US was actually capable of fielding a navy at that point).

In a hypothetical scenario where naval guided weapons development lagged and the USSR was able to somehow start fielding a significant naval force, the battleship would have remained a critical component of the USN.

To a certain point yes. Eventually carrier doctrine and aircraft technology would have caught up to the point where you have all-weather strike aircraft which could launch in nighttime or bad weather conditions. So that hypothetical would have delayed the obsolescence of the battleship to a certain point, but the big gun ship would gradually become more and more niche.

EDIT-remember by 1945 the USN was experimenting with night carrier operations, for instance. Once you manage to do that and assure 24/7 surveillance coverage, probably with airborne search radar, you can make the battleship group approaches carrier group attempt to be as dangerous to the battleships at night as it would be in daylight.
 
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To a certain point yes. Eventually carrier doctrine and aircraft technology would have caught up to the point where you have all-weather strike aircraft which could launch in nighttime or bad weather conditions. So that hypothetical would have delayed the obsolescence of the battleship to a certain point, but the big gun ship would gradually become more and more niche.

EDIT-remember by 1945 the USN was experimenting with night carrier operations, for instance. Once you manage to do that and assure 24/7 surveillance coverage, probably with airborne search radar, you can make the battleship group approaches carrier group attempt to be as dangerous to the battleships at night as it would be in daylight.

True. However, even in Vietnam, night attacks were iffy. Not until the 1980s were things really well-developed.
 
My best guess is that even had a viable CIWS been developed during WW2, the battleship as a type would have been dead, simply because of the way that the Pacific War played out and let the aircraft carrier gain ascendancy over the "gun club." Remember, the US Navy's experiments with surface-to-air missiles began in 1944, and were not, as many believe, a response to the kamikaze, but rather to the Fritz-X; the goal was to be able to shoot down bombers carrying guided weapons before they could get close enough (~15-20 miles) to release them. As soon as the missile was semi-functional (the "3-T" systems were disastrously bad when first fielded and didn't get reliable until McNamara spent a fortune on a "get-well" program for them in the 60s that actually required killing development of their original successor), missile advocates, along with the aviation types, declared the gun to be obsolete, resulting in a number of US ships being commissioned with no real guns at all. (For example, Long Beach and the Leahy-class DLGs were originally built with only a small number of 40mm-and-smaller guns to deal with possible small boat attack; when Kennedy, after witnessing the disastrous 3-T demonstration in 1961, ordered that all missile ships be equipped with at least two effective guns as a backup, Long Beach had to have a pair of single 5"/38s grafted onto her, while the Leahys, with no space for such a weapon, ended up having some of the 3"/50RF guns dug up out of mothballs and bolted on in place of their 40mms.)

(Yes, there were people who objected to this. For example, the Marines, who wanted to know how in hell an all-missile ship could support an amphibious landing; there were also people who wondered what would happen if an all-missile ship not attached to a carrier group were to run into any sort of surface opponent equipped with... well, pretty much any anti-ship weapon, since budget limitations resulted in the Navy cancelling its development of anti-ship missiles in the late 40s and not resuming it until starting work on Harpoon in the late 60s. The response to both of these arguments was, "Oh, that's not a problem, we can just fire Nuclear Terrier at surface targets!" Unanswered was the question of what the hell they'd do in a less-than-nuclear conflict...)

Now, had Pearl gone differently, allowing the battleships to be used more in the early parts of the war and thus show that they still had viable uses, it's plausible that the battleship, as a type, wouldn't have been essentially dead after WW2. Indeed, it's likely that Hawaii and Kentucky (and possibly Illinois) would have been completed to their missile ship designs, and that the rest of the Alaskas and Iowas would have remained in active service for the remainder of their design lives (i.e., up until 1970-1975ish) without any extended mothballings; while the "Big Five" would have probably been disposed of as in OTL (1958-60), the North Carolinas and SoDaks probably would have been retained in reserve longer. However, I don't see any real chance of any new construction of capital or semicapital ships being likely; the USN already had enough such ships and, when the Alaskas and Iowas came to the end of their service lives, if it was felt that "heavy escorts" were still necessary for the carriers, the NCs and SDs would be sitting there in mothballs, able to be resurrected. (While less than ideal for carrier heavy escorts, they would have been vastly cheaper to revive than new construction, and in the tight budgetary climate of the post-Vietnam era, that is a major consideration.) The only design I see being plausibly built as replacements in the heavy escort role would be the "Strike Cruiser" of the 1970s that very nearly got built IOTL; it would have been a viable "heavy escort" for carriers in that it was to be armored to a similar degree to WW2 cruisers and thus could absorb some punishment while remaining combat-effective. (Irony: OTL, the justification for the CSGN was that modern warships were not suitable for operations detached from carrier groups, as they didn't have ballistic protection sufficient to allow them to viably operate without air support. In this timeline, the CSGN's justification would be to protect carrier groups from such things as the remaining Sverdlov-class light cruisers!)

(I have, in the past, done some work towards trying to figure out an alternate history that would have battleship development and construction continue through the end of the 20th Century. The only real viable option I came up with to justify it was using some very handwavy excuses to claim that failures in early experiments with arming airplanes were so disastrous that the very concept of armed airplanes became toxic and "non-career enhancing" for young officers--that's right, I basically could only justify the battleship remaining a going concern in the world's navies past 1945 by eliminating armed airplanes entirely.)
 
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In 1942, the Canadians betrayed their beloved icon, sending her off to an ignominious end in the Caribbean. This is the story of that day. The last day Bluenose was seen in Lunenberg.

Omake: One Last Dawn In Lunenberg

The wharf was practically deserted, a far cry from what it had been just a decade ago. Where once schooners lined the docks, with a buzz of activity around them, now only derelicts sat in their place. Near the end stood two people, next to one schooner in particular. At first glance the vessel looked no different than any of the others tied up. She was just as shabby looking, her topmasts put away giving her a rather squat appearance.

A man stood close to her bow, resting a gentle hand on the smooth black surface. He appeared in good shape for a man in his early 60s. He had a thick shock of white hair, covered by a captain's cap. He was dressed simply, they both were. In keeping with so many others throughout the village. The woman was younger and considerably more beautiful. She had long flowing blue hair that was just beginning to silver around the temples. Broad shouldered, with muscular arms that suggested a life of hard labor. She stood close in height to the man she was with. The man she loved with all her heart. The man who was now forced to sell her.

Angus Walters was a man who spoke with his hands. Especially when he was agitated or stressed. His voice would become shrill but he made a conscious effort to keep it down. He was one of the few who could see her after all. For her part, Bluenose was trying to keep focused on what he was saying. But those hands. They could be so soft, so gentle when they caressed her, especially after that last race. Just the feel of them on her... she stopped herself. Focus, right. She was a schooner damnit! She didn't do focus but for Angus she would try. For Angus she would do anything!

"...I have no right to ask for your forgiveness. But I can't keep you here and the Yanks made a good offer. But it's not fair! Maybe if I pushed a little more. I saved you once, I could do it again. Maybe, I don't know. I know this must seem like a betrayal, selling you out to those Yanks. Their offer isn't worth you. I'm betraying you and..."

His hands were stilled when she brought her own up to cover them. She clasped them gently, holding them at half an arms length, not bringing them closer, yet.

"That's enough Angus." She said gently.

"But I wasn't finished!" He protested.

"Ah, when you start repeating yourself I know you are. You just want to delay my response. You're afraid I will hate you. I will reject you when you already know my answer."

He met her soft blue gaze. "How?" He rasped in a voice choked with emotion. "How can you not?"

She didn't answer for a moment, chosing instead to bring one of their hands up. The backs of her knuckles brushed his cheek and he tilted his head into it.

After a minute, she spoke. "You are my Captain. The only captain I have ever known and will know. The others who come now..." she took a breath. "What You did, have done, hurts. I won't deny that. But it hurts more that it forces me from you. Do not think you betrayed me. Not for one second! You did what you had to. For you and your family. These are hard times for all and will only get harder. I'm just a ship who's too much of a prima dona to maintain."

"But you are my ship." He half sobbed.

"So I am." She smiled. "And so I shall remain."

Then looking around to make sure they were alone she closed the small distance between them. Letting go of his hands, she wrapped her arms around his neck and pressed their lips together.

They held one another there for several minutes. There was no roughness about it, no fierce passion on display. This was a bittersweet goodbye between a couple that had known all the joys and sorrows of life and had lived through them together.

Bluenose detected her new owners' approach first. Gently untangling her hands from Angus' hair she pulled back to look him in the eye. They were both crying now. Tears staining their faces. Bluenose bit back a sob, her heart aching as she saw her captain's agony. And there was nothing she could do to help.

"Remember what I said. Remember me and don't close yourself off. People will want to know someday and you'll be there to tell the stories." She said.

"When this War is over, I will find you." He promised. Neither mentioned the other possibilities that could occur in the meantime.

She gave him one last kiss. "Goodbye, my captain."

Her fingers slipped from his as surely as the hull of the Bluenose slipped her chains and set her bow to the open sea. Never to return.

Angus watched her go until she vanished out of sight, a part of his soul going with her.
 
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Going a little bit off-topic here, but I think that Enterprise has her own entry in the Korean SCP Wiki here. I'm surprised, and curious at the same time.

(Note: For those who can read Korean, don't be surprised at what you are about to read.)
 
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