Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Glorious could carry 48 smaller planes, so if she was to have more modern aircraft, her compliment will be smaller, and split up between fighters, bombers and recon planes. The Japanese threw 85 bombers at Force Z, and Force Z can't send up enough planes to match that, especially against Japanese skill. I also don't foresee Glorious getting away as I'd expect for her to be heavily targeted. No Zeros were present OTL, so if the commanding officer of this Force Z decides to radio in for air cover, they could stand a chance of all surviving.

The land based versions of the Sea Hurricanes did pretty well against the Nazi Dorniers and Heinkels during the Battle of Britain. I don't see how the "Nell" and "Betty" torpedo bombers the Japanese threw at Force Z in OTL would have fared any better, being loaded down with their bomb loads and coming in clumps of individual air groups with no escort. Also, most of the bombers were running low on fuel and any potential escorting fighters woud have been carrying even less fuel.

Also, the bombers got to come in at about 100 feet and slow to 150 knots to drop their torpedoes.
 
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The Japanese went in without escorts, lost (or nearly lost) several planes to British AA fire- and if you're on the Discord, you'd know that British AA fire control is terribad -and didn't actually have a terribly large amount to begin with. Glorious carried around fifty or so planes, without deck parking. While the Brits aren't terribly into that idea, they may have stuffed her with extra planes for this particular trip. Even a dozen Sea Hurricanes is more than Force Z had before, there's almost certainly more than just a dozen, and if things went as OTL the Japanese arrived in small waves at first, which would be shot down.

Each plane shot down is then one less plane that can be rallied in a bigger wave.

Leaving all of that aside, this is all a week in advance. There's no way to say things would go remotely like they did, especially with Repulse actually able to talk and go 'DON'T GO OUT THERE WITHOUT AIR COVER YOU MORON'.

What with Glorious fresh off Taranto and all.



Wasn't British AAFC actually supposed to be really good, it just didn't work in any climate conditions outside the North Atlantic/North Sea?

Also, Repulse dodged 19 torpedoes IRL before she finally got hit. Nine. Teen.

Without any fighter cover.

I remember reading somewhere that Repulse's powerplant was actually a 1.6 liter 4A-GEU I4 engine manufactured by Toyota of Japan.
 
The Japanese threw 85 bombers at Force Z
85 slow, lumbering, unarmored, flammable bombers. That came in dribs and drabs through out the day. I think the biggest raid was something like 20 planes.

Brit 7.7mm machine guns used AP-API-AP-IT rounds. Guess what happens when they pewpew a few millimeters of shitty japanese sheetmetal that happens to cover their fuel tanks (in the wings). If you guessed presto flamo you'd be right. They don't need 85 fighters up in the air when a half second burst will ignite a Betty or Nell.

And Seacanes carried either 8 or 12 7.7mm machine guns. The Mk IIC Seacanes had 4x20mm.
 
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Wasn't British AAFC actually supposed to be really good, it just didn't work in any climate conditions outside the North Atlantic/North Sea?

HACS was so bad it was actively useless.

Let's do a quick comparison to the USN counterpart(I'm just going to quote Chaos off the Discord here. Anything in bold was added by me.):
The Mark 37 was designed to be DP, or in British parlance HA/LA

It was a continuous pointing system that basically kept the guns permanently on target by way of RPC
And for the 5/38s, it usually had either hoist ammo fuze setters, or three round setters that it could use to keep the rounds on time

It was also substantially less dumb

The entire system was fully stabilized
And when the director was turned onto a target, it would then do most of the work for the director crew

The director crew if they only have optical rangefingers have two jobs

Keep the director pointed at the plane, and keep the plane's range estimate coming in

If the director has radar, the director's job is keep the director pointed at the plane

The system would calculate own course, own speed, wind speed/direction and whatever all on its own automatically so your hamsters didn't have to do it themselves

And then it'd automatically transmit this data to fuze setters and the turret RPC, traverse the turrets into the correct positions and set the fuzes so those dumb meatbags can't mess it up

HACS, by contrast, didn't have automated fuze setters, meaning you have a monkey with a wrench twisting the MT fuze ring, trying to remember the setting Manly Boris shouted at him.

It's also only capable of salvo fire, meaning that the ship is constrained by the fire rate of the slowest gun.


all the inputs from the HACS director had to be manually input into the HACS Table

By Table I mean Computer, but the British insist it is a Table
And basically, the data gets set back to the Director and to the guns as well

On the director, there is a rolling sheet of paper with prickers

One line represented the visual observations given by the person manning the optical rangefinder

One line represented where the Table said the plane was based on the guesstimated inputs of things like initial range, speed, course, wind course, speed, ship course, ship speed etc.

When radar was added, the third pricker was added as well, and that gave what radar was outputting

And then the director officer had to determine which one based off of his experience was the correct range

And then shout that down via voice tube

No electronic inputs for this system

Everything is done BY SHOUTING and by manual inputs and guesstimations

And the hamsters at the Table itself are constantly adjusting inputs

USN

Director: "There is the thing and that's my guess on his range."

Mk37: "AND NOW SHOOT EVERYTHING AND DO NOT STOP."

USN with Radar Directors:

Director: "There is the thing, this is what radar says."

Mk37: "AND NOW SHOOT EVERYTHING AND DO NOT STOP."

Because everything was automatically input into the computer, though manual corrections could be made

And then RPC'd the guns directly

Rather than waiting for the crew to fiddle about with following the pointers

And if the plane was diving or maneuvering at all against HACS

HACS was basically useless

After they add radar, this system is slightly less shit

But it's still awful

Since there's still a lot of guesstimations

AND A LOT OF SHOUTING

and hamsters spinning dials

So the British add this thing called an ABU

Auto-Barrage Unit

And basically, what it does is it is a system that will automatically fire all of the guns in a single barrage against an aircraft at a pre-determined range

Problem:

You get one shot

And you had to hold fire until he got to that range

Once he was past that, you had best hope your pom-poms and Oerlikons and Bofors were up to the task

They don't get FCS, they just have tracers
 
Oh pom-poms....
Those things are better off as anti-infantry rather than anti-air or worse, anti-armor gun....
 
HV Pom-poms were fine. Inferior to the Bofors 40mm/L60, but fine.

LV Pom-poms, on the other hand, were as useless as you characterize them being.
 
I assume the HV means High Velocity while LV is the Low Velocity variants.

Indeed

A quick comparison of the relevant statistics:

LV muzzle velocity: 2040 ft/s

HV muzzle velocity: 2400 ft/s

Bofors 40mm/L60 muzzle velocity: 2,890 ft/s

Pom-pom ROF:115 RPM

40mm/L60 ROF:120 RPM

Bursting Charge:

Pom-pom: .16 lb

Bofors: .15 lb

The biggest advantages of the Bofors are its ability to accept rounds using US powders (the pom-pom could only use cordite rounds), and the much higher muzzle velocity. The 5 RPM is nice, and the bursting charges are so similar as to be functionally identical in the AA role.
 
So whats up with the Brits deciding their vaunted big gun ships need and aircraft carrier when land based aircraft would, and technically did, work better?

Singapore had a couple of squadrons of Brewster Buffalos tasked to protect Force Z. I'll take the Sea Hurricanes Glorious is carrying. Whatever Spitfires Singapore has, they just don't have the range to reach them.

Also the bombers have to drop to about 100 feet and slow to about 150 knots to successfully drop their torpedoes. Big advantage for the defending Sea Hurricanes. A similar scenario happened some 7 months later at Midway, when Enterprise's, Yorktown's and Hornet's torpedo squadrons attacked the Japanese Carrier force with no fighter escort. I think the Japanese losses would be of similar proportions.
 
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So whats up with the Brits deciding their vaunted big gun ships need and aircraft carrier when land based aircraft would, and technically did, work better?
Indomitable was always supposed to be with Force Z but she ran aground during training. Hurricanes are much better aircraft (handling wise) than the Buffalo Is that Singers had.
 
"Honestly, she wasn't wrong." Tennant continued, a disapproving frown replacing the thin smile. His eyes trailed up and down the battlecruiser...in the way only an officer who was annoyed with what he saw could. "Frankly, you need to find a proper uniform."
I saw Kenneth More playing Captain Tennant as I read this scene, especially that last line.
OTOH, Tom Phillips was converted to the ascendancy of air power only because he was on the PoW when she sank.
Phillips wasn't converted to anything...he was KIA when PoW was sunk.
 
Except that at best the Fleet Air Arm at the time is using Sea Hurricanes, and at worst Fulmars. Neither of those is going to be able to climb high enough fast enough to intercept the large bombers that were the mainstay of the Japanese attack. And this is before factoring in the torpedo bombers. Glorious was not a large carrier, and she's carrying both fighter and bomber squadrons. She simply won't have enough planes to prevent the Japanese bomber squadrons from overwhelming the fighter screen and sinking the capital ships.

Further, any chance of concealing Force Z's location is moot since Churchill himself is going to ruin that, and shooting down the spotting floatplanes is also moot since most of the tracking of Force Z was done via submarine.

The only way Force Z survives this is if they turn away and abandon their station, and that doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

First off, knowing that Force Z is present in theater does not equal having actionable intelligence on where they are so they can attack. Oceans are very very big and ships are very very small, see Midway for an example (heck, pick any WWII carrier battle), or for that matter the USN losing track of Kurita's Center Force at Leyte despite having an order of magnitude more search assets available to hunt a considerably larger surface fleet.

The problem is that as noted repeatedly, the Japanese are not coming in one mass attack but instead dribs and drabs of unescorted twin-engine bombers. Given reasonable warning with air-search radar, and no total incompetence on board Glorious, they can prepare a very warm reception for the Japanese. The real threat are the TBs anyway, the mid-level bombers historically had severe problems with accuracy of bomb drops on dodging targets. As long as Glorious can disrupt if not kill the TBs as they make their attack runs, Force Z should be in decent shape.
 
You're talking about the carrier that just sat there for about 10 minutes while her escorts were sunk and she herself was taken under fire.

True, which did not happen in this AU versus OTL. I think it's a safe bet that they have someone considerably more competent than D'Oyley-Hughes in command of her this time (an admitted very low bar to clear), especially since she's sailing into harm's way.
 
the world looked down on japan at this point in time. and Japan capitalized on this fact. they built some of the largest warships in history, as well as challenging America, and bleeding America for every island they fought upon. being underestimated costs millions of lives on both sides.
Point of fact, this isn't quite true. While plenty of analysts and strategists underestimated the Japanese, it wasn't quite out of racism or arrogance; rather, it was Japan initiating strict information control and and having geographical isolation on its side. Considering that the Zero didn't come into service until something like 1940, and two of Japan's six pre-war fleet carriers were commissioned not long before the war, and that no one had any idea that Japanese carrier doctrine/tactics had become so advanced and practiced, it's pretty understandable. Even the attack on Pearl Harbor was done at the very edge of Japan's logistical reach, with all of Japan's fleet carriers, in an attack that was practiced and planned for months.

It's relatively understandable that everyone was caught by surprise at Japan's sudden, elaborately planned, well-prepared, and large-scale offensive across the Pacific, because the only fighting Japan had been doing was in China and the border with Russia--and considering that Japan was in a bitter slog against the Chinese (who were even dealing with a civil war of their own at the time) and had gotten its butt kicked by Russia, it was very surprising that Japan was suddenly very competent and prepared for such an ambitious, wide-spread undertaking. Of course, it all played to Japan's strengths--it was at a time when Japan had recently introduced an extremely well-designed fighter, radar was in its infancy, radio was not particularly reliable or widespread, the capability of aircraft had soared in the late 1930s, Japan's military had had years of experience fighting China, the British were fighting Nazi Germany and Italy alone (and were stretched much too thin), the US was stuck in an isolationist rut, and there was still ongoing negotiation between the US and Japan.

The British didn't think the Japanese would be crazy enough to declare war on themselves and everyone in the Pacific--including their main source of oil, the United States. The US didn't think Japan would be so brazen as to attack the US on its own soil, let alone without a declaration of war or even ending negotiations first.

And the US (and Britain and Australia) didn't lose millions of lives in the Pacific. The island hopping strategy, combined with many other things, ensured that storming well-defended island fortresses happened only when strictly necessary; the rest were bypassed, reduced by air power and naval blockade, and left to starve.

edit: nearly all sailors saw Japan as being a simple one or two week voyage, blow the japs up, be home in time for dinner.
I'm pretty sure that mentality died along with the attack on Pearl Harbor. You don't defeat an enemy an ocean away in one or two weeks after they sank all of Battleship Row. Also, Roosevelt's address did explicitly say "No matter how long it make take us to overcome this"--not something you'd say if a quick war is even remotely reasonable to expect.
 
Also the bombers have to drop to about 100 feet and slow to about 150 knots to successfully drop their torpedoes. Big advantage for the defending Sea Hurricanes.
In addition, the Japanese attacked from two directions at once. If a ship turned to comb the torpedoes from one section, they'd be broadside to the torpedoes from the other section.

With fighter cover, all it takes is to disrupt the attack of one of the prongs (either by delaying their timing, scattering them or splashing them) and the evasion problem is lightened significantly since there is only one torpedo salvo to keep in mind when turning to evade.

Phillips wasn't converted to anything...he was KIA when PoW was sunk.
That's the point, admiral.

And the US (and Britain and Australia) didn't lose millions of lives in the Pacific. The island hopping strategy, combined with many other things, ensured that storming well-defended island fortresses happened only when strictly necessary; the rest were bypassed, reduced by air power and naval blockade, and left to starve.
Millions of Chinese, Indonesians and Filipinos died on the Allied side of the ledger. Don't they count?
 
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We're talking military losses, because you don't count civilian casualties when determining how hard smashing someone's military into powder was.
Not how I read it.

Japan was underestimated in capability and fanaticism, the war that resulted was/went much worse than expected, and millions died on both sides. All pretty much true.
 
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Biggest problem that the Pom-Pom had was that it had no tracers. That's the biggest problem that the 40mm Pom-Pom had, the fact that the gun directors were crappy didn't help.
 
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