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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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I wrote a tiny snippet in SB where someone pointed to Kaga's captain the presence of Kaga, and... <looks>

Why, it's still the last post on that thread. I quote myself:
Onboard Kaga, immediately after the shipgirls reveal:
"Okada-dono, there is a kyuudo girl beside your right shoulder."
"Yes, so?"
"Aren't you surprised by her presence?"
"No, she's been there since I set foot on Kaga."
"WHAT? Why didn't you say anything about it??"
"Because she doesn't get in the way of ship operations, and because everyone else behaved as if she should be there all the time, or didn't see her."
Kaga only nods.
"And hadn't you tried talking to her?"
"I had no orders to give her, so no, I didn't."
Kaga has to get her stoic attitude from somewhere. I'm guessing that her captains have had a major influence on that.
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SisterJeanne said:
For the Japanese, this is a bit trickier, since while they will be culturally more predisposed to believe that Zuikaku has a kami on board, Tanaka is a junior pilot in a very hierarchical organization that he would have to persuade. Also it will be a while before they lose many ships going off OTL events, so it would be even longer before they look to try to resummon the sunk (probably after Midway would be the earliest they even start looking into it). A further problem might be if the summoners have to have proximity to the wreck to summon, remember Utah summoned on her sunk hull. Rather tough for Japan then.
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True, the Japanese could try to summon shipgirls by sending submarines to past wrecks. This method would be difficult even in peacetime conditions. You would have to be very certain of a wreck's location for this to even work. Not to mention that the Americans will find out what the Japanese are attempting to do rather quickly due to breaking Japanese naval codes. Thus, the Allies will likely increase naval and aircraft patrols around past naval-battle sites to sink any Japanese Submarine attempting to summon a shipgirl.
But I would imagine that the Japanese would be more than willing to attempt this as the war inevitably turns against them.
 
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Hey, I've been doing research into where ships were sunk, and if they were raised, and from what I've seen, it's really hard to find a ship unless they sank in relatively shallow waters. I don't think that summoning a ship that sank in deep water is possible.
 
Archduke said:
Hey, I've been doing research into where ships were sunk, and if they were raised, and from what I've seen, it's really hard to find a ship unless they sank in relatively shallow waters. I don't think that summoning a ship that sank in deep water is possible.
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That is what I believe as well, although it might be possible if you just need to be in the general area of the wreck.
 
Archduke said:
Hey, I've been doing research into where ships were sunk, and if they were raised, and from what I've seen, it's really hard to find a ship unless they sank in relatively shallow waters. I don't think that summoning a ship that sank in deep water is possible.
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newwriter said:
That is what I believe as well, although it might be possible if you just need to be in the general area of the wreck.
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Yeah. I mean heck we still don't know where either Hiei or Kirishima's wreck is (we found one Kongou wreck in Ironbottom Sound, but it's unclear which of the sisters it is) and that's not particularly deep water. Now for a real trick try to find some of the wrecks off the Battle off Samar since THAT was over the Philippine Trench (third deepest abyssal trench on record) at around 23,000 feet of water.

Note, I'm not saying that you have to be in reasonable proximity of the hull to summon the spirit, that's just a wild guess, but if you do (geographically presumably versus a diving bell so have to be in Ironbottom Sound to get Atlanta, Hiei, or Kirishima in OTL...or a lot of others). Wow this drives home how bloody Guadacanal was Ironbottom Sound - Wikipedia.
 
SisterJeanne said:
Wow this drives home how bloody Guadacanal was Ironbottom Sound - Wikipedia.
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Looking at that sunk ships chart, I really hope that the Torpedo mafia all get what they deserve (court-martial and at least jail).

One of my old Chinese picture books (yes, I have illustrated "Famous Battles" picture books... with 2 picture frames with text beneath each per page, which admittedly took a shitload of artistic license on what tanks looked like at, say, El Alamein or Normandy--they all had a curious resemblance to cartoonized T-55s or really badly cartoonized Cromwells, and ALL the Brits at Normandy wore berets instead of helmets, though at least elsewhere the Brodie helmets were shown accurately) claimed that a US soldier of some type said something roughly like this about Guadalcanal (I'm translating back from a translation to Chinese):

"Guadalcanal is not a place name, it is a terrifying nightmare of vicious aerial brawling, endless nighttime battles at sea, and crude melee combat in primeval jungle."

The book, despite being for kids, is reasonably accurate, but then again Chinese books on the Japanese being thrashed are generally pretty accurate.
 
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SisterJeanne said:
Yeah. I mean heck we still don't know where either Hiei or Kirishima's wreck is (we found one Kongou wreck in Ironbottom Sound, but it's unclear which of the sisters it is) and that's not particularly deep water. Now for a real trick try to find some of the wrecks off the Battle off Samar since THAT was over the Philippine Trench (third deepest abyssal trench on record) at around 23,000 feet of water.

Note, I'm not saying that you have to be in reasonable proximity of the hull to summon the spirit, that's just a wild guess, but if you do (geographically presumably versus a diving bell so have to be in Ironbottom Sound to get Atlanta, Hiei, or Kirishima in OTL...or a lot of others). Wow this drives home how bloody Guadacanal was Ironbottom Sound - Wikipedia.
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Just look at what David Mearns went through to find Sydney and Komoran in 2.5KM of water off Carnarvon, Western Australia.

Finding HMAS Sydney (II) | Western Australian Museum
 
newwriter said:
I was wondering. But what would shipgirl to shipgirl combat look like? Like what would happen if shipgirls from opposite sides battled each other?

Since Utah was able to summon herself as a shipgirl and proved herself in combat, the cat is out of the bag. I think that every nation, both Allied and Axis, will now be trying to summon their own shipgirls for use in combat. I think that the British and the Americans will have the initial advantage in regard to summoning shipgirls. Although I am not sure if the British and the Americans will collaborate with the Soviets in regard to potential shipgirl summoning project.
The Germans may try to summon shipgirls if they are able to make the connection with the appearance of young women on their warships. Personally, I would think that shipgirls will be a huge boon for the Axis, especially for the Japanese. Supplying and keeping shipgirls in combat readiness is much easier than Naval ships. Not to mention that every ship lost is another potential shipgirl to be summoned.
The German Navy will definitely encourage the development of a shipgirl project, as it would increase the usefulness and prestige of the Kriegsmarine over the other branches and may give them an edge in the Battle of the Atlantic.
I think Schreiber will even encourage the development of the German shipgirl program. As he would need military support to overthrow Hitler and the shipgirls under his command are the most reliable soldiers he has with no loyalty to Hitler whatsoever.

It is going to be a major shock when the first instance of shipgirl to shipgirl combat happens. I fear that the introduction of shipgirls may have made the Second World War more violence and tragic. Shipgirls from opposite sides are going to have a lot of animosity between each other than before, as they are likely going to fight each other.
This fic kinds of reminds me of the comic Uber, although there are very clear differences.
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one thing is for sure...

if the kanmusus ran out of ammo and they're in a knife fight rage....

everyone in the vicinity will stop to watch....

coz there's a catfight that's about to happen and i dont think their clothes will last the round anytime soon...

kappa.
 
Guardian54 said:
Looking at that sunk ships chart, I really hope that the Torpedo mafia all get what they deserve (court-martial and at least jail).
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If you are talking about the Mark 14 issues, that actually was not a major contributor to all the bloodshed at Guadacanal. The USN torpedo problems impacted the submarine force a lot more heavily than the surface combatants. Not to say that BuOrd should get away with the Great American Torpedo Fuckup, but that is more generally something the subs suffered through than the ships that fought off Savo.

What hurt the USN badly there was the combination of the Japanese developing the Long Lance in near total secrecy (which accounted for the vast majority of Allied ship losses in Ironbottom Sound) and the Japanese intensively training in night combat tactics including use of torpedoes. The major allied equalizer in radar, especially radar-directed gunnery was still in the process of being perfected in late 1942 with the ships available ranging from the most modern gear (IEFletcher) to pre-war electronics (IE San Fransisco) and commanders not trained on the strengths (and limitations) of surface-search radar. It's worth noting that the ships that had experience in using radar did very well (USS Washington at 2nd Guadacanal and USS Helena at First Guadacanal in particular) and fought at a roughly equal level to the best of their Japanese counterparts.

That said, the USN could 'win' by trading 10 destroyers and 6 cruisers off Guadacanal for 6 destroyers and 2 battleships. They could, would, and did replace those losses several times over, whilethe Japanese did not have a prayer of expanding past their fleet strength in December 1941 in a meaningful sense. Each Japanese ship that went down swung the balance of forces more and more heavily toward the Allied side of the scale.
 
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SisterJeanne said:
If you are talking about the Mark 14 issues, that actually was not a major contributor to all the bloodshed at Guadacanal. The USN torpedo problems impacted the submarine force a lot more heavily than the surface combatants. Not to say that BuOrd should get away with the Great American Torpedo Fuckup, but that is more generally something the subs suffered through than the ships that fought off Savo.

What hurt the USN badly there was the combination of the Japanese developing the Long Lance in near total secrecy (which accounted for the vast majority of Allied ship losses in Ironbottom Sound) and the Japanese intensively training in night combat tactics including use of torpedoes. The major allied equalizer in radar, especially radar-directed gunnery was still in the process of being perfected in late 1942 with the ships available ranging from the most modern gear (IEFletcher) to pre-war electronics (IE San Fransisco) and commanders not trained on the strengths (and limitations) of surface-search radar. It's worth noting that the ships that had experience in using radar did very well (USS Washington at 2nd Guadacanal and USS Helena at First Guadacanal in particular) and fought at a roughly equal level to the best of their Japanese counterparts.

That said, the USN could 'win' by trading 10 destroyers and 6 cruisers off Guadacanal for 6 destroyers and 2 battleships. They could, would, and did replace those losses several times over, whilethe Japanese did not have a prayer of expanding past their fleet strength in December 1941 in a meaningful sense. Each Japanese ship that went down swung the balance of forces more and more heavily toward the Allied side of the scale.
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As for the IJN, the development of the Type 93 torpedo started in 1928 and took most of the 30's to solve most of the problems associated with an oxygen fueled torpedo. They never did totally solve the safety issues, and accepted the risk was worth the rewards. They also had a dedicated surface torpedo school to teach crews and officers in the handling, use and employment of torpedoes, especially during night actions. It's interesting to note that the most well known instructor and commander of the school was none other than Tanaka Raizo.

Surface search radar is a great leveler, but is not the thing that trumps all. Tassafarnoga was proof of that. Task Force 67 was tracking Tanaka's destroyers for most of their run into deliver supplies. They caught them by surprise when they opened fire and set Makigumo on fire. Tanaka's force should have been shot to scrap. Instead, he turned the tables on the Americans and inflicted a whole lot of hurt on them with the help of the Type 93 torpedoes and the crews and officers he trained and led.
 
Jrandom said:
Surface search radar is a great leveler, but is not the thing that trumps all. Tassafarnoga was proof of that. Task Force 67 was tracking Tanaka's destroyers for most of their run into deliver supplies. They caught them by surprise when they opened fire and set Makigumo on fire. Tanaka's force should have been shot to scrap. Instead, he turned the tables on the Americans and inflicted a whole lot of hurt on them with the help of the Type 93 torpedoes and the crews and officers he trained and led.
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Oh I agree. Tassafronga was proof that the best the Japanese had were as good if not better than the best the Americans had in the Solomons. The Japanese problem was that they could not win a war of attrition navally or otherwise and after Pearl it was going to be a war of attrition until one side broke. Surface search radar was the major American advantage in night action, the only one really. Japanese training, optics, and torpedoes were better by far and gunfire was a bit of a push.

Darth Herobrine said:
Slightly nitpicky but, White had one gun. Which only makes it more badass.
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Yes, USS White Plains is the point at which the cute and cuddly and badass circles on the Venn Diagram overlap. Only carrier to win a gun duel against a cruiser.
 
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Burning Baron said:
And that resulted in Choukai getting blown away by White Plains' 5 inch guns off Samar. Or any other IJN ship that got wasted because of their torpedoes.
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To which the IJN would probably have said "Cost of battle". For every ship lost through detonation of their torpedoes before launch, there are probably two enemy ships sunk by the same torpedoes at ranges that rival cruiser main batteries. And we can reload and fire another salvo in less than 10 minutes.
 
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MagisterAurelius said:
They just forgot about the little matter of "No replacements available".
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I don't think they forgot. I believe they thought they could have inflicted enough losses on the Americans to make a tactical difference. If Mikawa hadn't lost his nerve at First Savo and gone all out against the invasion transports, that could have made a major difference.
 
Jrandom said:
I don't think they forgot. I believe they thought they could have inflicted enough losses on the Americans to make a tactical difference. If Mikawa hadn't lost his nerve at First Savo and gone all out against the invasion transports, that could have made a major difference.
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True, he could have messed the landing up massively. But even if Guadacanal turned into a major disaster, it would not have made a major difference in the medium to long term. Likewise, the Japanese would have to move enough troops to Guadacanal and support them there to crush what had already landed which was rather outside their historical capabilities. Remember that they sent only a regimental landing force (917 men) to crush the 11,000 Marines landed. While losing the transports would have put the land force in a desperate situation in terms of supplies, the USN could have landed enough to keep the troops on shore alive.

About the only way to wreck Guadacanal would be to wreck the transports at Savo Island and then win Eastern Solomons decisively enough to control the sea lanes to prevent allies supply runs to Lunga Point.
 
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SisterJeanne said:
True, he could have messed the landing up massively. But even if Guadacanal turned into a major disaster, it would not have made a major difference in the medium to long term. Likewise, the Japanese would have to move enough troops to Guadacanal and support them there to crush what had already landed which was rather outside their historical capabilities. Remember that they sent only a regimental landing force (917 men) to crush the 11,000 Marines landed. While losing the transports would have put the land force in a desperate situation in terms of supplies, the USN could have landed enough to keep the troops on shore alive.

About the only way to wreck Guadacanal would be to wreck the transports at Savo Island and then win Eastern Solomons decisively enough to control the sea lanes to prevent allies supply runs to Lunga Point.
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And thus is the justification to the theorem, never fight a land war in Russia; they can replace almost everything, you'll need to be able to do the same.

Also this corollary, you must kill the charging bull to get it to stop attacking if there isn't a convenient wall in the way, otherwise you'll just make it angrier
 
ex143 said:
And thus is the justification to the theorem, never fight a land war in Russia; they can replace almost everything, you'll need to be able to do the same.

Also this corollary, you must kill the charging bull to get it to stop attacking if there isn't a convenient wall in the way, otherwise you'll just make it angrier
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Oh yes, and the bad part is even in that scenario where Guadacanal becomes an American disaster, that only delays the inevitable because eventually the US will strike into the Gilberts and Marshalls to start reclaiming the Central Pacific as well as thrusting up the Solomons/South Pacific. Japan basically had to massively win every fleet engagement, even a draw put them behind the power curve and a defeat like Midway compromised their position even further. They couldn't be strong everywhere and eventually something would crack no matter what.

That's why I have a certain sympathy for the kanmasu the Japanese have because unlike their commanders and sailors, they have no choice but to go to war, and ultimately are doomed because of it. Some of them might survive if incredibly lucky like Hibiki, Yukikaze, or Shigure, but the vast majority will eventually fall to superior forces one by one as the situation gets more desperate. Witness Zuikaku where all the strength, courage, and luck she had eventually led her to be a doomed sacrifice in a decoy maneuver to draw fire onto her and away from the rest of the fleet who couldn't have made a difference ultimately anyway.
 
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SquireHarbour said:
Ah yes, that battle.

It was incredilous how Kormoran managed to disable a light cruiser with hidden 5.9 inch guns.
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Not really. Having read the entire Cole report, to me it appeared that a mixture of complacency, mismanagement, arrogance, incompetence, questionable decisions and fundamental mistakes allowed Captain Burnett to put Sydney about 1,000 meters off the starboard side of Komoran, with her crew unready to respond. A mixture of nerve, calculation, hard training and a bit of luck gave Komoran the edge it needed to savage Sydney at close range, wrecking her bridge, disabling her forward turrets, setting her on fire amidships, and causing critical internal damage in less than 5 minutes. The torpedo launched in the opening seconds of the engagement that hit Sydney in the port bow and nearly tear it off was only one of the critical hits that decided the engagement in its opening minutes.
 
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SisterJeanne said:
Oh yes, and the bad part is even in that scenario where Guadacanal becomes an American disaster, that only delays the inevitable because eventually the US will strike into the Gilberts and Marshalls to start reclaiming the Central Pacific as well as thrusting up the Solomons/South Pacific. Japan basically had to massively win every fleet engagement, even a draw put them behind the power curve and a defeat like Midway compromised their position even further. They couldn't be strong everywhere and eventually something would crack no matter what.

That's why I have a certain sympathy for the kanmasu the Japanese have because unlike their commanders and sailors, they have no choice but to go to war, and ultimately are doomed because of it. Some of them might survive if incredibly lucky like Hibiki, Yukikaze, or Shigure, but the vast majority will eventually fall to superior forces one by one as the situation gets more desperate. Witness Zuikaku where all the strenght, courage, and luck she had eventually led her to be a doomed sacrifice in a decoy maneuver to draw fire onto her and away from the rest of the fleet who couldn't have made a difference ultimately anyway.
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Come to think of it, in these stories, maybe it's just me, but does it seem that the Japanese Kanmasu seem more inclined to be portrayed with cutes while the American Kanmasu seem to be infused with a... legendary persona, I wonder why.
 
ex143 said:
Come to think of it, in these stories, maybe it's just me, but does it seem that the Japanese Kanmasu seem more inclined to be portrayed with cutes while the American Kanmasu seem to be infused with a... legendary persona, I wonder why.
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Well I think the contrast is in part because the Japanese kanmasu's stories are ultimately tragic ones where even if that ship survived, it would have been the only one of her sisters to make it to the end of the war (IE Hibiki, Haruna, Nagato, or Yukikaze). In addition, the game was geared to the Japanese market at the start, so they made them cute for marketing reasons.

OTOH, Americans had so many ships that the ones that do get screen time tend to be the ones that did something especially memorable and legendary (Taffy Three, Enterprise, etc.), most of whom are original characters who the author knows from studying naval history. So what you have is a knowledgeable author like Sky here trying to do a legendary ship like Saratoga justice with his portrayal of her. It would be far tougher to make someone like say Nevada or Pennsylvania epic since they spent most of the war as naval fire support. To say nothing of all the Fletchers who spent the war escorting convoys and carrier task forces around the globe and missed out on the few major naval engagements 1943-45. You see the cute (well in this case cute and derpy) dynamic come out when in BelaBatt, Alaska got introduced, since she really didn't do much of note in her career (commissioned June 1944, 3 battle stars for AAA escort and ground support at Iwo and Okinawa, decommissioned 1947, scrapped 1960).

Kancolle has a bunch of ships that didn't do much really like Fubuki who escorted a bunch of convoys, was at Sunda Strait where Perth and Houston were sunk, then her luck ran out at Cape Esperance in 1942. So the designers have to come up with something to make her attractive from that, so they make her moe.

Even the IJN ships who did have an 'epic' career like Zuikaku who participated in five carrier battles plus Pearl Harbor wound up sunk in the end and of course the war was lost. In addition, emphasizing the cutes and the tragic aspects of it downplays that fact that Japan was the villain of the Pacific War in a lot of ways, and the kanmasu were fighting for a bad cause.
 
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