DawnofWar32
War is coming. Prepare yourselves!
- Location
- Butuan City, The Philippines
Please no. Because if there is, then that time traveler would be on Stalin's watch list... I think.
Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
Sir_Gaea
More Stories Please
- Location
- The Region
Wait, Pearl Harbor happened earlier then OTL with no carriers in harbor. What if there is a Japanese Time Traveler who set this up so that Japan would lose sooner? In an attempt to not have the mass blood shed on the island campaigns and the twin nukes from dropping?
Plausible?
Plausible?
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Unknown. Here's the known time travelers:
Admiral Thompson, USN Pacific Fleet main character.
Admiral Schreiber, Kriegsmarine. Main character of the other part of the story.
It's a safe assumption that the Royal Navy does not have a time traveler, since if that were the case than the existence of shipgirls (IE Hood) would not be unknown to the British before Thompson's demonstration. Clearly it was, ergo there's no Kancolle admiral in London. Likewise, considering the changes to the successful attack on Taranto, it's probable that a Regia Marina time traveler does not exist, since he would be attempting to prevent that disaster for his nation. As for the Russians, the Soviet fleet was very distinctly secondary to the ground/air combat on the Eastern Front and Stalinist Russia was not a place where it would be easy to rock the boat. This makes the potential impact of a time traveler minimal since he would be running the real risk of getting shot by the NKVD as a traitor for assuming that their ally Germany would attack in mid-1941....
I already covered the Japanese situation upthread, and any IJN time traveler would be either trying to prevent a war with America (since the war turned into a massive disaster for Japan) or failing that trying to win the war early by sinking USN carriers at Pearl Harbor to try to prevent what actually happened (naval attrition through 1942 then the USN's buildup hit and Japan was screwed). Since the war just came and Pearl was hit with at least one PacFleet carrier in a safe location (potentially all three if Lex was in San Diego getting refitted and E was enroute to Wake), there's probably not a time traveler.
- Location
- Nashville
I have to respectfully disagree. The specific dates are very easy to miss, as gossip or papers. And I have doubts that operational planning would really touch those butterflies. I can only agree that the ships not getting sunk may be a flag, but how many of us would notice if we weren't going to encounter them in the first place... especially if they were on the other side of the globe?Because ships can't read papers onboard, or listen to onboard gossip?
I disagree with your claim
Though this all boils down to how well Nagato pays attention to historical detail...
Good Point
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- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Not very.
The concept of surrender was alien to pre-1945 Japan to the point that there was an attempted military coup to prevent Emperor Hirohito broadcasting the surrender AFTER the atomic bombings. Keep in mind these are people saying they should fight on with Okinawa taken, the navy sunk, major cities turned into smoldering ashes, two atomic bombs dropped, the Russians invading Manchuria, Germany surrendered, AND mass starvation. When your strategy is handing out bamboo spears to middle schoolers and women to face the US Navy and Army invading your country....
Once the war kicked off and it was obvious America was in it to the finish, the mass blood shed was sadly a given. The Japanese garrisons were in a position of fighting to the death with surrender not a psychological option, and the American attackers were in a position pretty much had to win or take extremely high casualties trying to evacuate beaches under fire. Pretty much two scorpions trapped in a bottle scenario.
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Sir_Gaea
More Stories Please
- Location
- The Region
What I was suggesting was that the Japanese time traveler would be... removing obstacles from the path of what will be the US Juggernaut in an attempt to save more lives in the long run. I sort of have a handle on the Japanese military mindset from that time on their inability to contemplate surrender.
What I'm arguing is in the same vein of the idea that the US using nukes led to less death in the long run. I'll explain more if someone wants to continue this line of thought.
What I'm arguing is in the same vein of the idea that the US using nukes led to less death in the long run. I'll explain more if someone wants to continue this line of thought.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Hood's ill-fated encounter with Bismarck would, I think, be very well-known among shipgirls.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
That's possible, but it's probably unworkable. For one, working to sabotage their own country would be a really good way to run afoul of their subordinates and superiors since that is treason at a time of war. At this point in time, the IJN (and IJA) were pretty factionalized and there was also a rather nasty secret police in the kempetai, who were specifically charged with insuring loyalty to the war effort by Prime Minister Tojo. It's the same problem Admiral Schreiber has, the secret police is watching for disloyalty and would love to take a rival service down a peg with a treason case. Sure, it's theoretically workable, but realistically it has enormous potential to backfire horribly for our hypothetical time traveler.
Another problem is that in order for the surrender to 'stick', the party in question has to feel psychologically defeated. In OTL, it was clear that Japan had lost the war and the militarists were discredited. Compare that to World War I, where Germany was not fighting on it's own soil and it could be and was argued that Germany was winning until the 'stab in the back'. While our hypothetical time-traveler could take some steps to prevent certain atrocities (such as arranging the destruction of Unit 731), realistically at this point, the only question for Japan is how long it takes and how bad the beating they will take will be.
EDIT-One further issue. How does our IJN admiral convince his kanmasu? Saratoga and the rest are trying to minimize the damage from a military defeat along the path to victory in the pacific. Bismarck and Blucher are in a service that already lost to the Royal Navy once before, are grossly outnumbered by the RN now, and he can specifically point to their sinking as a byproduct of challenging the preeminent naval power.
In the IJN, it's quite different. They have a legacy of victory in WWI, Tsushima and so on versus the German navy's legacy of defeat. Likewise, they view themselves as a peer competitor to the USN/RN in the pacific, which at this point is not totally inaccurate since while the other two services are larger, they also have more ocean to cover. Finally it's highly likely that the hyper-militarism of the last decade has shaped the kanmasu, so you will have a lot more attitudes like Kaga than anything else.
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- Location
- Canada
Because everyone has drawn an instant loss 2koma based on it...
A modern German willing to commit treason against Hitler is on the same level as a Japanese shipgirl committing treason against the band of yahoos in the Japanese government.
A Japanese admiral would have a hard time. A shipgirl wouldn't.
The only way Japan might be possibly pulled off its ego is to lose, lose, and lose some more from day 1 in the Pacific War, without a single major victory. Getting roflstomped all the way to the Home Islands followed by endless bombardment is the only way to hammer the point home, and if it happens earlier, well, less deaths are needed.
EDIT: Also, Nagato is likely to be more level-headed than Kaga, as she was built earlier, and may have long since learnt the lesson of Japan's economic inability to keep up with the Americans.
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- Location
- Nashville
Can I haz a hint to find the 2komas? Also less deaths is a relative term, just like breaking every bone in your body coupled with multiple organ failure versus only being horribly crippled, neither would be a fun
- Location
- Canada
Go find Akigumo and ask her about the 2komas (e.g. In-universe it seems very in-character for her to draw such doujins)
Less deaths might also fail to press the point home, which leads to some interesting implications like Decisive Darkness...
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
At this specific point in time (1941), what economic lesson? The IJN and USN fleets in the Pacific are roughly the same size accounting for the demands that the USN has in the Atlantic. The Japanese have six fleet carriers, we have six fleet carriers (Ranger, Lex, Sara, E, Yorktown, Wasp). Sure the USN has battleships and carriers on order and under construction (Hornet's about to be commissioned), so does Japan (the Yamatos and Taiho for instance). Admittedly a large part of this relative parity is a combination of the Washington Naval Treaty limits and the Great Depression on US actual versus potential shipbuilding, but that takes looking far outside the IJN bubble. Yamamoto arguably did but he was a small minority in Combined Fleet command.
Now, come 1943-44, that's when the economic lesson is driven home brutally with the USN explosively expanding at a truly breathtaking rate, but even then it's possible that our hypothetical kanmasu time traveler might miss the lesson if she was sunk early in the war like Shoho, Hiei, or Kaga before the USN truly kicked into overdrive. Sure a ship that survived the war (Nagato) or lasted till late war (Zuikaku) would be very very aware of the endless wall of steel that is on the horizon, plus anyone with the self-awareness to do the research as to 'what happened after I went down for my beloved country to lose the war after I failed them?'. Not everyone is going to be willing to do that, and even if they do, they have a tough job persuading the other kanmasu since the fleet at this point would be full of Kaga-type attitudes.
I suspect if anything, the queasy feelings among the Japanese kanmasu would not be fighting the Americans who are The Enemy that they have been indoctrinated against and Japan has a grudge going way back to Commodore Perry in 1858, but the Royal Navy who have the major maritime tradition, and Japan deliberately patterned it's navy after, see Kongou for an example. At this point in time, the USN has nowhere near the cachet of the Royal Navy (Trafalgar! Brittania rules the waves! Jutland!) and it's only WWII that gave the USN much of it's crowning moments of awesome (Midway, Enterprise versus Japan, Taffy Three, etc.), since that was the first major naval war that we got involved in. As a thought experiment, look at the battle names on the wall of the US Naval Academy football stadium and note how many of them date from WWII.
A further problem for any hypothetical kanmasu time traveler would be what happens to the original spirit in their hull. Do they displace it? Have future-Nagato sharing the hull with 1941-Nagato? Can they go outside the hull without being sunk/scrapped/nuked?
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- Location
- Canada
Nagato was around when the treaty was signed, so she might notice the treaty favoured Japan, and notice that the Old Glory that the IJN was patterned after, the RN, had conceded an equal limit of capital ships to the Americans, despite the US not having nearly as far-flung committments.
That's a stretch, I admit, but it's one that Kaga is even less likely to ever notice.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
True, but considering the response of the fleet faction to the WNT, I rather doubt that she would assume that the treaty favored Japan. It was not popular at all among many of the more vocal naval officers, and in fact was a direct cause of the May 15th Incident two years later where the prime minister of Japan was assassinated by ultranationalist naval officers, who got very lenient sentences for the attempted coup. It also involved Japan making some notable sacrifices that 'killed' her planned younger relatives in the Four-Four and then the Eight-Eight Fleet plans when the Tosa-class BBs and Amagi-class BCs were scrapped or converted (see: Kaga, Akagi) as a result of the arms limitation agreements.
Another thing to remember is that we don't have any positive evidence currently for a Japanese time-traveler. In fact we have negative evidence in that the AU Pearl Harbor is going off a week early with at least one USN carrier known to be out of the strike area, this is not a good way to start the war in hindsight. All we have is that Pearl Harbor happened a week ahead of schedule, and that Nagato has her kanmasu on board who is silently observing Admiral Yamamoto. We don't know if she can communicate with anyone, has even tried to communicate with anyone, much less her knowledge of future events or even the current strategic situation.
For all we know, she might be looking forward to fighting alongside her sister Mutsu in the Decisive Battle that proves their superior construction and fighting spirit over their rival members of the Big Seven (USS Colorado, Maryland and West Virginia).
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
I'm still completely worn out and need to be in bed soon, so no detailed replies.
This being said...
Even if someone tried to sabotage the Japanese war effort, it wouldn't end the war that much quicker. The same bottlenecks remain. Lack of oilers for the USN, and the need to build more CVs. Even if all the pre-war carriers survive, there will never be more than four or five of them in the Pacific (Wasp and Ranger are never getting rotated unless losses force the issue). Essex, in a situation where she had to be hilariously expedited, still didn't show until '43. Not much you can do to change this fact.
This being said...
Even if someone tried to sabotage the Japanese war effort, it wouldn't end the war that much quicker. The same bottlenecks remain. Lack of oilers for the USN, and the need to build more CVs. Even if all the pre-war carriers survive, there will never be more than four or five of them in the Pacific (Wasp and Ranger are never getting rotated unless losses force the issue). Essex, in a situation where she had to be hilariously expedited, still didn't show until '43. Not much you can do to change this fact.
Mega1987
A TTK somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
- Location
- somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
Why i got a funny scene running in my head about one of the USN ships called to nagato about many cute things and all the cute dd she can hug later that Nagato herself managed to move her hull and defect to the USN due to the cute upcoming DD that she can cuddle all she want....
Dispite what her japanese crew do to alter her course... Or even fire their guns.
Dispite what her japanese crew do to alter her course... Or even fire their guns.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Very true.
Another thing to consider is that if the IJN blows Pearl Harbor, that could easily snowball into a worse short-term result* for the USN. If Pacific Fleet is more or less intact, the pressure will be on to relieve the Philippines when they are attacked as part of Japan's opening gambit rather that writing MacArthur off like happened in OTL. This plays directly into Japan's plans to wear down the USN with submarine and air attacks before engaging in the Decisive Battle close to their bases and far from USN bases. In addition, any ships sunk would not be salvaged, unlike some of the damaged at Pearl such as WeeVee.
*Medium to long-term Japan's still screwed because of the industrial and logistic disparities, of course. Since America's going to war, the question now becomes what the cost is and how long it takes.
In addition, Japan did not have a monopoly on arrogance and viewing themselves as racially superior to their opponents in 1941. Far from it. If Pearl is seen as a failure, a lot of USN command will view that as proof positive of Japan being a second-rate power and underestimate the Japanese. This would also play into resistance to making needed changes early in the war such as fixing the torpedoes, carrier primacy, and so on.
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- Location
- Canada
Pearl must be a wake-up call and a knock off their self-imposed pedestal for the USN.
It's almost everything else that can potentially be set back a little. For example, the Philippines defence might be handled by someone less spectacularly bad at it than Mac (so much abandoned supplies destroyed instead of moved to Bataan in time...). However, Singapore must fall on schedule, or you get that AH.com timeline that's about the RAF in Malaya pressing everything they can into service with jury-rigging, under Browning, and completely kicking ass. If the Japanese cannot take Malaya fast enough including Singapore, they fail hard.
In fact OTL the Japanese general sieging Singapore was expecting the British to ask for his surrender, so bad was his supply situation.
Sakuya's Butler
A refined Butler to a knife wielding Mistress.
- Location
- ↓, ↘, → + Punch
To deliberately play the devil's advocate here...
What might happen if the JMSDF officer that goes back is one of the ultra-nationalist? Aka, one that really doesn't like the USN/USA, due to a combination of reasons (mostly due to innate self-denial at all levels within Japan's modern culture about the war, the various unfortunate/horrific rape incidents at Okinawa & Yokosuka in the '80s, etc).
And he actively is trying to hurt the USN even more, in the short-sighted belief, that when the Abyssal war does break out, a far stronger/independent dominant Japan is the one that takes center stage in the Pacific and reaps all the honor/glory from it.
On one side, this is really bad news for the USA (Especially if he starts indoctrinating the shipgirls into outright hating the USN, rather than seeing them as honorable foes). As he might be in a position to push through tactics that would hurt them immensely before they built up in numbers.
On the other hand, this would be disastrous for Japan in the long run as once the US/USN hits its industrial stride, it simply isn't possible to beat, and very likely would be even less amicable post-war in helping Japan rebuild. Thus leaving Japan even weaker by the time the Abyssals pop up.
Additionally, he'd get a first hand view at what his actions would cost Japan, and once his blinders get tossed, would likely as not be horrified in realizing he'll have shattered any hope of future cooperation between the various fleets of shipgirls, and Japan's own. As they'd come back hating the others, rather than being regretful due to various reaspns/willing to help work together.
Do I think this is the plan? Doubtful. But it's something to ponder on.
What might happen if the JMSDF officer that goes back is one of the ultra-nationalist? Aka, one that really doesn't like the USN/USA, due to a combination of reasons (mostly due to innate self-denial at all levels within Japan's modern culture about the war, the various unfortunate/horrific rape incidents at Okinawa & Yokosuka in the '80s, etc).
And he actively is trying to hurt the USN even more, in the short-sighted belief, that when the Abyssal war does break out, a far stronger/independent dominant Japan is the one that takes center stage in the Pacific and reaps all the honor/glory from it.
On one side, this is really bad news for the USA (Especially if he starts indoctrinating the shipgirls into outright hating the USN, rather than seeing them as honorable foes). As he might be in a position to push through tactics that would hurt them immensely before they built up in numbers.
On the other hand, this would be disastrous for Japan in the long run as once the US/USN hits its industrial stride, it simply isn't possible to beat, and very likely would be even less amicable post-war in helping Japan rebuild. Thus leaving Japan even weaker by the time the Abyssals pop up.
Additionally, he'd get a first hand view at what his actions would cost Japan, and once his blinders get tossed, would likely as not be horrified in realizing he'll have shattered any hope of future cooperation between the various fleets of shipgirls, and Japan's own. As they'd come back hating the others, rather than being regretful due to various reaspns/willing to help work together.
Do I think this is the plan? Doubtful. But it's something to ponder on.
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- Location
- In the depts of despair.
Regardless of rank an officer like that would do a lot of damage, mostly because every naval academy nowadays uses the japanese tactical and operational mistakes as examples of how not to do things, and Pacific War battles and campaigns for training officers in operational and logistical planning so the academy commander knows more about the pacific than the average WWII operations planner. While I do mention often the absolute disaster the discovery of the allied efforts in criptology giving the japanese submarines free reign for merchant hunting operations and doing even a token effort to cooperate with the Army would make the american's island hopping strategy a lot harder.
- Location
- Canada
Yes... YEEEEESSSSSSS....
*reads last line* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because this would be so awesome if that was the case, assuming the officer doesn't get assassinated for rocking the boat with his ideas.
...Though we will carefully not discuss the number of megadeaths that will have to be inflicted on the Japanese in such circumstances before they give in, as it sounds like advocacy of genocide (despite being merely plot realism and a logical extension to OTL attacks given a nastier war).
Instead, we should discuss the number of survivors in the Home Islands post-war.
...You are advocating for the abject impossible...
...The very concept is beyond my capability to imagine for the IJN and IJA. The only analogue I can think of for their bad relations is Jim Crow.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Seriously, have you seen WWII portrayal of Japan/Japanese/Tojo? Sure, some of it was racist wartime propoganda, but a lot of people wound up in the combat zone believing all Japanese aviators had buck teeth and bifocal glasses, for example.
Also you missed the context of my analysis of a situation where Pearl Harbor was a failure and not as damaging as in OTL. At that point, people are going to think that the 'little yellow monkeys' bungled a sneak attack because they are just that incompetent/inferior. That could result in a dusting off of War Plan Orange (mobilize the fleet, sail to relieve the Philippines and other US outposts in the Western Pacific like Guam, then Decisive Battle the IJN in their home waters and blockade the Home Islands). Textbook stuff straight out of Mahan, and a recipe for trouble since the Japanese counter plan was to hit the Pacific Fleet early, then weaken it with sub/air attacks and finally have their own Decisive Battle in home waters with carrier and land-based air superiority as the big-gun battle line led by Yamato, Nagato, and Mutsu closed and destroyed the USN.
MacArthur's kind of locked into running the show in Manila, alas. After all he retired in 1937 to become the field marshal of the Phillippine army, and was recalled to active duty in July 1941 when that was federalized by FDR. He's the best choice being a senior officer already on the scene (So you don't need to spend weeks traveling there), familiar with the local situation and local people he needs to work with, and with the pre-retirement rank to run things as a major general who had also been Army Chief of Staff in the early 1930s. Remember that at the time MacArthur was recalled to active duty the US Army was minute with glacial promotions (Eisenhower was just a colonel until he was promoted to brigadier general in October 1941 (Ike had joined the Army in 1915)). Therefore the number of qualified senior US army officers that could take the job MacArthur held in OTL in November 1941 was about zero.
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CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
- Location
- The former Rubber Capital of the World
I could've sworn the plan was to leave the Philippines to dry and tie down the Japanese while at it, and while they're distracted, build up fleet strength and supply lines before marching westward and slowly smashing them in through sheer weight of numbers, if nothing else.
- Location
- Pacific NW
The plan for the Phillipines wasn't to have it relieved. It was judged to have suffiicient defenses to make a Japanese invasion costly and time consuming. Military planners knew that they could not truly defend the Phillipines, which is why the Asiatic squadron was mostly cruisers and the Phillipines had a ton of PT boats. Think of it like a forward operating base for privateers/pirates in the Age of Sail. It wasn't meant to hold back a major invasion, it was there to extract losses on Japan by many small cuts. MacArthur really messed up by being overconfident and having his air power caught on the ground.