I am wondering why you are so fixated on adhering as close to the OTL as possible when such is impossible. And also wanting Sara and the other CVs to fight mostly alone without proper support and die one by one.
Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
- Location
- United States
I don't quite get what you are saying. America was a battleship navy until all her battleships were at the bottom of a harbor or in repairs. As for wanting the CVs to fight alone, I haven't said anything about that, even though that is what happened originally. All I'm saying is that the survival of battleships at Pearl would mean the Navy stays a big gun navy and carriers stay in their ultra support role. I don't think any carriers would be sent out on their own since they would be kept to support the battleships, as was their intended use. Essentially, what I'm really saying is that for the story to progress with a logical plot and not have bullshit happening for the sake of allowing Thompson to stay heavily in the fight, there cannot be really any US battleships after Pearl since they would eventually be the ships deployed West to combat the Japs and not the carriers. You wouldn't have Midway with just carriers, you'd have Midway with two battleship fleets, but the US most likely on the loosing side in terms of most everything. That's what I'm saying. The battleships need to go if Thompson and Saratoga and the rest of the carriers want to be used in any meaningful role in this story without what would realistically happen being thrown to the wind.
Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
- Location
- In here, not out there.
Uhhhh what?
You were right about exactly one ship. Alabama hadn't launched until most of the Pearl survivors were out of the docks. But, that's not anywhere in the same galaxy as having 'three battleships.' I shall list them all for you, in order of launch. Not counting ships which were on Battleship Row.
- USS Arkansas, launched 14 January, 1911
- USS Wyoming, launched 25 May, 1911
- USS Texas, launched 18 May, 1912
- USS Mississippi, launched 25 January, 1917
- USS New Mexico, launched 13 April, 1917
- USS Idaho, launched 30 June, 1917
- USS Washington, launched 1 June, 1940
- USS North Carolina, launched 13 June, 1940
Tell that to the Vichy in North Africa. They'll call you a liar. They got to meet that 'nonexistant' surface fleet, on the business end of their 14" guns.
I had to laugh here. That's not what Yamamoto's "Six-Month' prediction meant at all. He had been to the United States before, when the two nations were still allies, and seen all the shipyards that could churn out warships, and all the factories that could make whatever they wanted. Anybody who doubts the industrial potential of the United States back then is ignoring a major point in history. There were typewriter factories making parts for M1 Carbines. A boatbuilder in Louisiana went from one factory, and only about 100 workers to 24 factories and thousands of workers. Hitler called the man, Andrew Higgins, America's Noah, and his landing craft, which were chosen as superior to the USN's own landing craft by committee, were sent all over the world. Yamamoto's words were to the tune of 'if we can't get the US out of the Pacific in six months, they'll crush us.' Look how effective at holding back the IJN in the west were, with outdated ships. The USN's own Asiatic Fleet, and the League of Nations' own ABDACOM, or Australian British Dutch American Command.
No, they wouldn't. Fair fights are for suckers. Make the enemy come to you, and make sure they pay the entire way. It's a tactic that has serve the US well since before it was a country. The whole reason Pearl was chosen as the new home of the Pacific Fleet was because it was closer to Japan than San Diego, but still ridiculously far from Japan. That's why the attack came as such a shock, and why the Brass thought the telegrams, and messages meant the Phillipines as the point of attack, but not Pearl. The Kido Butai did send the entirety of their oiler fleet along, because none of the ships had the fuel to make it to Oahu and back.
She was still three weeks voyage away. It's really hard to economically cross the largest ocean on the face of the Earth in a timely manner, especially with how much fuel Yamato guzzled.
Except they did, and promptly scurried back to Kure after losing four fleet carriers. Then to Guadalcanal, where she did nothing but sit at anchor. And then, went to Wake, and sat around sitting on their thumbs for almost a week, then went back.
Except that, if the IJN do the dumb, and send their top secret battleship to the other side of the hemisphere, there's a very real chance she'll be stuck there, either temporarily, or permanently.
No way could anything in the first six months be called 'westward progress.' Everybody was moving south and east, out of the Japanese war machine's way. It was only after the beginning of the island-hopping campaign did any real movement west begin.
The battleships did survive, though. Only two battleships didn't leave Pearl. One of them has a memorial erected on top of it.
They would be sailing to their deaths. The longest record of a hit from a battleship is from HMS Warspite, and Scharnhorst, both being 24 km. About 13 nautical miles. Most aircraft have a range of well over ten times that. As Coral Sea demonstrated, by neither fleet ever seeing each other, the war would be won by air superiority, not gun duels.
Again, battleships did survive. A lot of them. But they would lose to carriers. Maybe not every time, but enough times to show that they're the inferior weapon. And, after the war, those surviving battleships were scrapped, or used as targets, or even used as giant models in a nuclear weapons test.
If you'd like a story with very few carriers, and lots and lots of battleships, try Belated Battleships, by theJMPer.
You are making a number of unsupported assumptions imo.
- Location
- Arizona
One thing I'll point out... for those thinking that the USN would completely neglect carriers if Pearl Harbor didn't sink all the battleships... 13 Essex class carriers were already authorized and paid for before Pearl Harbor, a further 19 were authorized several months later, but most of those were not finished in time for the war. (only 2 of those 19 actually served in WW2). Therefore, almost all of the CVs that comprised the USN carrier fleet were already on order at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack and already had a higher construction priority than battleships.
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Except the Two-Ocean Navy Act authorized eighteen carriers to seven battleships. The US Navy was proceeding towards a carrier-centric fleet even before Pearl Harbor forced their hand entirely. Further, the carriers were supposed to support the battle line by being forward-deployed as scouts. Operationally, the carriers may have been tied to the battle fleet, but tactically they had considerable space for independent movement.
And to put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, we look to WWI, where the big, expensive dreadnought battleships barely moved the entire war. What did move, and fight? Cruisers, destroyers, and battlecruisers, the latter of which carriers are the much more capable spiritual successor to. What this means is, with both battle fleets mostly sitting in port due to mutual deterrence, carriers, cruisers, and destroyers will be out supporting still-vital operations in the rest of the Pacific.
So yes, I do think carriers will be seeing a lot more fighting than the battleships either way.
- Location
- United States
Seriously, I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. OTL America didnt have the surface power to combat Japan until late 1942 and early 1943. Unless Thompson has the means to speed up the production of ships, this will stay the same. Washington and NorCal will still be stuck in America getting their prop shafts fixed, and wont be steaming to the Pacific to fight since they didnt OTL. The point I'm making is that if the US Navy has battlehships to deploy, and these would have to be Pearl survivors, they will most likely deploy them over the carriers as that was their naval doctrine prewar. The japanese combined fleet would roll over them since the US would have to go to the Pacific since Japan had no interest in invading America and only conquests in the Pacific. If America wants to do something, they have to go and do it, they will have to fight on Japans terms, as they did OTL.
America won't have any major surface ships until late 42 and 43, so they fight with what they went in with. OTL we got stupid fucking lucky stalling for time with our carriers, and in this new time line, if battleships get deployed and sunk in combat, that is a permanent reduction to Americas ability to wage war before they can be replaced. A crippling blow that early is what would likely come from the battleships surviving in such a way as to go into combat.
Again, to sum it up, I don't want to see this fic go and have all the battleships survive, but America suddenly, and for no reason, go from a battleship navy to a carrier navy when there are perfectly good battleships still afloat and their captains and admirals still hold sway over the navy. US naval doctrine won't change at the drop of a hat unless they are completely unable to carry it out. Battleships still rule the navy and will still be what is primarily deployed into the western Pacific when the time comes. If this happens before 43, they will face a mightier force in the sea and in the air.
Burning Baron, it must be interesting to live in a world where time has no meaning. I've said multiple times that any actions taken after Pearl and before 1943 would doom the US Navy, yet you want to wait until afterwards and all these ships are available. You also seem to be entirely incapable of reading what I type out. My issue is with plot holes arising from battleships surviving, not a hard on for battleships.
I know I keep typing out a lot, but I still feel like I am getting my point across, so I'm left wondering what seems to keep being missed.
I may be wrong but I think the reason carriers were ordered in great numbers is that they were seen as cruiser equivalents not as battleship equivalents. Eyes of the fleet and escorts, which would naturally be needed in greater numbers. The idea they'd be able to carry the war without BBs was up there with the idea that heavy cruisers would be the capital ship of choice.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Looking at North Carolina's service record, the reason she wasn't in Pearl was because she was wandering the North Atlantic to bully Tirpitz if she tried anything against American convoys to the UK.
This pretty much demolishes your claim that she's "getting her prop shafts fixed" (which, by the way, wasn't the problem. It was her screws). Washington and North Carolina we're both considered combat-capable by the end of 1941, and North Carolina would steam for the Pacific in June after hanging around a few more months just to make sure Tirpitz stayed in port.
Additionally, you seem to be operating on the assumption that the USN high command is stupid. That's the only reason I can think of for your continued insistence that they will ignore the evidence right in front of their faces that carriers beat battleships flat.
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Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
- Location
- In here, not out there.
Okay, so I'll address this first.
They won't. Now, let me explain. Many of the battleships that were in the water at the time were called Standards, because they were a pretty standardized design. They did 20 knots, give or take. Meanwhile, carriers, in their forward scout role, and since some of them were converted battlecruisers, depending on your choice of navy, did 30 knots. Which means, just like how Yamato needed three weeks to sail to Wake, it'll take the Standards a while to sail somewhere. That is all, now back to regular dissection.
Naval history of World War II - Wikipedia
Be sure to check out the tab for the USN. Because there were battleships galore to redeploy. For the third time I've told you.
Also, I'm not sure why you seem to believe that the author will sideline his own main characters.
Then what the hell do you call Midway? I've been telling you over and over, there are heaps and tonnes of battleships available to send, if you don't just 'Yorktown' the repairs, and send the Pearl survivors out. There were quite a few actions between 7 December and your arbitrary goal post of 1943. Instead, the FLEET ADMIRAL of the Pacific Fleet decided 'better use the carriers.' Because he had six battleships damaged in various manners, one capsize, and one literally blow the front third off. You never said anything about plotholes arising because battleships survive, but I'll answer you anyway.
They won't. Now, let me explain. Many of the battleships that were in the water at the time were called Standards, because they were a pretty standardized design. They did 20 knots, give or take. Meanwhile, carriers, in their forward scout role, and since some of them were converted battlecruisers, depending on your choice of navy, did 30 knots. Which means, just like how Yamato needed three weeks to sail to Wake, it'll take the Standards a while to sail somewhere. That is all, now back to regular dissection.
I wanna know what universe you live in where 13 battleships isn't 'surface power.' The USN ain't nobodies fool, and realized that if they tried to fight the IJN in a stand-up fight, they'd lose. A lot. They had newer, faster ships. Ships like the Nagato class, or the former Kongo-class of battlecruisers, made into fast battleships by the addition of armor. They'd also just seen that eight battleships got BTFO by carrier aircraft. So, again, the COMPACFLT decided 'better use these carriers I've got.' They can sail where I need them faster, and don't have to get close. Because, as I've said, and even illustrated here in this very story, carriers can engage ships from ten times the distance of the LONGEST pair of battleship hits EVER. Remember the Fleet Problems?
Wut? Seriously wut? Here's a comprehensive list of ALL the ships that fought at all from 1939 to 1945.
Naval history of World War II - Wikipedia
Be sure to check out the tab for the USN. Because there were battleships galore to redeploy. For the third time I've told you.
Yes, which is why the USN will stay AWAY, as much as possible.
Except that's not what happened at all. Every fight was on the USN's terms, because Yamamoto failed to do the one thing he wanted to at Pearl. STOP/SINK THE CARRIERS. That was the whole point, because he knew they would be a thorn in his ass.
Yes, we did. Until after the IJN realized after Coral Sea and Midway that suddenly, carriers may be better. They lost four fleet carriers, Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, annd Soryu, in five minutes. Add that to the loss of Shoho at Coral Sea, and they're down five ships they know now that they needed.If you don''t believe me, then explain the first and only Yamato-class aircraft carrier.
But you have been.
You've also said that, if the IJN does the dumb, and sails their biggest warship across half the world, using amounts of fuel that would make America jealous, then the USN would just ride out to meet her.
Also, the USN did go to near full carrier, because what was coming off the line? Five battleships, compared to TWENTY FOUR Essex-class carriers alone, with more carriers planned.
Also, I'm not sure why you seem to believe that the author will sideline his own main characters.
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
- Location
- Texas
So the USN should try to pull a Bear and the Dragon moment (Tom Clancy Novel that has China invade Russia, and Russia refuses battle until it has all of its forces ready, offering token resistance before then, but harassing with aircraft). obviously, there will be a few times where they must stand up and fight, like the Battle of the Coral Sea.
Also, did the Battle of The River Plate happen in this time?
Also, did the Battle of The River Plate happen in this time?
Well, Thompson didn't show up till June 21st, 1940. The Battle of the River Plate occurred in mid-December 1939, so it's unlikely to have been butterflied away.
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
- Location
- Texas
Blucher didn't get sunk during April, so the German Admiral must have shown up earlier.
- Location
- United States
OTL America didn't have the surface fleet strength after Pearl Harbor to deploy battleships. Pearl itself also showed their weakness to air attacks, and they needed to be refitted to be able to defend against planes. I'm saying 1943 because that is when SoDak are commissioned, and late 42 is when the two NorCal were finally ready to be deployed into the Pacific. Now, agian, if Pearl Harbor isn't as disastrous as OTL, those battleship captains and admirals, the same ones who hold most of the power in the Navy, will still have ships to fight with, and may not even think that planes are a threat to ships, depending on how unsuccessful the attack is. Out of 8 battleships present, 2 were a complete loss, 2 were out till 44 and 1 was out till the very end of 42. The other three were ready by mid 42, but had no defense against aircraft until the very end of 42 as well.
Essentially, from my view of this, this is leading to the Pacific Fleet keeping its surface power. If that's the case, this story would then have to explain a super radical change in doctrine for carriers to be used in the place of battleships. Carries were used the first time around because no battleships were reasonably able to be used, be it they were still under water, in port or in another theater where they were more needed. I'm worried that this fic will go the way of many others I've read where the author writes themself into a corner because they wanted certain characters to survive, but their survival means that other things logically wouldn't happen, and instead of trying to explain in the story how they still manage to use carriers primarily, any explanation will have to be ignored because all logic points to carriers still being used in support of the battleships when they eventually have to sail across the ocean to stop the Japanese. And they'd have to at some point, as they did OTL, regardless of whether or not they had a stronger force. No fight would be on Americas's terms because the Japanese dictate what and where they attack, and the US have to defend against that.
If battleships survive in number great enough that their admirals and captains dont find aircraft a threat, they will eventually be the ships sent to fight the Japanese in 42 with carriers acting in their support role. This is what would realistically happen if most if not all battleships survive. The battleship captains and admirals would not sit by and let the carriers go out and perform in a roll not originally designed for them. No, they would stand and argue that they have perfectly good ships that can be sortied, and that with the carriers acting in support, they would win. They would argue for the continuation of the pre war naval doctrine, not let a completely new one be written.
Essentially, from my view of this, this is leading to the Pacific Fleet keeping its surface power. If that's the case, this story would then have to explain a super radical change in doctrine for carriers to be used in the place of battleships. Carries were used the first time around because no battleships were reasonably able to be used, be it they were still under water, in port or in another theater where they were more needed. I'm worried that this fic will go the way of many others I've read where the author writes themself into a corner because they wanted certain characters to survive, but their survival means that other things logically wouldn't happen, and instead of trying to explain in the story how they still manage to use carriers primarily, any explanation will have to be ignored because all logic points to carriers still being used in support of the battleships when they eventually have to sail across the ocean to stop the Japanese. And they'd have to at some point, as they did OTL, regardless of whether or not they had a stronger force. No fight would be on Americas's terms because the Japanese dictate what and where they attack, and the US have to defend against that.
If battleships survive in number great enough that their admirals and captains dont find aircraft a threat, they will eventually be the ships sent to fight the Japanese in 42 with carriers acting in their support role. This is what would realistically happen if most if not all battleships survive. The battleship captains and admirals would not sit by and let the carriers go out and perform in a roll not originally designed for them. No, they would stand and argue that they have perfectly good ships that can be sortied, and that with the carriers acting in support, they would win. They would argue for the continuation of the pre war naval doctrine, not let a completely new one be written.
*sigh*
This argument is just going in circles, with both sides not changing. We'll have to see if Sky writes the BBs getting ganked just like OTL, before this debate can tread any new ground.
This argument is just going in circles, with both sides not changing. We'll have to see if Sky writes the BBs getting ganked just like OTL, before this debate can tread any new ground.
I understand that people want the ships at Pearl Harbor to survive but frankly, I hope that the attack on Pearl Harbor does happen somewhat as it did in RL.
the attack was a complete shock to the US Navy and changed their entire battle strategy by making the United States almost completely dependent on their carriers regardless of what people say otherwise.
By crippling the US fleet, the Japanese were able to gain huge amounts of territory causing many people, at the time, to really believe that the Japanese were unstoppable.
Besides, a story without struggle or sacrifice is a boring story in my opinion.
I would be disappointed if an American ship does not get destroyed.
the attack was a complete shock to the US Navy and changed their entire battle strategy by making the United States almost completely dependent on their carriers regardless of what people say otherwise.
By crippling the US fleet, the Japanese were able to gain huge amounts of territory causing many people, at the time, to really believe that the Japanese were unstoppable.
Besides, a story without struggle or sacrifice is a boring story in my opinion.
I would be disappointed if an American ship does not get destroyed.
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
*pinch brow*
The Pacific Fleet is not going to send the Standards out as the front line. Even if every single one of them came out of Pearl without a scratch. The inertia is already switching away from BBs and towards carriers. Taranto has already fully demonstrated the fact that battleships can be sunk by carriers quite easily. The Japanese just getting their carriers all the way to Pearl and launching an attack is demonstrating that carriers can do more than battleships. Battleships can't get near a fleet anchorage, carriers don't have to in order to still do damage. The younger carrier Admirals are already gaining more inertia in politics in the Navy before this. The Fleet Problems quite handily demonstrate this. Doctrine does, contrary to belief, evolve even without a sudden hit to the old one.
Battleships were already moving into more of a support role by this point themselves. Outside a few diehards.
Furthermore, it's a myth that the USN relied entirely on carriers because Pearl wrecked the battle line. Yes, that has some influence on things. But there were still three perfectly good New Mexico-class undamaged. Colorado was perfectly fine. NorCar and Wash required relatively little work to be routed to the Pacific. You know why they weren't? Simple really.
The navy did not have enough oilers.
With the Philippines and Dutch East Indies under Japanese control, the Pacific Fleet literally could not fuel both the battleships and the carriers. Even the most hardheaded of hardheaded BB Admirals knew that carriers were more useful than slow Standards in this situation. Even if there were more battleships, that doesn't change the simple fact that the Navy, until '43 or so, can only support one or the other across the Pacific. The carriers, by virtue of having aircraft, are by far more useful. Anyone in the Navy can see that. There's a reason that the battles around Guadalcanal were fought by lighter fleet units, and its not because the Navy didn't want to risk the battleships. They flat out couldn't send them in without sacrificing air support for the fleet.
There's no logical reason, especially with Thompson gaining Roosevelt's ear, that the battleships would be used over the carriers. Not with dozens of Essex-class already ordered and building while the only BBs we have are the Iowas and (possibly) Montanas. The best result for BB drivers that comes from a Pearl that fails hard is that maybe one or two Montanas may be laid down. Not necessarily completed.
(moreover, even Thompson himself has always been operating on the assumption that ships are getting hammered hard. There's never been any in or out of universe discussion that Pearl won't still see the Battle Line hammered to hell and back. It's always been a matter of mitigating the damage, not completely no-selling the attack)
The Pacific Fleet is not going to send the Standards out as the front line. Even if every single one of them came out of Pearl without a scratch. The inertia is already switching away from BBs and towards carriers. Taranto has already fully demonstrated the fact that battleships can be sunk by carriers quite easily. The Japanese just getting their carriers all the way to Pearl and launching an attack is demonstrating that carriers can do more than battleships. Battleships can't get near a fleet anchorage, carriers don't have to in order to still do damage. The younger carrier Admirals are already gaining more inertia in politics in the Navy before this. The Fleet Problems quite handily demonstrate this. Doctrine does, contrary to belief, evolve even without a sudden hit to the old one.
Battleships were already moving into more of a support role by this point themselves. Outside a few diehards.
Furthermore, it's a myth that the USN relied entirely on carriers because Pearl wrecked the battle line. Yes, that has some influence on things. But there were still three perfectly good New Mexico-class undamaged. Colorado was perfectly fine. NorCar and Wash required relatively little work to be routed to the Pacific. You know why they weren't? Simple really.
The navy did not have enough oilers.
With the Philippines and Dutch East Indies under Japanese control, the Pacific Fleet literally could not fuel both the battleships and the carriers. Even the most hardheaded of hardheaded BB Admirals knew that carriers were more useful than slow Standards in this situation. Even if there were more battleships, that doesn't change the simple fact that the Navy, until '43 or so, can only support one or the other across the Pacific. The carriers, by virtue of having aircraft, are by far more useful. Anyone in the Navy can see that. There's a reason that the battles around Guadalcanal were fought by lighter fleet units, and its not because the Navy didn't want to risk the battleships. They flat out couldn't send them in without sacrificing air support for the fleet.
There's no logical reason, especially with Thompson gaining Roosevelt's ear, that the battleships would be used over the carriers. Not with dozens of Essex-class already ordered and building while the only BBs we have are the Iowas and (possibly) Montanas. The best result for BB drivers that comes from a Pearl that fails hard is that maybe one or two Montanas may be laid down. Not necessarily completed.
(moreover, even Thompson himself has always been operating on the assumption that ships are getting hammered hard. There's never been any in or out of universe discussion that Pearl won't still see the Battle Line hammered to hell and back. It's always been a matter of mitigating the damage, not completely no-selling the attack)
PyrrhicSteel
Look natural.
- Location
- Idaho
Not much I can say about this quote, other then the fact I derived humor from referring to historical events as "canon."
(I had an argument about the battle-line and Pearl damage here, but Sky pretty much either blew my points out of the water or expressed them more eloquently.)
My bad.
I have been reading ASOIAF fanfiction so not all of my mind was in the right place.
- Location
- United States
Well, that's the word of God. I'll drop it now.
- Location
- Texas
yeah the only Major change I can think of from the battle line Surviving Pearl would be maybe one major battleship vs battleship battle in the solomons or near midway ending in disaster for both sides but I can't see them doing much else but sky's got the helm we are just watching the maneuvers
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
- Location
- Texas
Interesting...
- Location
- Texas
On slightly related news the battleship Texas has been closed for a few days due to her gaining a 6 degree list to the starboard side but she should be Visitable again soon
OutcastXC007
(A Light Upon the River's Gloom)
- Location
- 21° 23' 59.99", -89° 30' 59.99" W
*pulls up in a bus*
Everyone who wants to help with hugs, get in!
It's important to treasure our history.