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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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I dunno, I didn't even know there was Enterprise in WW2 until i started play KC and browsing history. I thought first Enterprise was a Nimitz-class.
For me Yorktown, Hornet or Saratoga were more known.
 
GunLinser said:
I dunno, I didn't even know there was Enterprise in WW2 until i started play KC and browsing history. I thought first Enterprise was a Nimitz-class.
For me Yorktown, Hornet or Saratoga were more known.
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Well then you're naval knowledge is or was severely lacking, considering that there was never a Nimitz-class Enterprise. There was the Yorktown-class Enterprise (CV-6), Enterprise-class Enterprise (CVN-65) and the new Gerald R. Ford-class Enterprise (CVN-80)
 
Regardless of who the carrier ends up being I think we can all agree that the fact that a carrier is involved and that it's a foreign ship on top of that means the next event will be AAA and CV heavy to an absurd degree.

Fuck me.
 
MageOhki said:
Which is _exactly_ why I stated Pearl was a GOOD thing (as you measure 'good' in the sense of "how bad it could get") IF the Battleline had warning and got out?
those ships would have been LOST in deep ocean, and with far more crew loss. That's the point.

14/45's still are effectively outranged by the 93 without radar, and even with a slightly better (as someone pointed out CMAX was.. iffy) radar, its' still the learning curve, Spectre. My point wasn't that Savo would go better, that the Standards there (which were the ships in the Harbor, btw...) would _not be justifiable_ given the costs they'd incur. 14"s aren't THAT much longer ranged, and accuracy of those at the ranges to keep them OUT of getting nailed by Long Lance swarm, isn't... the best. These aren't the late war "RADAR MASTER RACE!" Standards/Standard 2/Iowas... would they even be refitted as some were during their repairs?
21 knots. I repeat. 21 knots.


That would be the BIGGEST help, yes.
More DD's and CL's, too.
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rdfox said:
The standards, however, did have full torpedo defense systems, whereas the cruisers seen in the Solomons did not have any sort of torpedo protection beyond compartmentation. So while the Standards wouldn't have been able to just outrange the Type 93s, they would have had a better chance of tanking them than the cruisers did.

While Nevada and Tennessee likely wouldn't have gotten as extensive refits as they did OTL, and WeeVee didn't have a chance (Colorado and Maryland were barely refitted at all during the war as, with their 16"/45s, they were considered "too valuable" to take off the line), they likely would have gotten the same sort of incremental-upgrade Radar Master Race refits as the fast battleships got during the war, since those could be carried out relatively quickly (a couple of weeks, as opposed to six months for the massive bulges and AA refits).


CVs, not so much. Most of the Solomons battles were night actions, and carriers didn't start fighting after dark until the Big E became CV(N)-6 in 1944 with the Navy's first night-fighting air wing.

What would have been very helpful, though, would have been to concentrate CLs in the Solomons region and assign CAs elsewhere; doctrine said night fighting should be done with the fast-firing 6" guns, due to the short engagement ranges, but the fleet was so scattered that we were throwing together 8", 6", and 5" ships into mixed formations. Result: The 5" ships couldn't reach out far enough, the 8" ships couldn't fire quickly enough to deal with rapidly maneuvering targets, and the 6" ships ended up getting confused in the mass of shell splashes. Homogenous groups of CLs would have worked much better.
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I feel the need to point out that the Type 93 Long Lance torpedo had a max range of 24 miles if my conversions are correct, with both the Iowas and the Yamato's MAIN GUN range being roughly about 26 to 28 miles give or take according to the max gun elevation from Navweaps of 45 degrees.

Yes the Lance almost have the same max range as the Iowas and Yamato.

The EFFECTIVE range, the range where you can expect to hit stuff regularly, is basically the same at around 22,000 meters or about 13.5 miles with the BBs having a slight advantage up to about 26,000 meters.

And that's WITH RADAR.

Any longer ranges and the flight times get too long, you can basically have two full salvos in the air at the same time, with guns that take 30 plus seconds to reload!

You can see the results of this with the Iowa and New Jersey at Turk. Did some more research on that battle, and basically it went somewhat like this.

The Iowa landed a Straddle with her first salvo on Nowaki at a little over 32k. A couple salvos later had the Iowa losing sight with her radar and optics for the rest of the battle cause she had to turn or she would have hit New Jersey.

Who did piss poor* at the the time. Not that the Nowaki help since the 16s were so loud and the flash bright the captain could tell when the Battleship fired and turn abit causing them to miss by hundreds of meters by the pilots who were watching estimate.

*Basically she was firing her guns wrong. Each of her turrets will fire one gun a salvo, then fire another the next salvo. Since each individual gun had different ballistic characteristics and when they corrected the aiming on the next gun they were really aiming for the last which basically this caused the New Jersey unable to hit the broadside of a barn.

Now firing Partial Salvos allows a high rate of fire, which is probably why they chose to do so, but you lose a lot of accuracy. The other firing types are Single Salvos which is one turret at a time, with is more accurate but slower. The last is Full Salvo which is all nine guns at once, most accurate but the slowest.

Also didn't help that they were shorting with cold barrels, which can cause a gun (basically anything from a sniper to the Yamato's 18s) to fire the shell as much as 50 mps slower or faster which the shells to fly either further or shorter by several dozen meters depending. The reason why is still giving scientist headaches, they just know it's a thing. Generally it takes four to eight shots before the speed stabilizes depending on the gun. This was barely known in the forties, really didn't become a thing until the sixties, and is generally not a problem now since land base guns usually don't shot at moving targets at ranges where it the most noticeable. Or the shells are guided so it a mute point.
 
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Well, since I've decided to just write my own stuff for the foreseeable future now (barring maybe an omake or two for New Ironsides) with the time freed up that this implies...

Lexie!Quest

I do intend to keep this different, for what it's worth. Or at least give it my best shot :V
 
Spectre said:
one of the other issues with Savo is that Fletcher pulled his carriers away from the strait whole sale on the morning of the 8th without telling Turner or Crutchley, who we under the impression that Fletcher was backing them up until the transports were offloaded.
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This is investigated in Lundstrom's Guadalcanal Campaign. The timeline goes like this:
- according to planning, the cargo ships will leave in the darkness between the 8th and the 9th.
- Turner and Crutchley, in the early hours of the 8th, decide NOT to pull out later that day and send radio messages covering this.
- communications back then are not the communions of today; Fletcher and Nimitz did not get these messages until days later.
- Fletcher, in the night of the 8th/9th, withdraws as planned in the understanding that the transports have done likewise, plus he wanted to refuel.
- having informed Ghormley of his intentions, ComSoPac approved his actions and set a refuelling rendez-vous.

Spectre said:
oOne of the common ideas thrown around is that had Fletcher stuck around, there's a good chance the Japanese force would have at least been spotted if not attacked while still enroute to the island.
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As already mentioned, they were spotted, but misidentified.

Fletcher got a lot of criticism over the withdrawal, but there was nothing he could have done since he simply didn't know better than that everyone was still going with the plan.



Also on the torpedo and artillery ranges, effective range on Long Lance torpedoes is a few kilometers, long range browning shots were tried with the weapon and tended to waste ammunition but not hit much.
 
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Naka can testify to this. Between her and her division they fired off about 80 Long Lances and hit exactly nothing during one battle, with zero hits. They weren't alone in those kind of results from long range fire.
 
Firefinder12-B said:
Iowas and the Yamato's MAIN GUN range being roughly about 26 to 28 miles
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Iowa is 24 miles, or 25 under very specific conditions.

Firefinder12-B said:
The EFFECTIVE range, the range where you can expect to hit stuff regularly, is basically the same at around 22,000 meters or about 13.5 miles
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Effective range starts around 20 miles, and by 14 miles it's close enough you can use the optical rangefinders.

Firefinder12-B said:
16s were so loud and the flash bright the captain could tell when the Battleship fired and turn abit causing them to miss by hundreds of meters by the pilots who were watching estimate.
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Katori was sunk by the five-inch guns. To the best of knowledge the 16s weren't even used.
 
LudicrousSpeedGo said:
I thought the longest actual hit was 26k yards? If so, 13-14 miles is the outer edge of "effective range".
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Depends on how you define 'hit'. Actual physical contact with the target, or do under hull explosions count?

If the latter, then the longest ranged hit is 34,500 yards. If not then all modern torpedoes, which go for under the hull explosions, are designed to miss their targets :) .
 
Gosu said:
Depends on how you define 'hit'. Actual physical contact with the target, or do under hull explosions count?

If the latter, then the longest ranged hit is 34,500 yards. If not then all modern torpedoes, which go for under the hull explosions, are designed to miss their targets :) .
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Source or it didn't happen. And max range a naval gun caused damage to a mobile enemy as intended and designed.
 
LudicrousSpeedGo said:
Source or it didn't happen. And max range a naval gun caused damage to a mobile enemy as intended and designed.
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Yamato versus White Plains at the Battle of Samar, as reconstructed from the US and Japanese after action reports by Robert Lundgren, in "The world wondered", page 27-36.

Yamato was firing shells optimized for underwater trajectories and the shell did exactly that, of course an escort carrier has about 14 feet less draft than a battleship so a shell that might penetrate the hull of an BB could go under a CVE.
 
LudicrousSpeedGo said:
I thought the longest actual hit was 26k yards? If so, 13-14 miles is the outer edge of "effective range".
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That's the longest recorded hit, by Warspite, which has a smaller gun than the Iowa class. A record hit by a 15 inch gun is not the same as the effective range of the best 16 inch guns ever made.

Effective range is where a hit against a moving target is not just possible but plausible. For the Iowa's that was about 20 miles.
 
I will note, once again, that I have little to no issue with discussion. The thread will go where the thread goes. Discussing stuff like ship capabilities is fine and dandy, honestly, if it's kept within reason. After all, discussing the effectiveness of an Iowa-at-range could end up coming up later on in the story. This being said, it should be kept to a reasonable level. We don't want to have pages of the thread taken up by back and forth arguing on one specific ship or something like that, unless- to use the old example -it's discussing what Hood will look like when she comes out of American docks or something.

That said, now that I've updated Lexie!Quest again, I'm planning on working on the next chapter tomorrow. Get some more material to discuss and all that stuff.
 
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Omake: New York
  • Sidestory
    • Thanks to Skywalker_T-65 for giving me the go-ahead for this omake.

    Omake - New York

    The sun warmed the decks of BatDiv 5 as they passed the Virginia Capes on the way back to Norfolk. The expression of USS New York remained frozen in a harsh frown as she stood underneath the tripod foremast.

    "I wish it was raining. There shouldn't be sunshine here. Ever." Murmuring to herself, her eyes caught sight of a girl with a parasol waving to her from the stern of the battleship in front of her. Why must she persist in this fruitless display? There were no changes to orders or anything else official, so why couldn't Texas just leave her alone?

    After sixteen years you would think she would get the hint. Maybe Arkansas finally ran out of stories or gossip... The fore finger of a right hand comes up to tap her cheek in thought as she turns to stairwell to the main deck. If it weren't for making sure the midshipmen from the Annapolis didn't run her aground in the bay she wouldn't even go topside at all.

    Through a hatch and down three more stairwells. The short haired blond woman in a navy blue business jacket and skirt continues on her way, not noticing the sailors she passes through. A left turn into a long passageway and through the bulkhead door into the boiler room, New York's preferred place to ignore the outside world. A sailor on the other side of the door shudders as if in a winter gale as she phases through him. New York doesn't even notice as she puts her hands on the railing of the gantry overlooking the boilers of her power plant. She sighs and then puts her hands to her head as her vision blurs red...

    What's happening? Why are they doing this to me? Aaahhhh.... it hurts it hurts so much.... I'm scared and it hurts. Why won't anyone help me? Oh! You're here! Please help me... it hurts... and.... what? What are you doing? What?!? Aaaiiiiii.......... New York could only hang her head as tears stream down her face and she racks with sobs.

    -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

    "Chief!!" A sailor stopped just before Chief of the Sovereign Nation of Engineering of BB34 gulping. "Sir, we've got a leak sir! Water's just streaming down the walls by the forward boilers."

    Chief Engineer Hackett reigned in his initial impulse to impale the sailor with the Chief Stare of Doom upon realizing that the midshipman was on his first training sea tour. He sighed. "Midshipman, if the boilers were leaking that bad while we are underway at full power you would not be alive to report it, as they would have exploded."

    "It is more water than should be there Chief."

    "Son, every ship has its quirks. This is your first cruise on New York and I have been taking you children out for training cruises for longer than I care to remember and if I say that there is no problem, then there is no problem. Am I clear Midshipman?"

    "Yes Chief!"

    "Then scram kid, we're pulling into Norfolk anytime now." And at the gladly retreating back of the midshipman Chief Engineer Hackett bellowed, "And do not make me have to pick you up from the Shore Patrol or bilge duty will seem like Heaven!" Hackett then went into his office and locked the door behind him. Pulling out a large ledger book, he began to make an entry. Reading back through past entries, Hackett sighed.

    "Dammit York, what the hell is wrong with you girl?"

    -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

    Norfolk Navy Yard - midnight

    "Texas," a slightly uncertain voice over the TBS inquired, "can I ask you something?"

    "Certainly Wichita, what is troubling you dear?" Wondering what could be on the mind of the Navy's newest heavy cruiser, she made sure to put the most reassurance into her voice as she could. Poor girl needs all the confidence she can get. And that nickname can't help.

    "A couple things really... you've heard the rumors right? That there's an admiral who can see and touch us? Is that really possible?" And in a quieter tone that Texas almost missed, "Could he tell my crew to stop calling me that name? I'm too new to be haunted and spooky."

    Texas put her hand to her mouth to stifle the giggle. "Ahm not certain dear. Ah've heard the rumors, it seems that's y'all are gossiping about lately." She sighed. "But no, ah've no idea if it's true."

    "What does New York think? I rarely even see her so I've never asked her." A slight hesitation and the cruiser continued. "The other girls say that she's an ice queen but she's never even acknowledged my existence beyond official signals so I can't say for certain."

    Texas sighed. "Wichita, hon, I'm gonna say this so you don't go sailing off into a minefield. My sister has been hurtin sumthing awful for sixteen years and to make sure she never talks about it she just refuses to talk period. I figure she'll snap out of it at some point, but I better be the one to do the snappin' so's no one gets hurt."

    "Oh okay, thanks Texas. Have a good night!"

    "Pleasant dreams dear." Texas put her parasol down and began a much more emotionally fraught conversation.

    "Sister... we need to talk about things... it has been long enough"

    New York lifted her head from her hands. "USS Texas the radio is for official communications..."

    "You've been moping like a calf for sixteen year USS New York and I am beginning to get annoyed. Very annoyed. I was there too Sis. Both of us. And it was horrible an' awful and don't you dare say anything because I have the nightmares too." Raw emotion flooded Texas's voice "But most of all I want my sister back. I was there to help, to help you bear that weight Sis, but you won't let me."

    "I...I can't stop Sis. No matter how many defoulings, coats of new paint... I can't feel clean anymore. I just see the blood... and the tears... and that face pleading with us. She was begging us to help her Tex! And we executed her! I can't forgive myself or them."

    At that last word, even the mighty Texas shivered at the venom and hate in her sister's voice. It's way overdue but... how do I get her past this? Texas, with added bravado in the hope it would carry the tone she was hoping for, switched tack. "Alright then will you at least start showing yourself above deck more? You are starting to get a reputation as Glacier Garters among the fleet."

    "What?!?" New York's train of thought derailed as the paradigm shifted without benefit of the clutch. Her anger shifted to the slight. "Are you calling me an ice queen Sister?"

    "No, but you certainly haven't done anything to dispel that notion from everyone else. And if you keep it up it will effect your duty."

    "..." New York could only sigh at that. "You may be..."

    "Maybe? Damn straight ah'm right you blue-stocking harridan" Texas interrupted her in her full Don't Mess with Texas accent.

    "snerk.... alright then I will try to 'socialize' more with you southern-fried cornpone shit-kicking hicks." New York tried put as much Bronx into her accent as she could allow her self.

    "Then I expect you to promenade your deck tomorrow morning. And that's an order as your flagship... Sis." New York could mentally see Texas sticking out her tongue. "It's good to talk to you again.. I missed you.

    New York sniffed back the last of her grief for now. "I missed you too..."

    -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

    To be New York is to be a hurt locker...
     
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  • Sidestory
    • MagisterAurelius said:
    Thanks to Skywalker_T-65 for giving me the go-ahead for this omake.

    Omake - New York

    The sun warmed the decks of BatDiv 5 as they passed the Virginia Capes on the way back to Norfolk. The expression of USS New York remained frozen in a harsh frown as she stood underneath the tripod foremast.

    "I wish it was raining. There shouldn't be sunshine here. Ever." Murmuring to herself, her eyes caught sight of a girl with a parasol waving to her from the stern of the battleship in front of her. Why must she persist in this fruitless display? There were no changes to orders or anything else official, so why couldn't Texas just leave her alone?

    After sixteen years you would think she would get the hint. Maybe Arkansas finally ran out of stories or gossip... The fore finger of a right hand comes up to tap her cheek in thought as she turns to stairwell to the main deck. If it weren't for making sure the cadets from the Annapolis didn't run her aground in the bay she wouldn't even go topside at all.

    Through a hatch and down three more stairwells. The short haired blond woman in a navy blue business jacket and skirt continues on her way, not noticing the sailors she passes through. A left turn into a long passageway and through the bulkhead door into the boiler room, New York's preferred place to ignore the outside world. A cadet on the other side of the door shudders as if in a winter gale as she phases through him. New York doesn't even notice as she puts her hands on the railing of the gantry overlooking the boilers of her power plant. She sighs and then puts her hands to her head as her vision blurs red...

    What's happening? Why are they doing this to me? Aaahhhh.... it hurts it hurts so much.... I'm scared and it hurts. Why won't anyone help me? Oh! You're here! Please help me... it hurts... and.... what? What are you doing? What?!? Aaaiiiiii.......... New York could only hang her head as tears stream down her face and she racks with sobs.

    -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

    "Chief!!" A sailor stopped just before Chief of the Sovereign Nation of Engineering of BB34 gulping. "Sir, we've got a leak sir! Water's just streaming down the walls by the forward boilers."

    Chief Engineer Hackett reigned in his initial impulse to impale the sailor with the Chief Stare of Doom upon realizing that the cadet was on his first training sea tour. He sighed. "Cadet, if the boilers were leaking that bad while we are underway at full power you would not be alive to report it, as they would have exploded."

    "It is more water than should be there Chief."

    "Cadet, every ship has its quirks. This is your first cruise on New York and I have been taking you cadets out for training cruises for longer than I care to remember and if I say that there is no problem, then there is no problem. Am I clear cadet?"

    "Yes Chief!"

    "Then scram kid, we're pulling into Norfolk anytime now." And at the gladly retreating back of the cadet Chief Engineer Hackett bellowed, "And do not make me have to pick you up from the Shore Patrol or bilge duty will seem like Heaven!" Hackett then went into his office and locked the door behind him. Pulling out a large ledger book, he began to make an entry. Reading back through past entries, Hackett sighed.

    "Dammit York, what the hell is wrong with you girl?"

    -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

    Norfolk Navy Yard - midnight

    "Texas," a slightly uncertain voice over the TBS inquired, "can I ask you something?"

    "Certainly Wichita, what is troubling you dear?" Wondering what could be on the mind of the Navy's newest heavy cruiser, she made sure to put the most reassurance into her voice as she could. Poor girl needs all the confidence she can get. And that nickname can't help.

    "A couple things really... you've heard the rumors right? That there's an admiral who can see and touch us? Is that really possible?" And in a quieter tone that Texas almost missed, "Could he tell my crew to stop calling me that name? I'm too new to be haunted and spooky."

    Texas put her hand to her mouth to stifle the giggle. "Ahm not certain dear. Ah've heard the rumors, it seems that's y'all are gossiping about lately." She sighed. "But no, ah've no idea if it's true."

    "What does New York think? I rarely even see her so I've never asked her." A slight hesitation and the cruiser continued. "The other girls say that she's an ice queen but she's never even acknowledged my existence beyond official signals so I can't say for certain."

    Texas sighed. "Wichita, hon, I'm gonna say this so you don't go sailing off into a minefield. My sister has been hurtin sumthing awful for sixteen years and to make sure she never talks about it she just refuses to talk period. I figure she'll snap out of it at some point, but I better be the one to do the snappin' so's no one gets hurt."

    "Oh okay, thanks Texas. Have a good night!"

    "Pleasant dreams dear." Texas put her parasol down and began a much more emotionally fraught conversation.

    "Sister... we need to talk about things... it has been long enough"

    New York lifted her head from her hands. "USS Texas the radio is for official communications..."

    "You've been moping like a calf for sixteen year USS New York and I am beginning to get annoyed. Very annoyed. I was there too Sis. Both of us. And it was horrible an' awful and don't you dare say anything because I have the nightmares too." Raw emotion flooded Texas's voice "But most of all I want my sister back. I was there to help, to help you bear that weight Sis, but you won't let me."

    "I...I can't stop Sis. No matter how many defoulings, coats of new paint... I can't feel clean anymore. I just see the blood... and the tears... and that face pleading with us. She was begging us to help her Tex! And we executed her! I can't forgive myself or them."

    At that last word, even the mighty Texas shivered at the venom and hate in her sister's voice. It's way overdue but... how do I get her past this? Texas, with added bravado in the hope it would carry the tone she was hoping for, switched tack. "Alright then will you at least start showing yourself above deck more? You are starting to get a reputation as Glacier Garters among the fleet."

    "What?!?" New York's train of thought derailed as the paradigm shifted without benefit of the clutch. Her anger shifted to the slight. "Are you calling me an ice queen Sister?"

    "No, but you certainly haven't done anything to dispel that notion from everyone else. And if you keep it up it will effect your duty."

    "..." New York could only sigh at that. "You may be..."

    "Maybe? Damn straight ah'm right you blue-stocking harridan" Texas interrupted her in her full Don't Mess with Texas accent.

    "snerk.... alright then I will try to 'socialize' more with you southern-fried cornpone shit-kicking hicks." New York tried put as much Bronx into her accent as she could allow her self.

    "Then I expect you to promenade your deck tomorrow morning. And that's an order as your flagship... Sis." New York could mentally see Texas sticking out her tongue. "It's good to talk to you again.. I missed you.

    New York sniffed back the last of her grief for now. "I missed you too..."

    -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

    To be New York is to be a hurt locker...
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    Like it but one problem, as one myself I feel obliged to point this out, the Army has Cadets, the Navy has Midshipmen.
     
    Yup. New York and Texas were called in to sink BB47 after torpedos, 400 lbs of TNT applied to the hull, and air dropped 14 inch shells failed to do the job. It still took 14 shells from the two of them to finally sink her.
     
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