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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Spectre said:
does this mean in the future we'll see destroyers sending ransom videos to carriers demanding ice cream for fairy pilots they pulled out of the drink.
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Well considering that's what they did in the war...of course, when the DD girls are all adorable, they don't really need to make ransom videos. Just ask nicely and be adorable and the CV in question would likely say yes.
 
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Dirtnap said:
Well considering that's what they did in the war...of course, when the DD girls are all adorable, they don't really need to make ransom videos. Just ask nicely and be adorable and the CV in question would likely say yes.
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but they might still do it.... you know, for old times sake.
 
Shaithan said:
Little side-note here. The Nazis aren't considered an exactly legitimate government by the Germans.
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While what you say is technically true for post-war Germans, the Nazis were very much regarded as the legitimate government by the Germans of 1940. Between the Fall of France and the invasion of Russia going to pieces, it even managed to be a popular one.

one of the first things when discussing them is learning how they actually broke a lot of laws to grab power as they did and how they used intimidation tactics and outright violence to ensure that "democratic" votes in the Reichstag turned out in their favor and sealed their power grab. They were a government but no one would ever call them legitimate. It doesn't get outright stated, but it is very, very, very heavily implied that the Nazis were in fact usurpers to power.
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Not... exactly. The mechanisms the Nazis used to come to power were entirely legal within the framework of the Weimar Constitution. Now some of the methods they used to manipulate said mechanisms certainly were of dubious legality (like the intimidation tactics you are referring to), but not all of them. Hitler's appointment as Reichschancellor by Von Hindenberg, for example, was done via plenty of skeevy political backdoor dealing but was in the end 100% legal.
 
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obssesednuker said:
Not... exactly.The mechanisms the Nazis used to come to power were entirely legal within the framework of the Weimar Constitution. Now some of the methods they used to manipulate said mechanisms certainly were of dubious legality (like the intimidation tactics you are referring to), but not all of them. Hitler's appointment as Reichschancellor by Von Hindenberg, for example, was done via plenty of skeevy political backdoor dealing but was in the end 100% legal.
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This was legal, yes. Pretty much everything afterwards ... wasn't. Really, it's a lot of stuff that was outright illegal such as imprisoning members of the Reichstag to take away their ability to vote and then counting their votes in your favor for one thing. They blatantly rigged the process to get the "legitimate, democratic mandate" to become dictators.

What I meant to express is that someone from contemporary Germany wouldn't privately refer to the Nazis as the legitimate government. They'd be a or the government, but not with any qualifier expressing their legitimacy. The best they could hope for (outside of Neonazi circles) would be "this currently well-regarded and successful dictatorship" in private. Or, far more often "this bunch of fuckwads".
 
If, BIG FUCKING IF, our German friend can get about 100 crewmen to agree with him he can make a run for England.

He can't do so with a whole crew due to the fact that those guys probably joined up to serve Germany cause that is basically treason as they know it. And likely end up with the ship scuttled and Schreiber dead. These guys were patriotic to Germany and the fact that it's under control of Nazis is an annoyance to them but not enough for treason, remember at this time the Party was still considered relatively good*.

So a run for either England or anywhere else is very unlikely to the point of SOB snapping.

But if he can get about 100 similar mind men he could do it. Cause that about the Miminum that you need to run a ship the size of Bismarck, give or take a few.

And by run I mean get the engines working. To watch the boilers and the turbines and steer her. Plus a few to guide her.

No guns and no damcon worth the name. Get in a fight and the Brits are not listening to surrender calls, which they have done, she fucked.

But the above is still a very big factor so he'll be lucky to find twenty, which is no way near enough.


*The living quality was up, the people had food, jobs and what they need. And they were winning. The war has yet to turn against them. Life was good. Nothing about the camps or similar has happened or made the news yet.
 
Aw~~ Its over. And we still didn't get to see Skipjack give the Admirals an aneurysm yet.

I wonder if they're going to show the sudden paint job.
 
Firefinder12-B said:
If, BIG FUCKING IF, our German friend can get about 100 crewmen to agree with him he can make a run for England.

He can't do so with a whole crew due to the fact that those guys probably joined up to serve Germany cause that is basically treason as they know it. And likely end up with the ship scuttled and Schreiber dead. These guys were patriotic to Germany and the fact that it's under control of Nazis is an annoyance to them but not enough for treason, remember at this time the Party was still considered relatively good*.

So a run for either England or anywhere else is very unlikely to the point of SOB snapping.

But if he can get about 100 similar mind men he could do it. Cause that about the Miminum that you need to run a ship the size of Bismarck, give or take a few.

And by run I mean get the engines working. To watch the boilers and the turbines and steer her. Plus a few to guide her.

No guns and no damcon worth the name. Get in a fight and the Brits are not listening to surrender calls, which they have done, she fucked.

But the above is still a very big factor so he'll be lucky to find twenty, which is no way near enough.


*The living quality was up, the people had food, jobs and what they need. And they were winning. The war has yet to turn against them. Life was good. Nothing about the camps or similar has happened or made the news yet.
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maybe he's planning on Mutsu'ing her. only need one person for that.
 
Point of order re: Schreiber and the Nazis.

It's not that he remotely sees the Nazis as legitimate. It's that he knows what any actions against them would look like to those outside him and whomever he has on his side. It may not have read like that, for which I blame the whole, all-nighter thing.


Spectre said:
Wonder how Thompsons Japanese counterpart (if there is one) is dealing with his internal politics.
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Hm.

Though I'll note I never said either way on if a Japanese guy went back or not.

Anti-No said:
So. Operation Sealion might become a possibility, if Schreiber succeeds?
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As Nuker said, even if you manage to sink the entire Royal Navy (which the Germans don't have the resources to do) there just isn't the infrastructure or anything like that to pull off a Sealion. Even if there was, most of that material is going East anyway.


ecs05norway said:
"If Marko Ramius could do it, so can I!" - No Admiral Ever.
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:rofl:

Shaithan said:
Also, in many chapters you write Kreigsmarine instead of Kriegsmarine.
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...damnit spellcheck, why u do dis to me...

Joking aside, will keep a closer eye on that.

Dirtnap said:
So...they're gonna go visit Skipjack.

$5 says she nicks King's wallet.
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theJMPer said:
You mean acquires a brand new wallet at the same time that--purely coincidentally--King misplaces his?
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Heh.

Vianca said:
For that German, I would requist waiting till Bismark her sister ship is ready as well.
Germany was also working on a carrier, but after the loss of the Bismark, they stopped working on it, the USSR played a bit with it, before using it as a target.
If he can get them together, finished, for a heavy raid...

For Japan, pushing for the third Yamato class to be build as a carrier straight from the start, for one.
Zipang plot.
Greater focus on the submarines, I-21 & I-400 classes being used in greater numbers and on a wider spread of missions.

USA, getting those never builded Lexington Battlecruisers build, so they have some good escort ships for the carriers.
Pushing true the build of the Iowa and Montana classes for the same reason.
If their construction was not halted, they could maybe have prevented the loss of some of the carriers.
Getting a dockship designed and build, recovery and transport of heavily damaged ships becomes then way easier.
Getting the Merlin Engine and pushing true anti-submarine warfare tavtics, including convoy and city night lights, before it was tohave happend.
King is a problem, from 41 to 45, strike iron while it is hot and try to leek the current high admiral around, King was retirement age in 42.
He does not get that if England starts to suggest things to solve a problem, you are already way to late with solving said problem.
Wich if he anti england habit is true, could get him to maybe act before they can even make said suggestions?
O, who am I kidding???
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Tirp isn't quite close enough to being fully worked up to matter. Only so much delaying one can do when Hitler wants you to move. Graf had construction halted in the middle of 1940 by order of Raeder. Getting her finished would take even longer.

Not saying anything on Japan.

The Lexington's were all scrapped (save Sara/Lex) in the '20s. Restarting one from scratch would be a waste of materials with the Iowa class around.
 
Always Late said:
That's the key word. Ultimately. Hitler's 'we kick in the door, and they crumble' wasn't entirely inaccurate. The recent purges and Winter War left the Red Army weak... but they are rebuilding. But Germany is also building up itself, so going early is to its disadvantage. The whole situation's a 'pick the least worst option'.
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I'd really argue that Barbarossa was the best time to invade, if any. Granted, it is completely unwinnable, but the Red Army improved a lot faster than the Wehrmacht did, and the Wehrmacht as of 1941 was going to be the best it could do. Remember, they only fully switched to a total war footing when it became clear that they were losing.

Plus, I'm not quite sure that we could equate the Nazis and Soviets in general. The Soviets are definitely up there, but I'd say it's a fairly distant second place in most cases. Of course, that gets into genocide olympics, which never works out, so maybe I'll drop that line.
 
I know with Iowa's around, that might sound useless.
But it is to make a point.
All other heavy gun units are way too slow.
Finish those builds, yesterday.
 
Firefinder12-B said:
But the above is still a very big factor so he'll be lucky to find twenty, which is no way near enough.
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Probably true. Best he could do would be remembering where 'secret jews' were and drag them along - but risky, probably not enough and probably untrained. Grabbing everyone in one camp or another? ...definitely people with lots of motivation to help get out of there, but not exactly 'battle ready'. And getting them out of the camp and to the ship would itself be very iffy, even if there is such a camp in easy reach of the ship guns.

Mind you, 'german warship steals a death camp full of undesirables and runs' would definitely have been something to point at in the aftermath of the war if the allies win, but the chance of success seems initially low.

Admiral Schreiber is not in a very enviable situation here. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. His current plan has a good chance of succeeding in the objective while simultaneously failing in his longterm goals. The hard thing here will be to act honorably, because to get close to success will mean his every act, on and off the battlefield will be scrutinized by enemy and 'ally' both during and after the fact.
 
Why are we debating the best way for Schreiber to defect? He is where he is to do the best he can for Germany.

The legitimacy of the Nazis, the odiousness of fighting for the Axis, etc... is irrelevant. The good of the people of Germany, *not* the government or his personal preference is his ultimate duty. That oath does not come with an expiration date.
 
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Best way would to inform the generals that tried to assassin AH, that the planks of the table are layed wrong for that and they need to turn them 90º.
Sure, it would take time, but it lets him get out while the getting is good.
 
I don't much care for Thompson, but I'm finding a soft spot for Schreiber. Mostly because it looks like he won't defect. Yes, he hates the Nazis. Yes, he hates most of his high command. Yes, he know's staying will mean the death of good men on the 'right' side of the war. But he swore to protect the German people, and he's going to do it even if he hates every moment of it.

That said, I wish he had someone else to bounce off of. Bismark acts pretty boring, is lacking in wit, and doesn't seem to have any strong personality traits.
 
Nottheunmaker said:
I don't much care for Thompson, but I'm finding a soft spot for Schreiber. Mostly because it looks like he won't defect. Yes, he hates the Nazis. Yes, he hates most of his high command. Yes, he know's staying will mean the death of good men on the 'right' side of the war. But he swore to protect the German people, and he's going to do it even if he hates every moment of it.

That said, I wish he had someone else to bounce off of. Bismark acts pretty boring, is lacking in wit, and doesn't seem to have any strong personality traits.
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A lot of Bismarck's personality is yet to develop, because she hasn't even had her first sortie yet. Not to mention she has only recently completed Sea Trials.
 
Thorthemighty said:
A lot of Bismarck's personality is yet to develop, because she hasn't even had her first sortie yet. Not to mention she has only recently completed Sea Trials.
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What, she can't have anything going on before then? No opinions to express? No independent thoughts tugging at her noggin? No notions to conceive and discuss? I don't buy that.
 
Vianca said:
I know with Iowa's around, that might sound useless.
But it is to make a point.
All other heavy gun units are way too slow.
Finish those builds, yesterday.
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There's no builds to complete. Other than Lex and Sara, the Lexington-class battlecruisers and the South Dakota (BB-49)-class battleships were all broken up on the ways in late 1923 to comply with the terms of the Washington Treaty. By 1940, the Lexingtons in question look like about 104 billion copies of this:


You'd have to start over from scratch to build them, at which point you're better off building more Iowas, because they're better-protected than the Lexingtons were going to be. But then, the US Navy cancelled the last two Iowas so they could reassign the steel and slipways to carrier construction (Illinois and Kentucky had their keels laid, then were broken up on the ways to clear them for carriers, then were restarted later on in the war, when the carrier issue was less pressing), so the odds of building additional Iowas to send a message is low indeed.

(And yes, I did do the math--we're talking just a hair under 26 billion razor blades per Lexington-class CC, based on their design displacement of 45,000 tons.)
 
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rdfox said:
There's no builds to complete. Other than Lex and Sara, the Lexington-class battlecruisers and the South Dakota (BB-49)-class battleships were all broken up on the ways in late 1923 to comply with the terms of the Washington Treaty. By 1940, the Lexingtons in question look like about 104 billion copies of this:


You'd have to start over from scratch to build them, at which point you're better off building more Iowas, because they're better-protected than the Lexingtons were going to be. But then, the US Navy cancelled the last two Iowas so they could reassign the steel and slipways to carrier construction (Illinois and Kentucky had their keels laid, then were broken up on the ways to clear them for carriers, then were restarted later on in the war, when the carrier issue was less pressing), so the odds of building additional Iowas to send a message is low indeed.

(And yes, I did do the math--we're talking just a hair under 26 billion razor blades per Lexington-class CC, based on their design displacement of 45,000 tons.)
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You do not get it.
It is a statement our dear Admiral could use, that shows he doesn't hate the gun toting ships, IF they can keep up with the carriers.

Afteral, everybody was still in the battleship rage untill Pearl happend.
 
Vianca said:
You do not get it.
It is a statement our dear Admiral could use, that shows he doesn't hate the gun toting ships, IF they can keep up with the carriers.

Afteral, everybody was still in the battleship rage untill Pearl happend.
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You are saying for him to tell the admirals to finish the ships that have been scrapped and odds are part of the newer ships. He will look crazy.

There is nothing to finish, work stop on them in the 1920s, before 1924. It early 1941, they are GONE. The torch done its work and the only thing left of them is the guns for them. Which are being used by the Army.
 
Vianca said:
You do not get it.
It is a statement our dear Admiral could use, that shows he doesn't hate the gun toting ships, IF they can keep up with the carriers.

Afteral, everybody was still in the battleship rage untill Pearl happend.
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Already established. ADM Wilson's beef wasn't that Thompson wanted to get rid of BBs, it was that he would dethrone them as queens of the ocean and relegate them to a support role only.
 
LudicrousSpeedGo said:
Already established. ADM Wilson's beef wasn't that Thompson wanted to get rid of BBs, it was that he would dethrone them as queens of the ocean and relegate them to a support role only.
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That didn't sit well with the Battleship Boys, with the exception of the commanders of the Fast Battleships that were starting to come online during this time, or well the first Fast Battleship in the USN: USS North Carolina has already been launched and is likely on Sea Trials at this time, either that or construction is just wrapping up on her.
 
Vianca said:
You do not get it.
It is a statement our dear Admiral could use, that shows he doesn't hate the gun toting ships, IF they can keep up with the carriers.

Afteral, everybody was still in the battleship rage untill Pearl happend.
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No, you seem to be the one not getting it.

The Lexington-class battlecruisers do not exist any more. They all had their construction suspended in the summer of 1922, pursuant to Treaty terms, and the orders for all but Lexington and Saratoga were cancelled on 17 August 1923. Even if the Washington Treaty had not stipulated that their hulks be either scrapped or sunk (as happened to Washington BB-47 on 25 November 1924 in a damage control experiment), there is no way in hell that the yards would have left their largest construction slipways occupied by literally half-built ships that the Navy had cancelled its orders for, particularly not for another seventeen years. They are gone. They were broken up into scrap metal in late 1923 and early 1924, and are most likely either high-quality razor blades, or incorporated into Japanese destroyers and cruisers built in the interwar period.

You cannot complete the builds, because there is nothing left to complete. Their machinery was used in reconstructing the Standards in the late 20s, their guns were going to be used on the Iowas (but I think by this date, the whole BuOrd/BuShips clusterfuck about turret design had come to light, so they'd have been transferred to the Army by now), their armor was never delivered, and their hulls were scrapped long enough ago that there would be midshipmen at Annapolis who were born after the scrapping was finished. "Completing the builds" would literally require you to built four new ships, from scratch, to a twenty-year-old design that was of questionable value when it was completed; pushing for that would probably be seen as further attempts to reduce the role of the battleship, because those four battlecruisers could not act as part of a battle line (as the Iowas could) and would compete for resources that battleships would require.

Any push for "completing" the Lexingtons would just make the Admiral's position worse; the only thing that might help him would be pushing for more Iowas to escort the carriers, and we already know what the feasible limits of that are from OTL.
 
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