Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Again, this is not a question of mistakes. Yes, Voz's policy didn't actually do much to address the issues of rurals - but even if it did, so what? How exactly does it translate into political advantage when that population is not interested in the vast majority of political issues, does not have the opportunity to become interested in or influence them and is not all that interested in gaining said opportunity? Sure, it's possible that with enough proper investment, a private rural base interested in supporting Abramov's initiatives they don't really care about in exchange for favorable rural politics will arise, but the effort spent cultivating it is much better spent elsewhere. I am not seeing the evidence of that mythical significant untapped rural potential that will produce cadres on cheap, and I am doubly not seeing why would it be in small producers and not SOEs.
The fact Klimenko said so and Voz thought so before being bamboozled by an angry farmer is pretty clear indication it is the case that rural cadres can be harvested to some extent. Like, we are getting the same conclusion from two vastly different PoVs. Obviously we can and should be skeptical of the narration to some extent, but that to me is pretty clear indication they are on to something.

And honestly, why wouldn't they be? The population in the countryside is represented by Party members just as anyone else, and I don't see why pork geared to their electorate would not work whilst pork to urbanites would. We have had tons of projects marked pork located all over the Union, so its not like its not a thing.

As for the SoEs, yes, they do have some political relevance but its worth remembering they literally failed the goals set out for them. The Party probably isn't super pleased with them, and their support is worth more internally than anywhere else. And since the winning plans backing the smallholders are going after Dygai and not Smelyakov its just not worth fucking over a bunch of people just to throw them a bone imo
Also even if you somehow manage to cultivate a powerbase in the rurals that powerbase isn't just going to be an infinite cadre printer it is going to need constant maintenance and kickbacks to keep their support. Like Voz experince with the students just helping them isn't enough you have to align with their interest and if we fail to do that then we won't benefit from enfranchising them. With that said i understand supporting it from a humanitarian view just not politically.
Honestly, I don't think backing them would be that expensive compared to the enteprises. The money for the enteprises to expand come out of our pocket, as opposed to the smallholders who take out a loan or fund themselves with their own money. Insurance is probably going to make us money, not lose it, and the biggest expense is stuff we should be doing anyway: roads

The only other expense worth noting is educational programs, and like, I don't expect that to exactly break bank either and its just good policy imo
 
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I think targeting Smelyakov first is seriously a bad idea. It would be nice to remove a major threat immediately, but we'd be attacking the strongest remaining player in the ministry without time to secure our own power base or gather comprehensive evidence. Beyond that, we'd be leaving the most publicly hated figure in place while broadening the front and attacking someone capable of the most the shit-slinging, and thus increasing the chances that more corruption comes to light before we are making any progress - increasing the chances of demands for more decisive action, political swings towards Masherov, and potentially public protests to which the state wouldn't respond well.

[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization
[X] Plan Pragmatic Rationalization
 
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we need genuine rural development and that is the biggest reason to back the small producers option
because it will open us up important options to make life better for every soviet citizen
remember too there are rural proletarians
rural trade unions and towns

I also thought we had back in the stalin years turned the small producers into kibbutzum anyway
 
[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization
--[X]Retire Dygai
--[X]Prioritize Unmanned Programs
--[X]Back Small Producers

On who to fire:

So I am not sure that retiring Dygai first is the right move, I am inclined to thinking we should tackle the harder problem of Smelyakov first. In general, when doing anti-corruption or similarly difficult political projects, it is wise to start off with the hardest problem first, since there's no guarantee that political capital will be left to tackle the problem later. But I am willing to give an otherwise good plan a confidence vote.

________

On the space program:

I do concur that we should prioritize the unmanned programs. The Luna program remains a low risk program (Luna being closer than Mars or Venus means there's much more chance our electronics survive the trip) that can synergize with the other probe programs, can help push forward electronics, maintain prestige and develop hardware (and potentially interest) for a future manned Lunar landing. Also, if we don't continue the extended Luna program, there's little chance that we'll get another chance at it. Becoming completely disinterested in the moon means, should an American landing happen, it will actually cost prestige to start sending probes at Luna. Whereas, if we keep throwing probes at the moon, even if the Americans land, the propagandists can crow about how our robots are just so much better than those silly American manned landers (whether or not they actually are doesn't matter, so long as the program is going, they'll have to say it).

The FGB is actually very useful, providing an huge expansion in capability for the manned program - it isn't just life support, it is also more room to work in, and the VA capsule just doesn't have much of that. It is also a good foundation for a future station, but... Here's the thing, a station program is something we're going to have other chances to start and if we have the VA capsule, then at minimum there will be further chances to add an extended work area/life support/cargo boot on vehicle, since if you have a capsule that can be mated to an FGB type extension, it'll be relatively cheap to add such an extension, similar to the reason why developing the RLA-3 and 5 together means that it will be relatively easy to complete the RLA-5 down the line if we ever need it. And most critically, the FGB-VA will add almost nothing to our electronics programs at this point (no need for anything like the Apollo Guidance Computer for work in Earth Orbit, which is where we'll be staying for the foreseeable future).

So as great as the FGB is, it just isn't as useful as the Luna program.

The other projects being cancelled/scaled back include two that I consider vitally important - the orbital docking systems, which we only get to keep if we burn the whole unmanned probe program (including even a remnant Atmospheric Data Satellite program!), and thus just isn't worth it - and the Atmospheric Data Satellites, which we can't avoid being cut back, but can at least avoid being cancelled outright.

________

On agriculture:

I really don't get why so many people are going full Stalinist here. The small farmers are key to maintaining a functional agriculture system because we don't have direct control over them. Extending state control will be a bloomin' disaster because fundamentally, the Bolshevik party was filled with people who had a deep anti-peasant classism and the lingering hangover from that and the horrors it created in the civil war STILL infect party men when they deal with agriculture because the classism at this point is structural. Plus, growing the party-bureaucratic farming enterprises only makes our farming crisis worse because it gives more power to people who will try to do more "line go up" at a time when we have an over-production problem. Even if we don't do well in siding with the small producers, it's still important to fight for small farmers because to not fight at all means the rural enterprise managers will have no resistance to their efforts to extend their power and make agriculture less about actually producing the food needed and instead more about destroying the countryside and the rural population in order to produce even more unneeded grain.

On top of that lighting a fire under the rural roads program and providing insurance are things that would ACTUALLY help the agricultural sector, rather than useless ideological hot air. If we roll well, we can make rural life better and thus further buttress our food production capabilities (most critically, smallholders at the moment generally produce higher value foods that provide better nutrition, rather than yet more grain). Plus, if we gain the support of small farmers for Abramov's faction, it will be a huge windfall from Abramov and Klim's political viability. And given Abramov's social conservatism and pro-ordinary worker attitudes which should make him above average at actually listening to rural people, this is probably a historic opportunity to win buy-in to the system from a group of people who are otherwise currently politically alienated and vulnerable to capitalist propaganda. Having met people from Polish and Bulgarian farming families, and I have to say, I think it's worth it to try winning hearts and minds here.

Plus, I trust Kosygin's judgement and think its worth helping him.

[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization (hard stuff first)
--[X]Retire Smelyakov
--[X]Prioritize Unmanned Programs
--[X]Back Small Producers

So there's what I think is the best plan. Same as Lunar Rationalization, but sending Smelyakov to Sakhalin first.

Also, some more confidence votes:

[X] I am just a little guy
[X]Plan: Smack down that private insurance

Regards,

fasquardon

EDIT: cleared up typos and made formatting better, because I think the agriculture and space program matters are important and want people to reconsider their votes.
EDIT2: Realized that plan "I am just a little guy" was the same as the plan I made, so adding a vote for that, while keeping my own plan, since several people have voted for it already. Also voted for "Smack down that private insurance" because it was the same as Lunar Rationalization.
 
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[X] I am just a little guy
[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization (hard stuff first)
(huh, somehow ended up with two identical plans?)

EDIT: Stinky approval vote also
[X] Plan De-Voznefication

Smelly Yucky sounds like bad news and I'd rather rip this fetid bandaid off before he builds up a suicide vest of corruption around the ministry of Heavy Industry. Man, knowing just how much he sucks getting to fire only one of the trio feels limiting.

I originally favored a rationalization that wouldn't completely abandon manned spaceflight ambitions, but I realized that we likely will not have enough funding allowance to properly develop both probes and space stations at once. Let's go probes and try stations again later, when we have more material science and microchips.

With the rurals, what flipped me from just not burning political capital to supporting the small farms was the Crop Insurance, that seems like a pretty important thing to solidify. I know the USSR is chaotic right now but I am not convinced that our agenda is so precarious that it lives or dies by whether we lick the boots of the state-owned agribusinesses. At least posts like these:
We are running short on labor anyway, as of last turn, so in terms of running the ministry I think the best choice is backing the SOEs to increase the pace of urbanisation. Plus, Masherov's star appears to be on the rise and Kosgyn's is waning, so backing Masherov will get us the right friends, as well as more friends.
You base your solution based on politics
I base it on disdain for small farmers lmao lets see you whine about eating a fine for pesticides overuse now
Are pretty honest about wanting to screw the small farmers for some purpose (Seriously though VonVonson what's go you so opposed to smallholders), but the glee with which several other voters here are pouring the blood of the little folk into the political sausage maker is rather alarming me. What am I missing?
 
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[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization

[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization (hard stuff first)

I agree with fas that going with the hard target first on a corruption strike is the best but am also adding the base lunar rationalization to make sure that I don't split my vote on an issue I am not ride or die on.
 
[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization

[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization (hard stuff first)
 
Right, but Voz was an idiot who didn't realize the SOE's pocketed the subsidies.
I don't think Voz didn't realize that.

I think Voz thought of that as "working as intended," because when Voz thought of "building rural cadres," Voz was thinking of "building up a cadre of influential Party members in rural areas," that is to say, the kind of guys who appreciate it when you subsidize the state-owned enterprises they have a lot of friends and relatives in.

Voz wasn't stupid. Voz just didn't give a shit about a lot of things that weren't real or weren't important to him. Consolidating political support absolutely was important to him, so I'd expect him to actually be pretty good at bribing people. At least until he started to lose his grip on reality because he didn't understand the full range of other people's motivations.

The big thing the RLA-5 had going for it was just how relatively cheap it was for what it gaves us. A brand new bespoke rocket system on that scale should definitely be canceled because it just won't be used enough to justify all those development costs unless those few things it is used for are massively important, but on the grand scale of things the RLA-5 was actually coming in at a massive discount compared to what what a rocket of that size could have cost.

With the RLA-5 it gets us almost twice the lift capacity on a single rocket, and to get that we don't have to blow money designing new engines and rocket bodies, blow money expanding our launch infrastructure to handle it, blow money settings up a production line for just that large rocket, and enough of the work necessary was already being done in the RLA-3 that we were getting a third off the ongoing development costs for it.

Even if it was never going to be used much, it wasn't really costing that much in the big picture.
The thing is, the RLA-5 will still have all these advantages if we come back to the concept five or ten years from now, if that's when we actually need it. The beauty of it being a straightforward adaptation of an already extant rocket design is that we can straightforwardly adapt it from a rocket design our own future selves will already be using.

And we will go on using the RLA and RLA-3 for a long time, just as the OTL Soviet Union went on using, say, the Proton rocket which serves in a loosely comparable role.

Something like the Saturn V dies if you stop funding the development project, because none of its parts are based on anything being used in any other design. Something like RLA-5 does not.

While I'm glad that there's actual discussion on something besides space for once, DO NOT CUT BACK THE LUNA PROGRAM! "Rationalize the Cutbacks" is straight up worse than "Prioritize Unmanned Programs" - cutting back the FGB (a 3-month life support bus that we have no need for with the moonshot gone) is infinitely preferable to cutting back the Luna program (our one hope of getting any more political wins in the Moon race), and the options are otherwise identical.

If we're not going to send cosmonauts to the Moon we at least need to keep sending lots of robots, our argument was that sending humans is too dangerous and expensive. But especially as a hedge against if the Americans continue their crewed program, we need to ensure that we can get back a haul of Moon rocks via robot before the decade is out, which is pretty doable - if Luna stays fully funded.

While I still don't understand the weird fascination with promoting rural bourgeoisie at the expense of our theoretically socialist state, I'll throw a variant of the leading plan below that just changes the space option while keeping that the same.

[x] Crazycryodude
 
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[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization

Going for the Smallholders option because it helps make the rurals a decent place to live, voting to toss out Dygai because concerns about backlash from not tossing the guy the first chance we get, choosing unmanned because it doesn't cut the Luna programs.
 
The thing is, the RLA-5 will still have all these advantages if we come back to the concept five or ten years from now, if that's when we actually need it. The beauty of it being a straightforward adaptation of an already extant rocket design is that we can straightforwardly adapt it from a rocket design our own future selves will already be using.

And we will go on using the RLA and RLA-3 for a long time, just as the OTL Soviet Union went on using, say, the Proton rocket which serves in a loosely comparable role.

Something like the Saturn V dies if you stop funding the development project, because none of its parts are based on anything being used in any other design. Something like RLA-5 does not.
My largest concern with ending the RLA-5 development was not that we wouldn't have the technical ability to try and recreate it later, but that we wouldn't have the political will to sink the budget into restarting the program.

Everyone who's pointed out that the RLA-5 isn't going to fly anywhere near often is and that most of our missions aren't going to need anything more than a RLA-3 is correct. But the other thing is that those few missions and launches that would be worth using the RLA-5 and it's massive lift capacity for? Those missions can also be done by the RLA-3, if with significantly less capability due to having almost half the payload. 40t to LEO can still put a significantly sized station core into space, can still launch a decent sized probe out into the gas giants, if just not as good as the ones that a RLA-5 could carry.

As it was, the RLA-5 was already being funded and could probably just have coasted to completion on that inertia. Now any attempt to restart work on the RLA-5 is going to have to face the uphill battle of "is it worth spending this budget on a rocket that's only going to be used a handful of times when we can just do a smaller mission with what we have already?"

Between fully expecting the RpT to jump back up to 15 in the years after work on the RLA-3 finishes as we can no longer double dip on existing development teams doing work that applies to both of them (if not even higher due to possibly losing knowledge in the interim period we're not doing work on it and we have to redo R&D we've already done), and the numbers looking like we've been cut down to 50 RpT max with a possibility that we may get back up 60 relatively soon, I don't have high hopes for the "let's return to spending 25% of our space budget on a single rocket" side winning that fight.
 
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My largest concern with ending the RLA-5 development was not that we wouldn't have the technical ability to try and recreate it later, but that we would have the political will to sink the budget into restarting the program.
Fair concerns, though as I brought up in a previous post on the matter, rocket upgrades over time will probably substantially push the mass upwards as well. So it's unclear how much we'll ever need the RLA-5 before we try to change to some kind of reusable rocket system. Still it's true that losing the extra efficiency we had in the combined program is a bit of a shame and surely the launch mass ability could have been used for a few particularly cool missions.
 
[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization (hard stuff first)
--[X]Retire Smelyakov
--[X]Prioritize Unmanned Programs
--[X]Back Small Producers

[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization
 
[X] Plan Lunar Rationalization

I am against supporting the excess in the countryside known as the rural enterprises. It is a sign of a growing disconnect between the local soviets and party organs with the ministry system in Moscow with how they practically gifted positions to lackeys and failsons in Moscow universities against the preferences of local party members. This over-centralization of agricultural production is proven to be horrible to local party members and would only benefit a select crypto-capitalist technocratic elite that would not bear any accountability except for themselves and tangentially their backers in Moscow. The fact that Voz has thoroughly tainted the agricultural sector with his patronage network that allows no accountability from the local party is a feature in his corrupt schemes for the rural proletariat to descend back into feudalism this time with a technocratic-bureaucratic twist. Such actions must be reversed and improve the lives of rural population and their local soviets.

I also would prefer us to go on a more populist route in removing the face of the Moscow evictions and trying to get his grubby hands into Ukraine is too far.
 
The fact Klimenko said so and Voz thought so before being bamboozled by an angry farmer is pretty clear indication it is the case that rural cadres can be harvested to some extent. Like, we are getting the same conclusion from two vastly different PoVs. Obviously we can and should be skeptical of the narration to some extent, but that to me is pretty clear indication they are on to something.

And honestly, why wouldn't they be? The population in the countryside is represented by Party members just as anyone else, and I don't see why pork geared to their electorate would not work whilst pork to urbanites would. We have had tons of projects marked pork located all over the Union, so its not like its not a thing.
"Some extent", yes. But not any significant one, not compared to the effort spent, simply because of the inherent structure of the countryside - the population is spread out and atomized, with every individual unit having little economic power in either consumption or production, limited political interests meaning they aren't really taking part in the favour trading game, lacking numbers to become a voting/cadre base for a noticeable number of party men, every farm focusing on its own local issues meaning they have difficulty organizing enough to put pressure through collective bargaining and so on. Speeding the consolidation processes will help some, but it's not going to resolve all issues, especially not if we back small private producers who by their nature can't form organizations that have significant power on a Union-wide scale.
 
ooooo we stop caring about people because political support and efficiency.
Or rather ineffircient blandness since most enterprise does monocrops. Which we don't need since we already producing too much.
 
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