Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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Nah, even with RR we can afford to skip Infra focus. It's 8 autodice if we take RR and keep treading the water on housing, which still leaves 3 Infra dice before free ones or any additional options - which is what we had this plan, and we still did plenty of things done.
Not to mention we get +2 infra dice effectively since RR is a hydrological project. So our agri deputy minister transfers 2 agri dice into infra ones. So really its only 6 dice to continue funding housing and do RR.
 
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Hm, if us failing the plan puts Balakirev in danger anyway, maybe we don't have much to loose on sending the river reversal to committee.
What? No, the opposite is true, if we are already in a political struggle, as we are likely to be, we do not want to piss against the political wind if we want to keep Balakirev and his much bigger bonus to all dice.
 
We, uh, have a not insignificant chance of having the oil crisis come right this turn and are going into a planning turn setting the course for the next 5 years, having a decapitated ministry with no head, no deputy and Semyonov and Ryzkov locked in a power struggle over it would not exactly be ideal. Especially since Balakirev is the one dude who knows we are heading towards a energy cliff and is the one who can best adress it. Like, I understand throwing it to committee, but I think the consequences of Balakirev getting yeeted out at this point could be pretty disastrous so I really wish that doesn't happen.
 
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What? No, the opposite is true, if we are already in a political struggle, as we are likely to be, we do not want to piss against the political wind if we want to keep Balakirev and his much bigger bonus to all dice.

The thought process is that if Balas position is already bad, then losing him with the comitee isnt that big of a loss cause we can put both the plan failure and river reversal on him as the scape goat.

Just to make sure you have it straight, it's not that we get petroleum, it's that we loose so much of it that the price jumps up by +8.

Yeah thats what i mean, if we are sinking giant amounts of petroleum into river reversals, then that will make the oil shock hit harder, so focusing on building oil processing industries like plastics would be very dangerous.
 
We will get options to prevent that iirc. Basically offshore drilling on previously flooded well heads lol

OK... So we'll have to pay twice (once to flood the area, second time to drill new wells) to get a little less production than we already have (capping wells and re-drilling them in inherently a wasteful process). Well, fine. But can we rebuild our existing oil production while keeping production expanding for the next 5 years or so?

Certainly if we do opt for modified river reversal, I think we really should go for a petrochemical revolution off the back of our plastics crit and do a CI/Services plan next. Plan to spend most of our budget on new production and better technology while packing people into services jobs to ride out the oil crash and our own river reversal...

The thought process is that if Balas position is already bad, then losing him with the comitee isnt that big of a loss cause we can put both the plan failure and river reversal on him as the scape goat.

Exactly. Instead of wasting opportunities trying to hold on to a weak political hand, we roll with the punch.

Yeah thats what i mean, if we are sinking giant amounts of petroleum into river reversals, then that will make the oil shock hit harder, so focusing on building oil processing industries like plastics would be very dangerous.

Cool. The way you put it, I wasn't sure if you'd read it right. I know I occasionally misread price rises since I am still used to the old system.

Though I am not sure that expanding plastic production is so bad, so long as we improve production of oil or improve efficiency of refining at the same time. Plastic isn't made out of the oil fractions that are used as petrol or diesel. So I am more and more thinking that a big petrochemicals push might be wise. Make existing wells and refineries more efficient, drill more, build more plastic factories to use the waste as we produce lots of fuel oils ready for the crisis.

What? No, the opposite is true, if we are already in a political struggle, as we are likely to be, we do not want to piss against the political wind if we want to keep Balakirev and his much bigger bonus to all dice.

We've already had plenty of examples this quest of how higher dice boni are worse than making wrong strategic choices.

Like the way we stuck with Voz for too long.

And I would not be unhappy with a minister who was a pawn of Semynov or Ryzhkov. I'd prefer Semynov putting a Trade Unionist minister in place, especially with the pressure that the oil crisis will put on the ordinary worker, but Ryzhkov is OK.

Also, having someone with better political chops, even if he wasn't great at the rest of the job, could be useful in an oil crisis. Many of the critical rolls during the crisis are sure to be fights in the SupSov.

We, uh, have a not insignificant chance of having the oil crisis come right this turn and are going into plan turning, having a decapitated ministry with no head, no deputy and Semyonov and Ryzkov locked in a power struggle over it would not exactly be ideal. Especially since Balakirev is the one dude who knows we are heading towards a energy cliff and is the one who can best adress it. Like, I understand throwing it to committee, but I think the consequences of Balakirev getting yeeted out at this point could be pretty disastrous so I really wish that doesn't happen.

Political instability right as the crisis hit would be bad, for sure.

On the other hand, I do think that people are seriously over-valuing Balakirev's authorship of that report. Klimenko committed the ministry to nuking the Soviet economy out of the coal and oil crunch. Once an oil crisis actually occurs, even if Balakirev is out, the momentum of the Balakirev report will continue.

And we might end up with someone who can act on the Balakirev report better than Balakirev can. Bala has engineer brain almost as bad as Voz did (albeit he's also more chill politically).

Like, I get the temptation to not risk opening the mystery box. We opened the mystery box during the Libyan crisis and now there's an Algerian genocide going on. But the "safe" option is a staggeringly expensive megaproject. (Though better a staggering expensive megaproject than a staggeringly expensive public health crisis.) And the costs of the river reversal are enough that I suspect that we have the risk of a quick political death if we roll badly in the committee, or a slow political death as we try and make the blasted thing work. Even if we can compensate for all the downsides of the river reversal itself, it will be taking up resources and organizational bandwidth that I would rather have free to deal with the oil crisis in a robust way.

Remember, it being so late in a richer and more developed world means that it is very likely to be FAR worse than the oil crisis of OTL.

And on top of that, if we go to committee there's the chance that we roll well we could get good things.

We have in the past gotten good things from making the right choice after a critfail.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
If we go for the comitee, will Central Asia be angry at Balakirev or will they be angry at the ministry?

How hard will it be to get river reversal out of the comitee once we put it in there, will we get blamed for not doing river reversal as Balas successor or will it be out of our hand?
 
If we go for the comitee, will Central Asia be angry at Balakirev or will they be angry at the ministry?

How hard will it be to get river reversal out of the comitee once we put it in there, will we get blamed for not doing river reversal as Balas successor or will it be out of our hand?
They will be angry at whoever chooses not to go through with the project. That includes the next head even if we manage to scuttle the project for now.
Political instability right as the crisis hit would be bad, for sure.

On the other hand, I do think that people are seriously over-valuing Balakirev's authorship of that report. Klimenko committed the ministry to nuking the Soviet economy out of the coal and oil crunch. Once an oil crisis actually occurs, even if Balakirev is out, the momentum of the Balakirev report will continue.

And we might end up with someone who can act on the Balakirev report better than Balakirev can. Bala has engineer brain almost as bad as Voz did (albeit he's also more chill politically).

Like, I get the temptation to not risk opening the mystery box. We opened the mystery box during the Libyan crisis and now there's an Algerian genocide going on. But the "safe" option is a staggeringly expensive megaproject. (Though better a staggering expensive megaproject than a staggeringly expensive public health crisis.) And the costs of the river reversal are enough that I suspect that we have the risk of a quick political death if we roll badly in the committee, or a slow political death as we try and make the blasted thing work. Even if we can compensate for all the downsides of the river reversal itself, it will be taking up resources and organizational bandwidth that I would rather have free to deal with the oil crisis in a robust way.

Remember, it being so late in a richer and more developed world means that it is very likely to be FAR worse than the oil crisis of OTL.

And on top of that, if we go to committee there's the chance that we roll well we could get good things.

We have in the past gotten good things from making the right choice after a critfail.

Regards,

fasquardon
The late 70s is when countries condemned themselves to lost decades and stagnation, having the economic industry lose the clout to adress the upcoming crisis (because it will require sacrifices and unpopular measures that are beyond just projects, energy efficiency measures won't be popular, and neither will be a intentional slowdown to economic growth) is a hell of a risk to take. Balakirev we know understands the cliff coming ahead of us, he is the one who introduced the issue into Soviet political consciousness. Klimenko managed to make the politicians not immediately act against us and let them internalize some of it, but I doubt even a plurality of them will be so understanding when everything is going up in flames. River Reversal will cause us some problems later on, but it will hardly cause Balakirev to face a political death in the short/medium term. Like, its massively popular and its effect won't be really seen until the next decade in any case (the project is massive and will take a decade to complete).

EDIT: Tbc, this is not be being hard against throwing it into committee, but like, I think people are being a bit dismissive of the risks involved in the MNKh entering a political crisis right as the biggest economic shock of the late 20th Century is happening.
 
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The thought process is that if Balas position is already bad, then losing him with the comitee isnt that big of a loss cause we can put both the plan failure and river reversal on him as the scape goat.
Well, that's a bad thought process, because there's a significant difference in the political situation between the two choices.

We've already had plenty of examples this quest of how higher dice boni are worse than making wrong strategic choices.

Like the way we stuck with Voz for too long.
Voz wasn't bad because of his dice bonus and we weren't even stuck with him for too long in the first place. The corruption got as bad as it did because we picked corruption options often and with gusto, but even with that we still managed to provide significant economic and QoL growth, a good part of it being because Voz was good at administration. Sacrificing our actual job and quite possibly the ministry apparatus to try and prevent a very popular project is not the right strategic choice in this case.
 
I think the "right" choice is to try and bury the project in a committee but isn't river reversal without chorme the most interesting option? I want to see how it works out for us.
 
As a Reminder we made Central Asia into an actually politically important part of the USSR. Central Asia wants River Reversal because they are having issues with water supply. If we did not want to do River Reversal, we shouldn't have built up Central Asia to becoming economically prosperous and therefore politically relevant.

So, if we want to have some retain some kind of control over this mess, just do the Modified River Reversal and hope the damage isn't as bad as we feared.
 
Well, that's a bad thought process, because there's a significant difference in the political situation between the two choices.

Could you elaborate what these significant differences are?

They will be angry at whoever chooses not to go through with the project. That includes the next head even if we manage to scuttle the project for now.

Yeah, but if the next head can point at the comitee which prevents them from doing it and blame bala for it then the blame gets redirected. The problem is if the Comitee can actually block the next head or if they can cut through the obstructions
 
There is also the possibility of a committee that hasn't been mentioned but could theoretically happen if the committee agrees on something. You will be stuck implementing it. This is quite unlikely given the typical committee shenanigans that go on, but it's a theoretical thing that if enough important people push and no one high up opposes, will go through.
 
If there's a way to have our cake and eat it, I am all ears. But my instinct is that trying to buy our way out of this hole by throwing steel, concrete and money at our problems and undermining our fuel situation when an oil shock is immanent is a bad play, and we are better taking the risk on the Comittee.

I see the committee as basically guaranteed political suicide for Balakirev, leading to his replacement with someone that will just be locked into doing RR on their patron's orders anyways. Or failing that the committee coming back and ordering us to do it because all the same pressures forcing Balakirev into this also apply to the committee members as well.

Central Asia isn't going to get any less wealthy or populated going into the future, they will make sure they get their water one way or another. Modern Kazakhstan is facing increasingly critical water stress in OTL 2024, with the much larger population and industrial bases TTL I would not be surprised if the situation today is moved up to somewhere more like the turn of the millennium, and everybody can see it coming. So for as long as delegates from the Central Asian republics get to stand up and make speeches in the SupSov, this is going to come up again and again every 5 years with harsher consequences for refusing each time until it gets forced through.

As for the +8 petro fuels, that is a pretty serious downside to the program, I totally agree. But Balakirev is the best man to deal with that thanks to his chonky CI bonus, like I said I believe those oil fields will be flooded no matter what at some point so we might as well work around it while we have the CI specialist instead of making it the problem of some future PC without the relevant skills and expertise. It's been suggested in Discord that we might be able to restore that -8 petro fuels worth of production by building elevated oil rigs over the oil fields that will be flooded by RR reservoirs, which sucks as a premium in dice/resources to pay for merely keeping existing production but it's better than eating the +8 permanently.
 
They will be angry at whoever chooses not to go through with the project. That includes the next head even if we manage to scuttle the project for now.

Do we actually know that? Or is that your opinion?

River Reversal will cause us some problems later on

Later on? It looks to me like most of the problems with the modified river reversal are in the actual construction. A construction process that seems very likely to coincide with the worst economic crisis yet faced in the quest.

The long term problems are, IMO, the least of our worries.

EDIT: Tbc, this is not be being hard against throwing it into committee, but like, I think people are being a bit dismissive of the risks involved in the MNKh entering a political crisis right as the biggest economic shock of the late 20th Century is happening.

No, really, I get it.

But I think that risk is less.

Also, I mean... There could be some advantage to the ministry to being paralyzed while politicians fight over us in a storm. It would mean that the ministry couldn't be blamed for the crash.

But I don't want to minimize how bad this scenario would be, the infighting, in the unlikely event that the oil crisis did start right while the entire Soviet government was fighting over the MNKh, would mean every department would be slow to react, not just ours.

It would be a bad situation with maybe some small embers of hope.

But still, for things to be this bad we would have to roll poorly in committee, THEN roll poorly on the exact timing of the oil crisis.

Sacrificing our actual job and quite possibly the ministry apparatus to try and prevent a very popular project is not the right strategic choice in this case.

If it weren't for the impending oil crisis and the flooding of the oil fields, I would probably agree.

As a Reminder we made Central Asia into an actually politically important part of the USSR. Central Asia wants River Reversal because they are having issues with water supply. If we did not want to do River Reversal, we shouldn't have built up Central Asia to becoming economically prosperous and therefore politically relevant.

So, if we want to have some retain some kind of control over this mess, just do the Modified River Reversal and hope the damage isn't as bad as we feared.

So... Because we made bad choices, we should continue to make bad choices even though doing so will surely hurt the people we annoy?

People in Central Asia are going to suffer during the oil crisis too. If we can't handle the crisis because we're too busy bringing them the water they want, we could end up losing even more politically.

Keep in mind here, we can't just instantly replace the flooded well heads with offshore rigs. We'll be juggling alot of plates to pull off such a megaproject without pain, and honestly, from the information we have I don't think it's possible to NOT break a few plates during this process.

What we have is a choice of what plates shatter and when, not whether plates shatter. I'd rather take the pain up front.

I think the "right" choice is to try and bury the project in a committee but isn't river reversal without chorme the most interesting option? I want to see how it works out for us.

Well yes. I think you are in the majority here. The megaproject is cool. 40 cubic km being added to Central Asia, most of the water flowing North being replaced by new rain driven by global warming... It all sounds pretty dang neat!

The timing sucks bad tho.

There is also the possibility of a committee that hasn't been mentioned but could theoretically happen if the committee agrees on something. You will be stuck implementing it. This is quite unlikely given the typical committee shenanigans that go on, but it's a theoretical thing that if enough important people push and no one high up opposes, will go through.

Hmm. So the impression I am getting here is the most likely outcome is that the committee argues for ages, delaying river reversal, possibly forever. The next most likely outcome is that the committee agrees on a bad plan, and we have to do it. And that Balakirev losing his political career over this is unlikely, but so is the committee giving us better options.

Or is my hope that this fight is a potential path to proper environmental regulations reasonable?

I see the committee as basically guaranteed political suicide for Balakirev

I disagree. That said...

the committee coming back and ordering us to do it

This does seem to be a considerable risk.

As for the +8 petro fuels, that is a pretty serious downside to the program, I totally agree. But Balakirev is the best man to deal with that thanks to his chonky CI bonus

That is a fair point.

What do you think about doing a services/CI plan and going all in on the petro revolution if we do opt for modified river reversal?

Regards,

fasquardon
 
OK... So we'll have to pay twice (once to flood the area, second time to drill new wells) to get a little less production than we already have (capping wells and re-drilling them in inherently a wasteful process). Well, fine. But can we rebuild our existing oil production while keeping production expanding for the next 5 years or so?

Certainly if we do opt for modified river reversal, I think we really should go for a petrochemical revolution off the back of our plastics crit and do a CI/Services plan next. Plan to spend most of our budget on new production and better technology while packing people into services jobs to ride out the oil crash and our own river reversal...



Exactly. Instead of wasting opportunities trying to hold on to a weak political hand, we roll with the punch.



Cool. The way you put it, I wasn't sure if you'd read it right. I know I occasionally misread price rises since I am still used to the old system.

Though I am not sure that expanding plastic production is so bad, so long as we improve production of oil or improve efficiency of refining at the same time. Plastic isn't made out of the oil fractions that are used as petrol or diesel. So I am more and more thinking that a big petrochemicals push might be wise. Make existing wells and refineries more efficient, drill more, build more plastic factories to use the waste as we produce lots of fuel oils ready for the crisis.



We've already had plenty of examples this quest of how higher dice boni are worse than making wrong strategic choices.

Like the way we stuck with Voz for too long.

And I would not be unhappy with a minister who was a pawn of Semynov or Ryzhkov. I'd prefer Semynov putting a Trade Unionist minister in place, especially with the pressure that the oil crisis will put on the ordinary worker, but Ryzhkov is OK.

Also, having someone with better political chops, even if he wasn't great at the rest of the job, could be useful in an oil crisis. Many of the critical rolls during the crisis are sure to be fights in the SupSov.



Political instability right as the crisis hit would be bad, for sure.

On the other hand, I do think that people are seriously over-valuing Balakirev's authorship of that report. Klimenko committed the ministry to nuking the Soviet economy out of the coal and oil crunch. Once an oil crisis actually occurs, even if Balakirev is out, the momentum of the Balakirev report will continue.

And we might end up with someone who can act on the Balakirev report better than Balakirev can. Bala has engineer brain almost as bad as Voz did (albeit he's also more chill politically).

Like, I get the temptation to not risk opening the mystery box. We opened the mystery box during the Libyan crisis and now there's an Algerian genocide going on. But the "safe" option is a staggeringly expensive megaproject. (Though better a staggering expensive megaproject than a staggeringly expensive public health crisis.) And the costs of the river reversal are enough that I suspect that we have the risk of a quick political death if we roll badly in the committee, or a slow political death as we try and make the blasted thing work. Even if we can compensate for all the downsides of the river reversal itself, it will be taking up resources and organizational bandwidth that I would rather have free to deal with the oil crisis in a robust way.

Remember, it being so late in a richer and more developed world means that it is very likely to be FAR worse than the oil crisis of OTL.

And on top of that, if we go to committee there's the chance that we roll well we could get good things.

We have in the past gotten good things from making the right choice after a critfail.

Regards,

fasquardon
You seem to think that by throwing RR to committee we can actually stop it. You are wrong. At most we throw away Bala for maybe a year or two of delay on it. It will be done no matter what. Central Asia has too much political power to be denied water. The choice is doing it now with a guy who knows what he's doing, or doing it in a few years with zero option to mitigate the damage with someone very inexperienced in charge. There is no realistic world where we somehow don't do River Reversal. It doesn't matter how much you're willing to sacrifice.
 
You seem to think that by throwing RR to committee we can actually stop it.

No, I am figuring that we have decent odds to delayed it until after the oil crisis and that we can maybe get even more stringent environmental controls on effluent being dumped into the rivers if we roll well.

The river reversal itself is much less of a problem than the timing of the river reversal. Would make a fine project for the 80s. It's a sucky project for an oil crisis.

or doing it in a few years with zero option to mitigate the damage with someone very inexperienced in charge.

I am willing to sacrifice Balakirev, but I think that people are greatly exaggerating the likelihood of his being fired over this.

Failing to handle the oil crisis however, could be absolutely dire politically.

It's one thing to piss off a region. It's another thing to be the scapegoat for the whole CMEA.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Is the river reversal a dice project ?
Because if it is, we could take it and proactively ignore it until either the situation or the man in charge of the MNKh change
 
If it weren't for the impending oil crisis and the flooding of the oil fields, I would probably agree.
By 1979, when the price rise from a revised proposal starts hitting, we'll likely already get the hit from the oil shock and start recovering from it. If not, then we'd have enough time to build a buffer and will be one turn away from the next plan where we can take a CI focus. It's honestly not that big of a deal, +8 over 4 years is less than almost any of our other expenses.
 
So... Because we made bad choices, we should continue to make bad choices even though doing so will surely hurt the people we annoy?

People in Central Asia are going to suffer during the oil crisis too. If we can't handle the crisis because we're too busy bringing them the water they want, we could end up losing even more politically.

Keep in mind here, we can't just instantly replace the flooded well heads with offshore rigs. We'll be juggling alot of plates to pull off such a megaproject without pain, and honestly, from the information we have I don't think it's possible to NOT break a few plates during this process.

What we have is a choice of what plates shatter and when, not whether plates shatter. I'd rather take the pain up front.

Focus of my comment was less on the Oil Price perspective and more on the Water Scarcity perspective, the latter issue being something I am sure Central Asia is rather concerned about. Although I do admit that the increase in the cost of Petroleum Fuels is going to not be a fun thing to deal with, to say the least.

Another thing that came to mind is the fact that I do not want to do the gamble regarding River Reversal because while sending it to Committee could end up with a better result, it could also produce a much worse result. Choosing to do it now at least means we can control what kind of infeasible megaproject we are forced to complete. And the Central Asia would still be a politically influential place with Water Issue regardless.

Another thing is that we already have a history of Ministers getting fired because of something happening in Central Asia. So, there is some reason to be cautious considering how the previous incidents went.
 
By 1979, when the price rise from a revised proposal starts hitting, we'll likely already get the hit from the oil shock and start recovering from it. If not, then we'd have enough time to build a buffer and will be one turn away from the next plan where we can take a CI focus. It's honestly not that big of a deal, +8 over 4 years is less than almost any of our other expenses.
It's over five years if I read it right, so +10.
Think about it this way:
- it's 3 infra dice and 500 RpT for 10 years (30 dice and 5000 resources)
- however much dice we need roll back that +8, on top of what we do to fight the crisis

Low hanging fruits will be picked, so I'm napkin-mathing it to be twice as expensive in dice and resources compared to how much it is now, so - about 8 LCI dice @ 180 RpD. For a total of 38 dice and 6440 resources.

So, a) it's a huge project, but overall less than 10% resources/dice of two plans b) countering oil impact will be a a big, but not nearly the biggest part of it. Comparatively, this is like 2 or 3 moon missions in relative effort.
 
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Is the river reversal a dice project ?
Because if it is, we could take it and proactively ignore it until either the situation or the man in charge of the MNKh change

I am guessing doing that really would get Bala not just fired, but tarred and feathered by the SupSov too.

We'd have promised a popular project and then not delivered.

Looking like we will let a whole regions industries die is not a good look.

ACTUALLY letting whole regions and countries wither is even worse.

Like, this is why I am so worried about the oil crisis. We're looking at the difference between hurting politicians feelings, and actually making people's lives miserable, with a narrow window of "maybe-we-can-make-this-work" in between.

+8 over 4 years is less than almost any of our other expenses.

I am expecting that we will have our normal rise in consumption going on (after maybe a bit of a drop due to crash efficiency measures) plus increased pressure on our prices as the CMEA demands more oil from us and the West tries to get our oil (it's not like we could really stop Romania re-exporting our oil, for example).

With so much extra demand falling on our shoulders, my concern is that the river reversal (for both the oil cost and the construction cost diverting resources that could otherwise be used to address the oil crisis) could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Though really it is more of a log than a straw. But I want to stress, not a log that I think we couldn't handle under ordinary circumstances.

By 1979, when the price rise from a revised proposal starts hitting, we'll likely already get the hit from the oil shock and start recovering from it.

That would be nice. Alas, we don't control the timing of the crisis.

I guess we'll see what happens when?

Another thing that came to mind is the fact that I do not want to do the gamble regarding River Reversal because while sending it to Committee could end up with a better result, it could also produce a much worse result. Choosing to do it now at least means we can control what kind of infeasible megaproject we are forced to complete. And the Central Asia would still be a politically influential place with Water Issue regardless.

Yeah, I get that.

Anyway, my sense is that the majority of people are pro-modified river reversal, so we should probably focus on how to make it a success?

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Considering how much this thread is balking from getting our arms twisted to doing RR due to a incredibly poorly timed wrecker dice I imagine it being cranked up even more when our politixal masterstroke (which we definitely dont have a history of screwing up) inevitably backfires will be even more loathed. Better to stick with bala and hope we either modify the planned reversal while it's underway or get projects to help mitigate some of the effects
 
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