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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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Crazycryodude said:
How about doing the armored car trial instead of the new fighter? It's 5 resources cheaper, but mainly I think the air force is relatively well taken care of while our army is entirely lacking any mobile recon and we want to unfuck that real quick.
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EEHHHHH, air force assets take longer to develop and we're not exactly ahead of the curve on them. We might even be slightly behind it, because it's almost 1939 and we don't even have a prototype all-metal fighter.
 
The really great thing would be grabbing all 3, but that means either not finishing the SMG plant or pushing one of the KV Plants down to only 3 Dice, and our armored units really need some bulking up.

Or taking the T-34 trial down to just 1 die, but the T-34's something we really don't want to get a garbage roll on.
 
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Even though fighters take longer to develop I still think the armored car is higher priority. The army just straight up doesn't have scouts right now, we shot or sidelined all the cavalry and the recon vehicle that was supposed to replace them turned into a comedy of errors and lead poisoned engineers. We really need to fill that role ASAP, the air force can make do with more interceptors for now.
 
Crazycryodude said:
Even though fighters take longer to develop I still think the armored car is higher priority. The army just straight up doesn't have scouts right now, we shot or sidelined all the cavalry and the recon vehicle that was supposed to replace them turned into a comedy of errors and lead poisoned engineers. We really need to fill that roll ASAP, the air force can make do with more interceptors for now.
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We shot the cavalry clique, we still almost certainly still have some cavalry regiments. To say nothing of the fact with the preponderance of radios, we have an absolute ton more leeway using aerial reconnaissance.

Our ground scout game is bad that's for sure, but an armored car isn't going to fix it. I'm kinda unsure why the trial is even an option, the Soviets had an armored car they didn't replace from 1936-1945 in the BA-20. I would have assumed since we didn't even have the option for it it was a low enough resource project we didn't need to invest in it.

I would much rather get more planes than a recon car, especially since our planes can reliably communicate with our ground forces. To say nothing that starting armored car development and production is much, much, much faster than developing a whole new fighter and likely having to build a new aircraft plant for it.

Historically, the Soviets didn't heavily practice aerial reconnaissance in WW2, let's completely change that and revolutionize our doctrine's source of military intelligence rather than try to polish a shitty solution until its less bad.
Chimeraguard said:
Ugh. Well I don't like it at all, but yeah, you're probably right. Making the swap.
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Why hello there, do you come here to change your plans often?
 
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Karugus said:
Why hello there, do you come here to change your plans often?
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You kidding? I change my plans like, 3-5 times on average every turn before the moratorium ends.

It's why I've started making variants of the same plan except for This One Thing.

EDIT: Like this.

[ ] Plan Gorky & Cars
Infrastructure 8 Dice (8 idle)
-[ ] Nothing
Heavy Industry 12 Dice
-[ ] Magnitogorsk Barracks, 2 HI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Kuznetsk Basin Coal Mine Expansion(Stage 4), 3 HI Dice (45 Resources)
-[ ] Zlatoust Planned City(Stage 4), 7 HI Dice (105 Resources)
Light and Chemical Industry 6 Dice
-[ ] High Octane Experiments, 1 LCI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Bakelite Production(Army), 1 LCI Dice (25 Resources)
-[ ] Large Scale Synthetic Rubber, 4 LCI Dice (120 Resources)
Agriculture 4 Dice (1 idle)
-[ ] Banana Farming Cooperatives, 3 Agriculture Dice (45 Resources)
Services 4 Dice (3 idle)
-[ ] Nursing Academies, 1 Services Dice (10 Resources)
Military 8 Dice (+4 Free Dice)
-[ ] Trial New Armored Cars, 1 Military Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Trial New Medium Tanks, 2 Military Dice (50 Resources)
-[ ] Leningrad Tank Plant, 4 Military Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Chelyabinsk Tank Plant, 4 Free Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Expand Degtyaryov Arms Plant, 1 Military Dice (15 Resources)
Bureaucracy 2 Dice (2 idle)
-[ ] Nothing

Resources Used: 715
Resources Remaining: 80

[ ] Plan Gorky & Planes
Infrastructure 8 Dice (8 idle)
-[ ] Nothing
Heavy Industry 12 Dice
-[ ] Magnitogorsk Barracks, 2 HI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Kuznetsk Basin Coal Mine Expansion(Stage 4), 3 HI Dice (45 Resources)
-[ ] Zlatoust Planned City(Stage 4), 7 HI Dice (105 Resources)
Light and Chemical Industry 6 Dice
-[ ] High Octane Experiments, 1 LCI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Bakelite Production(Army), 1 LCI Dice (25 Resources)
-[ ] Large Scale Synthetic Rubber, 4 LCI Dice (120 Resources)
Agriculture 4 Dice (1 idle)
-[ ] Banana Farming Cooperatives, 3 Agriculture Dice (45 Resources)
Services 4 Dice (3 idle)
-[ ] Nursing Academies, 1 Services Dice (10 Resources)
Military 8 Dice (+4 Free Dice)
-[ ] Trial New Medium Tanks, 2 Military Dice (50 Resources)
-[ ] Trial New Fighters, 1 Military Dice (25 Resources)
-[ ] Leningrad Tank Plant, 4 Military Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Chelyabinsk Tank Plant, 4 Free Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Expand Degtyaryov Arms Plant, 1 Military Dice (15 Resources)
Bureaucracy 2 Dice (2 idle)
-[ ] Nothing

Resources Used: 720
Resources Remaining: 75

I'm not fond of doing stuff on Trollys until we get some more Power Plants up and I want to build up a stockpile of resources for Gorky next turn, so instead, I'm splitting the base Panzerkampf Plan into one that gets Armored Cars and one that gets Fighters.

Alternatively, if you want Trollys either for their own sake or because further Rail Lines are locked behind them, then here's two variations of the same plan, except with Trollys.

[ ] Plan Trollys & Cars
Infrastructure 8 Dice (3 idle)
-[ ] Create Trolly Lines, 5 Infra Dice (75 Resources)
Heavy Industry 12 Dice
-[ ] Magnitogorsk Barracks, 2 HI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Kuznetsk Basin Coal Mine Expansion(Stage 4), 3 HI Dice (45 Resources)
-[ ] Zlatoust Planned City(Stage 4), 7 HI Dice (105 Resources)
Light and Chemical Industry 6 Dice
-[ ] High Octane Experiments, 1 LCI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Bakelite Production(Army), 1 LCI Dice (25 Resources)
-[ ] Large Scale Synthetic Rubber, 4 LCI Dice (120 Resources)
Agriculture 4 Dice (1 idle)
-[ ] Banana Farming Cooperatives, 3 Agriculture Dice (45 Resources)
Services 4 Dice (3 idle)
-[ ] Nursing Academies, 1 Services Dice (10 Resources)
Military 8 Dice (+4 Free Dice)
-[ ] Trial New Armored Cars, 1 Military Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Trial New Medium Tanks, 2 Military Dice (50 Resources)
-[ ] Leningrad Tank Plant, 4 Military Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Chelyabinsk Tank Plant, 4 Free Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Expand Degtyaryov Arms Plant, 1 Military Dice (15 Resources)
Bureaucracy 2 Dice (2 idle)
-[ ] Nothing

Resources Used: 790
Resources Remaining: 5

[ ] Plan Trollys & Planes
Infrastructure 8 Dice (3 idle)
-[ ] Create Trolly Lines, 5 Infra Dice (75 Resources)
Heavy Industry 12 Dice
-[ ] Magnitogorsk Barracks, 2 HI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Kuznetsk Basin Coal Mine Expansion(Stage 4), 3 HI Dice (45 Resources)
-[ ] Zlatoust Planned City(Stage 4), 7 HI Dice (105 Resources)
Light and Chemical Industry 6 Dice
-[ ] High Octane Experiments, 1 LCI Dice (20 Resources)
-[ ] Bakelite Production(Army), 1 LCI Dice (25 Resources)
-[ ] Large Scale Synthetic Rubber, 4 LCI Dice (120 Resources)
Agriculture 4 Dice (1 idle)
-[ ] Banana Farming Cooperatives, 3 Agriculture Dice (45 Resources)
Services 4 Dice (3 idle)
-[ ] Nursing Academies, 1 Services Dice (10 Resources)
Military 8 Dice (+4 Free Dice)
-[ ] Trial New Medium Tanks, 2 Military Dice (50 Resources)
-[ ] Trial New Fighters, 1 Military Dice (25 Resources)
-[ ] Leningrad Tank Plant, 4 Military Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Chelyabinsk Tank Plant, 4 Free Dice (120 Resources)
-[ ] Expand Degtyaryov Arms Plant, 1 Military Dice (15 Resources)
Bureaucracy 2 Dice (2 idle)
-[ ] Nothing

Resources Used: 795
Resources Remaining: 0
 
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Karugus said:
We shot the cavalry clique, we still almost certainly still have some cavalry regiments. To say nothing of the fact with the preponderance of radios, we have an absolute ton more leeway using aerial reconnaissance.

Our ground scout game is bad that's for sure, but an armored car isn't going to fix it. I'm kinda unsure why the trial is even an option, the Soviets had an armored car they didn't replace from 1936-1945 in the BA-20. I would have assumed since we didn't even have the option for it it was a low enough resource project we didn't need to invest in it.
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Aerial recon requires you to hold the skies, which we can't even remotely count on no matter how good our fighters are for at least the first few years of the war. The absolute best case scenario I'm picturing for the early air war is we don't all get annihilated on the ground and instead manage a bloody stalemate where we can mostly give the Germans a run for their money and grind them down at a rate we can afford but they can't. Holding air superiority firmly enough to do all our recon by air isn't in the cards until the war's already decided.

I'm not sure we actually have any horse cavalry around anymore, the OTL Soviets had almost none at this point in time so us going hard against the cavalry clique could have very well knocked that all the way down to none none. The explicit purpose of the armored car trial is to design a new "cheap and viable scouting asset" so if that doesn't fix our scout problem nothing will, whether or not the concept actually works out is at the mercy of the quality dice but I think we need to try and plug the massive hole in our OOB.
 
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Blackstar mentioned that additional railroad construction projects are locked behind the City Tram projects due to the desires of the majority of Party members. As such, doing the trolleys this turn will ensure that we won't have to wait a full year to be able to increase rail density in the Union.
 
Please note, the above 4 plans of mine operate on a Gorky/Trolly, Planes/Cars scale.

Gorky: Does not get Trollys and instead saves the Resources for a focus on Gorky next turn.
Trollys: Gets the Trolly Network with the intention of Infra dice going on Railroads next turn. Trolly demand electricity, so this probably switches the HI focus from Gorky to Power Production Plants.

Planes: Does New Fighter Trials for the next generation of aircraft and keeping a lead on the historical.
Cars: Does New Armored Car Trial to get Armored Cars so our ground forces have reliable mechanized recon assets.

For choices of:
[ ] Plan Gorky & Cars
[ ] Plan Gorky & Planes
[ ] Plan Trollys & Cars
[ ] Plan Trollys & Planes

Gorky used to be called Panzerkampf when I first drew up the plan, but that was back when the main focus on discussion would have been in getting both KV Plants and two dice on T-34 Trials.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
Aerial recon requires you to hold the skies, which we can't even remotely count on no matter how good our fighters are for at least the first few years of the war. The absolute best case scenario I'm picturing for the early air war is we don't all get annihilated on the ground and instead manage a bloody stalemate where we can mostly give the Germans a run for their money and grind them down at a rate we can afford but they can't. Holding air superiority firmly enough to do all our recon by air isn't in the cards until the war's already decided.

I'm not sure we actually have any horse cavalry around anymore, the OTL Soviets had almost none at this point in time so us going hard against the cavalry clique could have very well knocked that all the way down to none none. The explicit purpose of the armored car trial is to design a new "cheap and viable scouting asset" so if that doesn't fix our scout problem nothing will, whether or not the concept actually works out is at the mercy of the quality dice but I think we need to try and plug the massive hole in our OOB.
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We're certainly not going to contest the skies if we're siphoning resources for a new fighter for a ground recon platform. The Luftwaffe even on the best of days isn't going to be everywhere at every-time. Any reconnaissance flight will have the attackers advantage in that we're choosing where to send our planes, its up to the Germans to know where exactly we intend on sending them.

We're going to be re-purposing existing fighter craft for recon. If we can't cover a two-fighter element with it's parent formation we're not even in contested skies anymore, that would be German supremacy.

We've got early aluminum, we've got bakelite, we've got fantastically better aircraft engines, we've got radios in all our planes and an emphasis on well trained personnel. Why are we not playing to our strengths here? What's the point if you insist that despite the fact the aviation arm has seen vast improvements compared to OTL it can't support the ground with recon flights? Why would we throw good money after bad rather than emphasize what we know will be competitive and useful?

The ground reconnaissance niche just does not exist the same way the generals think it does, and I don't want to spend the same amount of money on whats' probably a half decade old BA-20 than we could spend on something to outperform a Bf-109. The solution to the problem you're insistent on is the approach you are railing against. Where do you see a high quality armored car going? Because I sure as hell can't see it going as far as a high quality fighter likely could.

The OTL Soviets survived without so much our boys are going to take for granted and the hill to die on is an armored car?
 
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Chimeraguard said:
The really great thing would be grabbing all 3, but that means either not finishing the SMG plant or pushing one of the KV Plants down to only 3 Dice, and our armored units really need some bulking up.

Or taking the T-34 trial down to just 1 die, but the T-34's something we really don't want to get a garbage roll on.
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If we get all the KV plants up and running, screwing up T-34 might result in military going "KV is it" and just ask for more of them.
And, really, what I don't like about new medium tank option is that the winner is more or less assured to use Christie suspension, and that has many drawbacks. Can that trial wait a turn until we get KV factories up, to see if that would affect the medium tank trial?

By the way, scout car trial has also a secondary focus of getting better observation tools for armour. Would be nice to get for future use in tanks.
 
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Dwergar said:
If we get all the KV plants up and running, screwing up T-34 might result in military going "KV is it" and just ask for more of them.
And, really, what I don't like about new medium tank option is that the winner is more or less assured to use Christie suspension, and that has many drawbacks. Can that trial wait a turn until we get KV factories up, to see if that would affect the medium tank trial
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The best way to get flaws with the initial design fixed is to get the design trial finished as early as possible, so that people can see the problems involved with the original and work to correct them.

Waiting around for another turn won't help with that.
 
Crazycryodude said:
I'm not sure we actually have any horse cavalry around anymore, the OTL Soviets had almost none at this point
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Partly true. Yes, USSR had only ~80k cavalrymen in service at the start of the GPW (x3 Corps = x9 Division+Support, x7 Division, x4 Mountain Cav. Division). But by the end of 1941, around 80 cavalry divisions were mobilised and cavalry played a key role in winter offensives in '41-'42.

Counterpoint to my counterpoint, though: the TOA for a cavalry division was slashed from 9k men to 3k in December 1941, while removing most of the heavy weaponry that the cavalry had, relegating them to scout duty.

That said, without light tanks armored cars become significanly more important to scout, combat German armored cars and fight in cities or bad terrain where KV/T-34 are too unwieldy and vulnerable to infantry anti-tank weapons like Panzerfausts and PWM grenades
 
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Starting to lean on being in favor of Trollys actually. This big military buildup is going to eat through our Aluminum surplus extremely quickly, so getting another source of it is important.

And that means power generation, and that means Trollys becomes more viable if we were going to do Power Generation soon anyway.

On the other hand, this means sparing the resources for Gorky becomes... unlikely. Which is Ugh.
 
Chimeraguard said:
Starting to lean on being in favor of Trollys actually. This big military buildup is going to eat through our Aluminum surplus extremely quickly, so getting another source of it is important.

And that means power generation, and that means Trollys becomes more viable if we were going to do Power Generation soon anyway.

On the other hand, this means sparing the resources for Gorky becomes... unlikely. Which is Ugh.
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Doesn't tungsten production help capital goods anyways? I think Gorky might be able to wait
 
We should also try to get enough PI to get Transfer Personel next turn, it sounds like we kinda gonna need it.
 
Okay, I believe the Moratorium's over.

[ ] Plan Gorky & Cars
[ ] Plan Gorky & Planes
[X] Plan Trollys & Cars
[X] Plan Trollys & Planes

My current thought process leans on focusing on grabbing tracks and power generation next turn over Gorky, and I am currently seesawing on cars vs planes.

I have the Gorky plans in this post but unselected so that I can second-guess myself and possibly vote for them to, depending on my opinion when I wake up. And to hopefully encourage more discussion on which we should actually go for.

Right now though, it's bedtime.
 
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