There is no such WoG that I'm aware of, and I will acknowledge that I'm biased on this topic.

That being said, you're giving Bahamut the benefit of the doubt largely drawn from DnD lore that doesn't fully apply here, and not his actions in this quest which most certainly do.

We've interacted with him ONCE in quest that I know of through his priest. Who stated that if Dany had refused his greatest enemy he would have acted next. There is nothing I've seen WoG or IC that says he could have acted first. As for him being useless Snake god started as a belt that took two stat points to use, and now look at him. Saying that because Bahamut wasn't strong enough to hijack the direct connection Tiamat has to us as we're part of her bloodline that he is useless is disingenuous at best.

In all honestly this argument isn't remotely worth the anger involved, or the assumptions. Insanely we had people that threatened to leave the quest if we had anything to do with Bahamut if I remember right. That isn't a problem anymore thankfully.

Despite talking with his priest we know jack shit about Bahamut in this setting. All I know is that in canon he isn't a paladin good=dumb god. I know DP HATES the idea of Good=dumb so I think people need to look at this with a blank slate. In all honestly I'd just like some straight answers from DP, and if that means Bahamut stops being a thing in quest I'm fine with that.
 
Can we please drop the Bahamut crap? In all honesty it is an argument that has been done to fucking death and it always ends the same so can we please skip to that part and go back to the relevant matter of the fucking god of flames and how he can help us wreck Tiamat's shit?
 
Can we please drop the Bahamut crap? In all honesty it is an argument that has been done to fucking death and it always ends the same so can we please skip to that part and go back to the relevant matter of the fucking god of flames and how he can help us wreck Tiamat's shit?
Agreed, this is an argument that always ends the same, and it's one I'm sick and tired of.
 
I think we're all perpetually sick and tired of this discussion, except literally every single person who tried to bring it back up again. They know how people are going to react by now. Rehash their old answers, then fail to be convinced by their examples that have no basis in the context of this quest thus far.
 
Speaking of changing subjects, anybody with any ideas of where the whole Living Weapons thing is going to go, or how about the Symbiote?
 
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We already started with the daggers.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

A Strange Study Eighth Day of the Tenth Month 293 AC Horio of Tyrosh was not a flesh-smith, nor was he any sort of artificer, his last project completed more by dint of his affinity with the sea than than any skill for enchantment. Fortunately, however, he was not was not merely one mage...

But we haven't discussed if it's worth going further into and we haven't done any work into fleshing the idea out. It seems like it has potential and is being forgotten about.
 
I think that's still unresearched, IIRC.
We've finished the initial entry in that tech-tree, which was to reverse-engineer Feeder so we could discover the life cycle of living equipment.

I would say the next tiers would be as follows:

Tier 1 = Basic Living Equipment Lifecycle, Researcher: no specialty, Low progress (5-7?)
Tier 2 = Living Equipment Biology, Researcher: no specialty (has Knowledge: Nature or Arcana), Low progress (5-7?)
Tier 3 = Basic Living Equipment (SRD Equipment equivalency, self repair, druidic/non-metal class compatibility), Researcher: Fleshcrafter, Low-Medium progress (8-10?)
Tier 4 = Advanced Living Equipment (as previous and Abilities w/Flesh Forge pricing rules), Researcher: Fleshcrafter, Low-Medium progress (8-10?)
Tier 5 = Exotic Living Equipment (as previous, Can have Enhancement Bonus, can have Enchantments [after-market, so only after creation]), Researcher: Fleshsmith + Crafter, Medium progress (11-15?)
Tier 6 = Symbiote (Capstone, mechanics hashed in discussion with DM), Researcher Fleshsmith + Crafter, High Progress (16-20?)

Combined Total: 53-69? Progress

Edit: I'm aware Wizards has mechanics out for Symbiotes, but well, Balance Not Guaranteed™.
 
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We already started with the daggers.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

A Strange Study Eighth Day of the Tenth Month 293 AC Horio of Tyrosh was not a flesh-smith, nor was he any sort of artificer, his last project completed more by dint of his affinity with the sea than than any skill for enchantment. Fortunately, however, he was not was not merely one mage...

But we haven't discussed if it's worth going further into and we haven't done any work into fleshing the idea out. It seems like it has potential and is being forgotten about.
We've finished the initial entry in that tech-tree, which was to reverse-engineer Feeder so we could discover the life cycle of living equipment.

I would say the next tiers would be as follows:

Tier 1 = Basic Living Equipment Lifecycle, Researcher: no specialty, Low progress (5-7?)
Tier 2 = Living Equipment Biology, Researcher: no specialty (has Knowledge: Nature or Arcana), Low progress (5-7?)
Tier 3 = Basic Living Equipment (SRD Equipment equivalency, self repair, druidic/non-metal class compatibility), Researcher: Fleshcrafter, Low-Medium progress (8-10?)
Tier 4 = Advanced Living Equipment (as previous and Abilities w/Flesh Forge pricing rules), Researcher: Fleshcrafter, Low-Medium progress (8-10?)
Tier 5 = Exotic Living Equipment (as previous, Can have Enhancement Bonus, can have Enchantments [after-market, so only after creation]), Researcher: Fleshsmith + Crafter, Medium progress (11-15?)
Tier 6 = Symbiote (Capstone, mechanics hashed in discussion with DM), Researcher Fleshsmith + Crafter, High Progress (16-20?)

Combined Total: 53-69? Progress

Edit: I'm aware Wizards has mechanics out for Symbiotes, but well, Balance Not Guaranteed™.
Keep in mind, we still need this to be done before going further into "living equipment"-matters, as per earlier DPs ruling:
[] Spell-Wrought Daggers: Feeder is indeed a dragon... of sorts at least. By drawing on that ancient legacy, one can not only create more of his kind but also grant some small measure of sorcery to those who possess none.
-[] Create the templated Dagger-wyrms with lvl 1 Sorcerer casting. (Progress 8, Cost ??)
And @Crake, please dont go about giving numbers like that, even as a guess.
That will either predispose DP to give some result, or get someone to think those would be a true estimation, whereas DP agreed to give us bigger and harder-to-research numbers, especially on projects as untouched as this.
It can easily end up as ~150-200 Progress of a research for the whole line.
Would feel more worthwhile, if nothing else.

We've interacted with him ONCE in quest that I know of through his priest. Who stated that if Dany had refused his greatest enemy he would have acted next. There is nothing I've seen WoG or IC that says he could have acted first. As for him being useless Snake god started as a belt that took two stat points to use, and now look at him. Saying that because Bahamut wasn't strong enough to hijack the direct connection Tiamat has to us as we're part of her bloodline that he is useless is disingenuous at best.

In all honestly this argument isn't remotely worth the anger involved, or the assumptions. Insanely we had people that threatened to leave the quest if we had anything to do with Bahamut if I remember right. That isn't a problem anymore thankfully.

Despite talking with his priest we know jack shit about Bahamut in this setting. All I know is that in canon he isn't a paladin good=dumb god. I know DP HATES the idea of Good=dumb so I think people need to look at this with a blank slate. In all honestly I'd just like some straight answers from DP, and if that means Bahamut stops being a thing in quest I'm fine with that.
@lancelot, here are the two WoGs given to us on the matter of Bahamut, the ones that make it immediately not worth even trying to interact with him for the most of the theead:
I'm going to say this bluntly to save on the salt, Bahamut would probably be one of the hardest gods to get on board and require the most sacrifices from you guys. I say this because Viserys has a good knowledge religions and knows something of his character and tenets.
and here's a quote by Azel, QM at the time:
Just one little comment on the Bahamut matter.

You guys can't stomach Lucan. Do you honestly think that Bahamut who is ten times as holy and a thousand times as sure of himself will be better?
Yes, we have some preconceived notions about him.
No, even keeping an open mind isn't worth it in light of what we do know of Bahamut.

In this particular setting, this particular version of Bahamut isn't going to work with us, as we directly defy most of his core tenets, by ourselves, and our whole empire, too.

So, we generally don't talk/think/care about him. If we ever do meet him (unlikely, as he never contacted us before), we'll go from there.
 
Canon Omake: The Spice of Magic Part III
The Spice of Magic Part III
Fourteenth Day of the Eleventh Month 293 AC
<<<Previous Next>>>

Narrow Sea, Stepstones, approaching the harbor of Sorcerer's Deep

Baelon stood proudly at the bow of his ship, peering through a Far-eye that had been granted some aspect of visual enhancement by Airborn enchanters. The sights further ahead were monumentally terrifying and exhilarating all at once, for ahead of the fleet was a structure... no, a tree, a tower of bone white, crowned by blazing leaves of red. The single tallest thing that Baelon had ever gazed upon in his entire life, and he had seen the grandest cities, one of which would swallow up smaller ones several times over and have room for more inhabitants.

A flutter of wind blew across the top all at once and up rose a dragon of living moss and wood, churning earth and solid stone, the shape of the foliage across its vast body mimicking hundreds of bristling scales. Then it disappeared, sharp horns sprouting from its head and swept backward, and they were flying toward the other side of the island in moments. Shortly followed a swarm of shapes, a flash of red, then white and blue and finally green. What are those? Baelon wondered. They glinted ever so peculiarly.

They were soon blocked from further observation by a cloud of birds disturbed from their rest upon the eaves of the Great Tree on the Isle of Sorcerers, no doubt leaving feathers that would go on to grace many a hat or adorn fine garments.

The island had completely changed, more times than Baelon could honestly count in the past couple of years since King Viserys had forged it into his jewel amidst the waves. Stand after stand after stand of trees sprouted where once there had been barren rock without a hint of green, one might find rare woods from across the world here, bothered naught by distance from their place of origin and watered by gentle rains. Mist rose from numerous waterfalls which fell from the greater heights above, furthering the air of mystery and wonder.

Stoneways and accompanying verdant green hillsides, lying in neat rows, mountainous terrain cut into productive farmland through stone-shaping sorcery, the same sorcery which linked the island to the mainland via a series of titanic bridges, battered by waves yet undaunted, such was the magnitude of their construction.

And the ships! Ships everywhere, sails on the horizon, to either side, traffic funneling in and out of the harbor ahead with frantic energy. Millions in coin and goods passing through these lands every month, more wealth each day than the last. Men could prospect amid hills of gold for a lifetime and die of exhaustion before they might match such fortunes.

And of the men who lived there, fortune indeed was in evidence, for each had a roof of stone above their head, masterfully crafted furniture of fine timbers, well-stocked pantries and warmed by a blazing hearth, gorgeous views through crystalline and clear windows fit to make a craftsman tear their hair out of their own heads, and the streets were clean and industrious, wide boulevards and roads, careful city-planning making of it an incredibly organized chaos. Inwardly, Baelon wondered what new expansions he would see as he walked through the streets of Sorcerer's Deep, what buildings would be there that had not been present before, what uncanny sights he would stumble upon?

One might walk from one end of the city to the next each and every day and see something new, it was said, through the gardens that plant spirits tended, amid the buildings with their pleasant top-level pathways and covered with botany, each flowering vine adorning the side of a building almost tasteful in its arrangement, the intent of the lightest touch of magic upon the most inconsequential part of the city almost uncanny if it weren't so idyllic.

And married to that natural beauty was a people who lived by the commonality that they were all driven from distant lands to seek safety, wealth or their own fate, whatever it may be that brought them together, they would all agree in the end that if you grew bored while in that City of Growing Wonders, you were tired of life itself.

"I will live among that splendor, a Prince among Princes," Baelon vowed, slipping away his seeing-device. "It is my destiny."

And each moment the intrepid Prince did move with a frantic energy about him, not merely chasing the next great score, but dreaming grand dreams indeed, dreams of wealth secondary, for in his mind the respect hard earned from delving into the far-off places of the world which other men dared not venture, returning triumphant where others had died, was the sweetest treasure of all.

Some had called it an addiction, even folly.

Baelon called it a challenge he was set forth upon the world to meet.

***​

The 'embassy', if it could be named such, for it did not recall the stately abodes of grand artistry he had seen before which the Stoneborn and Air-Driven had set upon the Capital, nor even the buildings put aside for foreign entities in advance of what had once been the beating heart of the city, that which is constantly pushed back by newer districts where trade was flourishing. Business was booming all over, of course, but Baelon saw that same energy among new immigrants there that he himself possessed, though he did not mean to remain overlong.

The building was built of strange geometries, not quite alike with that of the Temple of the Great Serpent, but deliberately open to the air and sky, allowing in some of the elements and with standing stones carved with alien iconography that would send shivers up the spines of lesser men, as indeed its sole inhabitant might. The twin heads of the great mage-lord before him watched with uncanny coordination, and one might stop speaking just as swiftly as the other began, two as one acting in perfect sync.

"What bargain offered?" They asked directly and succinct, contrary to his initial impression the thought-voice was not sibilant but of perfectly neutral diction, almost too ordinary that one might sooner believe them to be their own errant thoughts, were they not guided by an unmistakably cold and focused great intelligence.

"One with which both our peoples might mutually prosper."

"Upon which scale measured?" Eyes unblinking, the albino serpent-being weighed a black rod in one hand, though the gesture was anything but unconscious. This was a powerful sorcerer lord who had crossed an ocean, distance not their greatest concern, no, but time, Baelon thought, time and the welfare of their people.

A thousand calculations flew through Baelon's head each moment, but he never lost track of his courteous smile for even a single one. He swiftly searched for an appropriate answer and arrived at an acceptable one heartbeats later. "One by which even King Viserys would weight his, in gold and treasures, in word and deed. Look merely to the trades I have made in Astral Currents, to my company's publicly traded stock, it will be apparent to all that word is true, and you will know I have always delivered promptly and within the bounds of each agreement brokered thus."

"Fairly said," the voice replied, four red eyes boring into his own before their head performed an odd dip, "I shall do so." They meant it as a dismissal, Baelon realized a moment later, and he bowed quickly.

Though he couldn't help but ask... "When shall we meet again?"

"I will come to you," the other head replied, craning its long neck to gaze back at him even as the other kept its gaze forward, the strange being sweeping away as if on some urgent business. Perhaps it was, who could say what drove on sorcerers and wizards, much less walking, talking snakes? "Do not go far," the other head added, before turning back swiftly, sweeping around to look at his manservant, who bore the scrutiny with grace.

"Of course," he called, clearing his throat the moment he believed them to be departed.

"Did it go well, Young Lord?" His companion asked, offering him a wine-skin. Baelon took a long drink, noting it had been filled with lemon-water rather than something stronger. He eyed his old friend with a put-upon expression, somewhat amused by the choice and the question.

"As well as could be expected. I would not say he is untrusting... say on rather that he looks for the truth as the world presents it, not as silver tongues might wish to present facts in the most pleasing of ways." He did not take offense to it as some might. In fact, he would have found it profoundly more disconcerting if the mage had taken the time to divine the truth ahead of time as some might have, to display their power and knowledge, and merely played through the conversation as a matter of formality.

Whatever you could say of the mage who had left, they did not believe in wasting their time with tiresome games such as that, nor did they apparently believe in wasting spells or rituals for something which might be easily confirmed with one's own eyes.

"Then you find your pending negotiations with them to be promising?" Agreppo asked, curious.

"Gods willing. Let us make our other arrangements in the interim," Baelon answered, eyes sharp as he considered the negotiations ahead, already adding and subtracting sums in his mind's eye. "We have much to do and little time to do it in."

Let none say he could not follow a worthy example set before him.
 
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And @Crake, please dont go about giving numbers like that, even as a guess.
That will either predispose DP to give some result, or get someone to think those would be a true estimation, whereas DP agreed to give us bigger and harder-to-research numbers, especially on projects as untouched as this.
It can easily end up as ~150-200 Progress of a research for the whole line.
Would feel more worthwhile, if nothing else.
Long hair, don't care.

I know you organize the list and stuff, but at the end of the day it's just a list. Some people could add to your stress by demanding research be pressed even if it's an unreasonable demand upon our limited resources at any one time, but I'm not one of them and never have been, and I spend inordinate amounts of time preparing the sheets leading up to each turn vote myself.

So chill.
 
[X] Crake

Okay, @Crake I think in the very long term Burny's solution might actually work better than you think.
Once he has power over all light and is equal to the Void, he could start sowing the seeds for a better world after a final battle.

Invent, or reuse, a myth of a Dagor Dagorath, a Ragnarok, however you call it that decides the fate of the world, once he thinks he might be strong enough to win it. And after that a rebuilding of the world without the Void.

That would even work in his Zoroastrian RL-equivalent, where the cycles of the world and the fight between good and evil will eventually come to an end, with good winning and a reward for good people and so on. (If Wikipedia doesn't lie to me)

This is still not the optimal outcome, since it requires a near-eternity of stalemate followed by the near-total destruction of the world to rebuild from. But it is certainly better than eternal martyrdom that you were imagining.
 
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[X] Crake

Okay, @Crake I think in the very long term Burny's solution might actually work better in the very long run than you think.
Once he has power over all light and is equal to the Void, he could start sowing the seeds for a better world after a final battle.

Invent, or reuse, a myth of a Dagor Dagorath, a Ragnarok, however you call it that decides the fate of the world, once he thinks he might be strong enough to win it. And after that a rebuilding of the world without the Void.

That would even work in his Zoroastrian RL-equivalent, where the cycles of the world and the fight between good and evil will eventually come to an end, with good winning and a reward for good people and so on. (If Wikipedia doesn't lie to me)

This is still not the optimal outcome, since it requires a near-eternity of stalemate followed by the near-total destruction of the world to rebuild from. But it is certainly better than eternal martyrdom that you were imagining.
My inner-cynic refuses to imagine the setting changing in a positive manner if we're not the architects of it.
 
Long hair, don't care.

I know you organize the list and stuff, but at the end of the day it's just a list. Some people could add to your stress by demanding research be pressed even if it's an unreasonable demand upon our limited resources at any one time, but I'm not one of them and never have been, and I spend inordinate amounts of time preparing the sheets leading up to each turn vote myself.

So chill.
I dont have a problem with you writing up RAs like that -
I welcome it, in fact.

The problem I have expressed, is that you added numbers.
You know it will influence DPs decision if i added RAs with them on the list and asked him to evaluate whether those are right or wrong.
And that's why I asked not to assume numbers. Nothing more than that.

I'm Russian, I'm always chill.
:tongue:
My inner-cynic refuses to imagine the setting changing in a positive manner if we're not the architects of it.
Big True.
 
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My inner-cynic refuses to imagine the setting changing in a positive manner if we're not the architects of it.
Can't argue with that.
Still, I see little reason for him not to try it, except cowardice that he might loose the final battle regardless of eternal preparation.

The bigger problem is that, constrained by his divine nature in a solid stalemate, it will take ages for him to spread the idea and make it part of his religion before there is even a chance it can happen.
So countless cycles of failure and suffering before that way out becomes an option.
 
Great work as always @Crake. It's interesting how Baelon's IC notion of 'always finding something new in SD' is mirrored OOC for us in the narrative. The city has been described hundreds of times in updates, interludes and omakes and yet each one makes for a unique read that reflects as much the observer as the city. It really does feel like a place of wonder, but not like the mysteries of the ancient world keeping their secrets, but living and ever changing.
 
Great work as always @Crake. It's interesting how Baelon's IC notion of 'always finding something new in SD' is mirrored OOC for us in the narrative. The city has been described hundreds of times in updates, interludes and omakes and yet each one makes for a unique read that reflects as much the observer as the city. It really does feel like a place of wonder, but not like the mysteries of the ancient world keeping their secrets, but living and ever changing.
Consider Asshai, ever inscrutable and unchanging.

Then consider Sorcerer's Deep, open and caring and sharing everything it possibly can, to magic itself and knowledge and lore recorded from across the world, copied over and over again so it might not be lost and open to those with the curiosity and will to read it.
 
Yes, we have some preconceived notions about him.
No, even keeping an open mind isn't worth it in light of what we do know of Bahamut.

Is this before of after Lucan went from psychotic fanatic sending our great great grandwhatever angel assassin after us, to a sane reasonable man with a sharp mind, and strength of will that had little to nothing to do with the angel?

Lucan is the perfect example we didn't know jack shit about him, then we talked to him and found out we were wrong about damn near everything. Also as DP can AND HAS changed his mind on a number of things. Lucan again being a prime example. Which is why I'd like to know what Bahamut is really like now that Azel isn't threatening to throw himself off a figurative building if we work with Bahamut.

Like Lucan I wouldn't be surprised if Bahamut is no longer the two dimensional 'good is dumb' character he seemed to have started as.
 
Is this before of after Lucan went from psychotic fanatic sending our great great grandwhatever angel assassin after us, to a sane reasonable man with a sharp mind, and strength of will that had little to nothing to do with the angel?

Lucan is the perfect example we didn't know jack shit about him, then we talked to him and found out we were wrong about damn near everything. Also as DP can AND HAS changed his mind on a number of things. Lucan again being a prime example. Which is why I'd like to know what Bahamut is really like now that Azel isn't threatening to throw himself off a figurative building if we work with Bahamut.

Like Lucan I wouldn't be surprised if Bahamut is no longer the two dimensional 'good is dumb' character he seemed to have started as.
After.
Lucan, for all that we were wrong thinking him a mindless fanatic... is still a fanatic.

There is a damn good reason why most posters think he'd have to die sooner or later - there is just that much irreconcilable notions about how things should run between us.

Him and bahamut aren't Dumb Good, no.
They are "Self-Righteous"-Good, and "Think Things Should Go A Certain Way"-Good.

You are also acting like an asshole towards Azel, whether he's here or not, by saying stuff like this
now that Azel isn't threatening to throw himself off a figurative building if we work with Bahamut.
please cease.

He acted like a QM when giving that statement I quoted, you have to deal with it being a thing in this quest.
 
Is this before of after Lucan went from psychotic fanatic sending our great great grandwhatever angel assassin after us, to a sane reasonable man with a sharp mind, and strength of will that had little to nothing to do with the angel?

Lucan is the perfect example we didn't know jack shit about him, then we talked to him and found out we were wrong about damn near everything. Also as DP can AND HAS changed his mind on a number of things. Lucan again being a prime example. Which is why I'd like to know what Bahamut is really like now that Azel isn't threatening to throw himself off a figurative building if we work with Bahamut.

Like Lucan I wouldn't be surprised if Bahamut is no longer the two dimensional 'good is dumb' character he seemed to have started as.

Bahamut was never good is dumb, but he is a god of dragons, that makes hims proud, inflexible and fundamentally paternalistic. Accommodating him would by no stretch of the imagination be easy and I say this because Viserys had good knowledge religion and he should be able to know this IC.
 
Bahamut was never good is dumb, but he is a god of dragons, that makes hims proud, inflexible and fundamentally paternalistic. Accommodating him would by no stretch of the imagination be easy and I say this because Viserys had good knowledge religion and he should be able to know this IC.

He is a dragon god without dragons that changes the entire ball game. He also knows we don't need him, and we're the solution to his not having dragons problem. Snake wasn't simple, easy, or fast. But we put the time in and got a great deal out of it.

please cease.

He acted like a QM when giving that statement I quoted, you have to deal with it being a thing in this quest.

Did he threaten to leave the quest if we voted in a certain way? If he didn't then I'm wrong and I'm sorry. If he did I made a statement of fact and I'm not remotely sorry about that. I didn't state my opinions on that kind of blackmail, for lack of a better word. If I do you could call me an asshole then.

That doesn't stop us from making the offer, unlike Lucan if he has other options besides us it's waiting for a 1 in a billion miracle to happen. Nothing is stopping us from making the offer, and if he refuses then we wish him luck.
 
He is a dragon god without dragons that changes the entire ball game. He also knows we don't need him, and we're the solution to his not having dragons problem. Snake wasn't simple, easy, or fast. But we put the time in and got a great deal out of it.

A note here, unlike gods like R'hllor or the seven Bahamut like Tiamat is a primordial being, he does not derive his power from worship, though it certainly helps, so he would not be in as dire straights as say Yss when you found him or he Storm God.
 
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