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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Crake said:
I have been the first to point out besides DP that the picture he paints is NOT a pretty one for the side of Light. In some ways it is getting the worse end of the deal.
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Fair, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

My read of the thread after the chapter was that people were warming up to him really quickly since he managed to come off more like Viserys than Asmodeus even though the latter makes for a better comparison (in my opinion anyway). I just wanted to chime in on that point.

... as an aside, Planetos is pretty fucked isn't it? Not just from the horrible threats to existence, but also that all the people who seemed to be interested in saving are ambitious hyper conquerors.

Our line up for the last day of summer is pretty bleak from the perspective of someone who doesn't want to be a slave/imperial citizen/fuel for Asmodeus' vanity project.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Yes it is, I'm not going to claim that what the void would do to people is better than what he would. I just don't think immediately jumping for the "not as bad as being tortured out of existence" back up plan is a good idea.

Every bit of material effort put toward his plan is another step closer to it being the next most viable one. He may be a major god worshiped across a continent, but he's not insurmountable or irreplaceable. Fighting with him is stupid, but letting him be the big back up plan is irresponsible if we can manage something better.


Then I guess I was reading too much into how that was phrased.

I do still think it's worth talking about in this context though; if only to avoid letting a single (though important) positive interaction bias us enough to forget what else he'll do to reality while saving it.

[X] Crake
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I get you, but I don't argue with a upper-tier deity on this point simply because he could not whole heartedly believe our position to be empirically correct.

I could wax poetic for @DragonParadox in a monologue about how this false equivalence he compared our freeing of slaves by sinking coin into the same systematic slavery is not dissimilar from Asmodeus' justification that there isn't any difference between raw soul fire and living and breathing humans currently happy and untroubled by demons or devils or even angels and living a care free existence, because from his point of view his enemies will not stop from reaching out to pluck that little morsel for themselves, and anything not going into his war machine to grind down more souls to gain infinitesimal and from our non-alien perspective utterly pointless ground against Chaos is pointless.

R'hllor said it himself, he's not a monster, so we know he doesn't agree with Asmodeus, but he doesn't wholly believe that people can be left free to have a choice. He thinks either their soul-deep sense of duty will compel them to serve us as it did with the Devils and Angels we recruited, or others will exploit people to their own selfish ends, so in his mind, being the magnanimous and selfless God that he is, at least he is trying to subsume everything that is not Other so that they have a better Master and their lives are only extinguished for the ultimate benefit and well-being of their fellows, preferably willingly.

His rhetoric from Viserys' perspective is weak, but only in the context of belief that freedom should be protected and that existence is pointless if entirely predetermined not just at minor points, but all major aspects of life and death. R'hllor doesn't agree. Convincing him costs us time and frustration trying to change someone who is yet to be convinced. We can revisit this when we have proof that we're not full of horseshit and our methods work.
 
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R'hollor becoming the overgod should be Plan Z or something like that. We have other, better options, including the Imperial Deity and simply finding a different one of our collection of gods to make overgod.
 
Abhishek M said:
Even R'hllor doesnt. That's the only reason were a little more compfortable dealing with him.
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R'hllor casts himself as the Martyr God specifically because the existence he is depicting is literally a personal Hell for him. Neverending suffering, on and on and on and on the Wheel would turn, forevermore.

It doesn't get any worse than embodying all that is Light and Life, doomed to continual failure whenever you start to push back Darkness and Death. The latter gets to enjoy making you all suffer, infinitely. The former gets to be tortured for eternity.
 
Crake said:
R'hllor casts himself as the Martyr God specifically because the existence he is depicting is literally a personal Hell for him. Neverending suffering, on and on and on and on the Wheel would turn, forevermore.

It doesn't get any worse than embodying all that is Light and Life, doomed to continual failure whenever you start to push back Darkness and Death. The latter gets to enjoy making you all suffer, infinitely. The former gets to be tortured for eternity.
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I thought R'hllor's dogma allowed for eventual victory over the darkness through Azor Ashai. Or is that only a reprieve for another few millennia?
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I have always been puzzled by the "100% high octane Dragon fuel" tag, you know. It's really cool and has great FURY ROAD vibes (that film deserves all caps) but I can't actually match it to any specific events...
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I always thought it was a reference to two of our Feats, the one that guves Searing to Fire Spells if you pay HP and the one that heals you each time you cast a spell.

And the fact that Arcane Spellsurge is ridiculous for Dragons too
TalonofAnathrax said:
I thought R'hllor's dogma allowed for eventual victory over the darkness through Azor Ashai. Or is that only a reprieve for another few millennia?
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*looks at GoT*

Signs point to the latter
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
I thought R'hllor's dogma allowed for eventual victory over the darkness through Azor Ashai. Or is that only a reprieve for another few millennia?
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Who could say. I mean in WoT they imply that Free Will is still a thing and is actually the cause of all suffering, the Dark One only making it possible for humans to organize their own destruction and suffering. Given how crapsack this setting is, my guess is... that would not quite be the case here, and that the deck would be heavily stacked against Light ever getting a more than bittersweet ending.
 
Goldfish said:
The more allied gods the better, but we have Word of DP that Bahamut would be extremely difficult to work with. He is diametrically opposed to blood sacrifice, for example, and would expect us to stop using it.
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Are you saying None of the other gods we work with are against blood sacrifice? Could you link the post so I could read it myself IA didn't come across anything like that before?

I woulda shown that just like the Seven, And the red God there are things that bahamut a doesn't particularly like about our Empire but is willing to ignore them or bend on those rules. Considering that he has far more to gain than any other God except for a little snake friend If not that would easily put him into the good is dumb category that DP seems to absolutely hate having in the his story in any form.
 
From what I remember from readying DnD stuff the Avatar of Bahamut for humans was a pretty nice dude

The one he used to deal with Dragons was indeed much much less permissive.
 
lancelot said:
Are you saying None of the other gods we work with are against blood sacrifice? Could you link the post so I could read it myself IA didn't come across anything like that before?

I woulda shown that just like the Seven, And the red God there are things that bahamut a doesn't particularly like about our Empire but is willing to ignore them or bend on those rules. Considering that he has far more to gain than any other God except for a little snake friend If not that would easily put him into the good is dumb category that DP seems to absolutely hate having in the his story in any form.
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It's not just that Bahamut doesn't like blood sacrifice, but that he would actively refuse to work with us so long as we used it. He has very well defined principles and he isn't willing to compromise on them even a little.

He would also be opposed to us having Devils in our service. I can't recall exactly when DP told us this stuff, and I'm not sure which keywords to use to find it again. If you don't believe me, feel free to ask DP tomorrow.
 
lancelot said:
Are you saying None of the other gods we work with are against blood sacrifice? Could you link the post so I could read it myself IA didn't come across anything like that before?

I woulda shown that just like the Seven, And the red God there are things that bahamut a doesn't particularly like about our Empire but is willing to ignore them or bend on those rules. Considering that he has far more to gain than any other God except for a little snake friend If not that would easily put him into the good is dumb category that DP seems to absolutely hate having in the his story in any form.
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He's also too high on his own bullshit to work with long term. When he peeked in on Tiamat's deal with Dany, then left after she did what any child would do, he proved one of a few things about himself. Either he didn't care, did care and felt she'd failed him, or couldn't act because he was too bound up by his position.

I find the last least likely given that he made no attempts to reach us, even after we demonstrated our practical value.

Its hard to believe that after the first conversation Tiamat had total control forever and he had to pound sand; unless he's as tightly bound as Winter it had to be a choice on some level.

The debatable relevance of that grudge aside, that whole debacle demonstrated how unreliable he is to work with at the edges of his comfort zone.

If it was a binding and he actually wanted to help then we need to walk through a minefield of his issues while working with him, especially when doing something with Tiamat.

If he just didn't care we have to manage a god who is opposed to our way of doing business, derisive of mortals, and likely resentful of the limits we try to place on him acting in our territory.

If he did care, and abandoned a 6 year old to Tiamat because she didn't pass his secret test, then he can go fuck himself and try to get dragons that live up to his standards that way.

Not worth dealing with his baggage in my opinion.
 
DragonParadox said:
I'm going to say this bluntly to save on the salt, Bahamut would probably be one of the hardest gods to get on board and require the most sacrifices from you guys. I say this because Viserys has a good knowledge religions and knows something of his character and tenets.
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@lancelot

This is the relevant quote regarding Bahamut. Straight up DP has never said this about any god ever. Yet he said it about Bahamut. If need be I can pull up quotes from Azel from his DMing days but I think this is sufficient.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
He's also too high on his own bullshit to work with long term. When he peeked in on Tiamat's deal with Dany, then left after she did what any child would do, he proved one of a few things about himself. Either he didn't care, did care and felt she'd failed him, or couldn't act because he was too bound up by his position.
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Would you care to point out DP's WoG post that says he didn't have to wait his turn as Tiamat had the strongest connection to color dragons?

Most of your post just seems to be assuming the worst without anything behind it. If he isn't willing to bend that is fine he can find someone else to help him. But I don't think DP EVER said that let Taimat fuck with Dany as a test and could have interrupted at any time.
 
So after some consideration, I didn't like the way my vote turned out and @BronzeTongue raised some cogent points. While I still don't want to argue the merit of our perspective against R'hllor's own, not because I don't think we could not engage him in some lively debate, I do think that he's very confident in his own opinion and that we will have to do something very groundbreaking in order to change it.

Reposting plan now.

[X] "So if I should fail, your plan will remain in place. Perhaps me for a martyr to light that final pyre and transcend what was and what could yet be."
-[X] Contrary to your expectations, this is not you speaking out in anger, but understanding. If things had fallen so far by then, you would hope to spite the Void, Asmodeus or whatever had heralded the destruction of your ambitions and hopes, even if it's upon the back of R'hllor the Red's pitiless march against the dying of light.
-[X] There is much you do not agree with R'hllor upon, most evident in the false equivalence he weighs the freeing of slaves and measuring the merit of their loyalty upon the balance of the same blade, duty. Such mental arithmetic conducted is no less like that which Asmodeus performs when comparing unmoored soulfire against living and breathing mortals, and then deems them one and the same, fuel for a war without end and personal vanity.
-[X] And through seeking freedom upon twisted paths you ever shall walk in the company of others who have made the same choice, not freedom without worry or concern, but the ability to choose and the ability to reconsider. Better perhaps to say that you advocate agency rather than ambition without end, or you would not strive against becoming a god yourself.
-[X] And let it be said, you do not intend to fail.
-[X] "Let's make sure that won't be necessary, shall we?"
-[X] "I and a collective of other deities gather in common purpose, to place She of Many Colors in a compromising position, one with which a mighty blow could be dealt to Her, their plans sent tumbling, out of the picture for as long as it takes for them to lick their wounds. If we should be so lucky, let it be another age. For myself, I would settle for a mere century. She will not have the time to regain that lost ground, while we will far beyond the horizon, as this is the pivot upon which the future shall tilt."
-[X] You explain the essentials of the plan if not the details so he can better empower the foci of the trap.
-[X] If he agrees, you have some questions he might be able to answer, though you aren't expecting him to share everything or really anything. What he does will inform you of what he wants you to concern yourself with.
 
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lancelot said:
Would you care to point out DP's WoG post that says he didn't have to wait his turn as Tiamat had the strongest connection to color dragons?

Most of your post just seems to be assuming the worst without anything behind it. If he isn't willing to bend that is fine he can find someone else to help him. But I don't think DP EVER said that let Taimat fuck with Dany as a test and could have interrupted at any time.
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There is no such WoG that I'm aware of, and I will acknowledge that I'm biased on this topic.

That being said, you're giving Bahamut the benefit of the doubt largely drawn from DnD lore that doesn't fully apply here, and not his actions in this quest which most certainly do.

I also did address the possibility of a binding. I just don't believe that Tiamat got to call dibs on Dany and anything related to her forever with no real contest from him if he cared to give one. If that's the case then Bahamut is worse than useless to us in this particular fight.

From a purely pragmatic perspective, Tiamat getting a cleric on the prime material during one of its most vulnerable moments is something he should involve himself in. If we weren't here opposing her she'd have made significant progress towards her end game by now.

Given his power and experience, I feel comfortable assuming he could do something like target his divination at the place all of this happened, and that on our end we would have noticed something like Tiamat Mindblanking Dany.

So if he had the information he should have had if he acted intelligently, then Bahamut made active choices to stay away from us even when he could have shut down Tiamat by giving us a shadow of an out to pursue on Dany's behalf. This implies things to me about his motives and character.

Is there supposition in this line of thought? Yes. I personally think I kept the chain of logic relatively constrained, but I could be wrong about something that changes the equation.

I will say that in the face of uncertainty, it's generally agreed that almost literally poking a dragon in the face and asking for stuff on the off chance it likes you is a bad idea.

Edit: to be clear, I don't dislike him because he didn't help us, I dislike him because I think he did purposefully use Tiamat as a test (based on the information we have now anyway).

His inaction in the face of a clear route to protecting his own interests is just more evidence for my theory on his motivations.
 
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It's really weird how Bahamut is this unbending lawful asshole here while the one from dnd is quite honestly a weak soft guy who's almost entirely irrelevant, I still remember getting ducked as a paladin for being too harsh with cultists.
 
Thing is guys I remember that update. Ut was all basically DP giving us an out for killing yourself trying to perform a heart transplant on our selves with a fairy dragon heart.

He didnt want to kill off the PC because we botched a surgery. So he made up that divine intervention. Option one Tiamat we voted to refuse that Bahamut and if not Dany PC quest.

The lore came later. In the end it was a DM charity case. Drama all came later. Let's not get too heated about that.

Some times I feel we get too into the roleplay to a freaking dnd asoiaf crossover game.
 
Abhishek M said:
Thing is guys I remember that update. Ut was all basically DP giving us an out for killing yourself trying to perform a heart transplant on our selves with a fairy dragon heart.

He didnt want to kill off the PC because we botched a surgery. So he made up that divine intervention. Option one Tiamat we voted to refuse that Bahamut and if not Dany PC quest.

The lore came later. In the end it was a DM charity case. Drama all came later. Let's not get too heated about that.

Some times I feel we get too into the roleplay to a freaking dnd asoiaf crossover game.
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Sometimes I guess, personally I don't feel that salty about this at the moment. We can have contentious debates for without getting heated about them; I think it's part of the fun.

... I guess we could go back to talking about R'hllor or something since this topic isn't going anywhere. Does his blessing only count for domains he has opposing themes for, or can he challenge her on stuff like Tyranny?
 
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