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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
Funny that it's apparently a neat little numbers game every time I strike out a few thousand people from the statistics
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Yes. Absolutely. "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

It being close and personal makes all the difference.

Besides, like said before, killing (potentially innocent) people on a pit of wildfire is mashing many of Visery' buttons.

A short stab of guilt is only healthy.
 
Azel said:
I get what you mean, but I still consider it a reprehensible disconnect from the effects of his own actions.

He also condemned the people in the Disputed Lands sight unseen. Had he not given the order, they would be still alive. We can now argue if this is better or worse then letting the problem fester... but isn't that exactly what we just argued about in regards to the guild?
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Well yes but he did not condemn them not something as arbitrary as location in place and time. He set up rules, told them what the rules were and then sent people to enforce said rules. Would there be transgressions even then? Yes, but that just means the rules require refinement or the enforcers need changing in certain cases. By contrast here there is nothing to fix, nothing to tweak, so he was left with a moment's sadness over his own perceived failings.
 
You know, since we are talking about self improvement, why not discuss the ultimate benefit of our emotions.
Who is a better Viserys, the one that feels guilty here or the one that does not? which one would rule a better kingdom?

I am firmly in the "feeling guilty, yet still doing it" being the best option by far.
Because you need to care about your subjects, otherwise whats the point? but you cannot draw a line between enemies=all guilty, destroy without pause, and allies = care and protect.
Thats tribalism, we need to accept the fact that some people who work for our enemies are worth saving, even if we cannot do it.
And our actions cannot depend solely on who told us what, we cared about them before lioness 2: thieving boogaloo came along, she simply reminded us.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Yes. Absolutely. "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

It being close and personal makes all the difference.

Besides, like said before, killing (potentially innocent) people on a pit of wildfire is mashing many of Visery' buttons.

A short stab of guilt is only healthy.
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That the lich had to tell us this is telling.
Here, have this voucher for a free coffee.
*planeshifts away*
 
das_slash said:
You are still talking about schrodinger Viserys, Cares about all his subjects, yet does not feel anything when killing them.

The fact that some people can simply dont feel a thing when they kill innocents does not mean no one should. Viserys Cares, thus he feels. This has been made abundantly clear in the narration, you getting hung Up on this now makes no sense.
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I've never said he shouldn't feel a thing, but here is the issue. This was not a spur of the moment decision. This plan was discussed with the party, carefully prepared and then calmly executed.

Apparently, Viserys didn't think about the moral implications of the act until the deed was done, otherwise Lannas words shouldn't have affected him. The internal debate should have already occurred, leaving only resolve.

Yet he apparently never thought about these things in advance, blindly murdered a bunch of people and needed an outsider to actually think about his actions.

And this is repulsive to me.
 
Azel said:
I've never said he shouldn't feel a thing, but here is the issue. This was not a spur of the moment decision. This plan was discussed with the party, carefully prepared and then calmly executed.

Apparently, Viserys didn't think about the moral implications of the act until the deed was done, otherwise Lannas words shouldn't have affected him. The internal debate should have already occurred, leaving only resolve.

Yet he apparently never thought about these things in advance, blindly murdered a bunch of people and needed an outsider to actually think about his actions.
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But here's the thing, Lanna just took a jab at him.

The scene is pretty horrific, and he's just done it. He wasn't breaking down over it or anything.

It stung. By definition, it was a brief, momentary pain, and it's now gone.

And that's because he did all the things you said. He planned and prepared and knew everything, going in.

"Look at this horrible thing you just did!"
*resolute grimace* "It had to be done."

It's no more than that.
 
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Azel said:
I've never said he shouldn't feel a thing, but here is the issue. This was not a spur of the moment decision. This plan was discussed with the party, carefully prepared and then calmly executed.

Apparently, Viserys didn't think about the moral implications of the act until the deed was done, otherwise Lannas words shouldn't have affected him. The internal debate should have already occurred, leaving only resolve.

Yet he apparently never thought about these things in advance, blindly murdered a bunch of people and needed an outsider to actually think about his actions.

And this is repulsive to me.
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As i said above, this was not a sudden realization, just a reminder, thus the stab of guilt and not the bout of self introspection.
Don't worry so much, Viserys is still a calculating murder machine, he is just also a decent human formerly human draconic being.

In an unrelated note, it seems some combination of sleep deprivation, a good breakfast and online morality discussion released a bunch of endorphines, making me slightly high.
So lets hug and celebrate that our plans are going well.
 
Azel said:
Apparently, Viserys didn't think about the moral implications of the act until the deed was done, otherwise Lannas words shouldn't have affected him. The internal debate should have already occurred, leaving only resolve.
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I think I see the issue now. Would it not be posibile that this resolve was always tinged by sorrow and her words merely brought it to the fore? That's what I was trying to get across in any case.
 
das_slash said:
In an unrelated note, it seems some combination of sleep deprivation, a good breakfast and online morality discussion released a bunch of endorphines, making me slightly high.
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Or it could be the drugs... Nah. Definitely the above.
das_slash said:
*Looks at own user image*
I'm not a sociopath!
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I used to think it was a Young Griffith, which would have been even more relevant.
das_slash said:
Thats tribalism, we need to accept the fact that some people who work for our enemies are worth saving, even if we cannot do it.
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Very true.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think I see the issue now. Would it not be posibile that this resolve was always tinged by sorrow and her words merely brought it to the fore? That's what I was trying to get across in any case.
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It didn't come across as resolve. It came across as Viserys coming to a sudden realization that he was wrong rather than merely bringing the already-present sorrow to the fore, and it took Dany reassuring us rather than Viserys steadying himself to move on.
 
Duesal said:
It didn't come across as resolve. It came across as Viserys coming to a sudden realization that he was wrong rather than merely bringing the already-present sorrow to the fore, and it took Dany reassuring us rather than Viserys steadying himself to move on.
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I took it as it was intended, but I think I can see where you might interpret it differently.
 
I always assumed Viserys finds bloody work regretful but sometimes necessary? Basically I just assume whenever we resolve to do things like this, Viserys wishes there was a better way, but knows that the lengths he went to to mitigate loss of life, chaos and arbitrariness were sufficient enough that he would not be overly burdened from continuing his duties.

He's good at fighting, but he does not prefer to fight. He likes to talk it out, but you can't always talk. And at times when you have to stare your actions in the face and get accused of being a tyrant, you have to grimace because you are reminded that your predecessor was a tyrant, and many will try to paint you with the same brush, maybe for centuries, maybe for millennia.
 
Some innocent people died because of our actions. If we weren't feeling a pang of guilt, I'd be much more worried.

EDIT: Also there's a difference between the abstract of planning it out, and the reality of seeing the place burning up.
 
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Crake said:
I always assumed Viserys finds bloody work regretful but sometimes necessary? Basically I just assume whenever we resolve to do things like this, Viserys wishes there was a better way, but knows that the lengths he went to to mitigate loss of life, chaos and arbitrariness were sufficient enough that he would not be overly burdened from continuing his duties.

He's good at fighting, but he does not prefer to fight. He likes to talk it out, but you can't always talk. And at times when you have to stare your actions in the face and get accused of being a tyrant, you have to grimace because you are reminded that your predecessor was a tyrant, and many will try to paint you with the same brush, maybe for centuries, maybe for millennia.
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:eyebrow:... how are we not good again?:V:whistle:;)

Not disagreeing. I agree wholeheartedly. But come on Paarthunax would approve.
 
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das_slash said:
Thats tribalism, we need to accept the fact that some people who work for our enemies are worth saving, even if we cannot do it.
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I by the way firmly reject the notion that I'm all too eager to kill everyone not part of our tribe.

It took me a good long while before I was willing to advocate for Operation Sinkhole.
 
Azel said:
Funny that it's apparently a neat little numbers game every time I strike out a few thousand people from the statistics. Something around 2,000 minor tyroshi nobles this month from enforcing our laws if my memory serves. Probably well over 10,000 lower class people that acted as their enforcers.

This is what it means to rule. People live and die by your decisions. Thousands of them.
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The difference is that that's 1 impersonal, 2 not innocents but lawbreakers.
 
I never liked plan sinkhole that much either but their was no alternative plan posted and I didn't know enough about DnD side of things to make a plan myself.

It was still likely the best move.
 
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