What.

Players don't trust him.
DP said Viserys doesn't trust him IC.

So the solution is to give him full access to the Shadow Tower and our mages by making him part of the faculty?

:jackiechan:


See my above post. Contentious topic was missed by most due to being included in the middle of a larger matter.

It was never discussed at all, so trying to force people to make some kind of deal here just because of that is ridiculous.
I feel more than a little at fault for this. I felt I was being transparent with the vote being in the open, but that clearly was not the case. Sorry about that, I'll try to avoid stuff like this in the future. Amidst the argument and the many points brought up (in particular the IC reasons for mistrust) I've pretty much lost interest in dealing with him.

Why not just consolidate with TNE so we can handle this then leave?
 
I didn't care about coming to see the Necromancer, either, but that is not the point. We visited him, so we need to have some IC justification to have done so, not just an "oh, we we're in town and thought we would stop by for tea and snacks, how has has the grave-robbing been lately".
So if I include "summon Devil to make a deal with Asmodeus" into some other vote, I can force others to make deal to give an IC reason?

Sorry, but I will be blunt. This is nonsense. You are incentivising people to actively tailor votes to push their pet agendas against the thread majority.

If this meeting came to pass for disingenuous reasons, then it's perfectly valid to call it off.

As for the Dryad in the turn vote. As soon as someone mentioned it, I altered the plan and explicitly made it to require a selarase vote. There was no attempt to hide anything.
And this is how it should be.

Which is how this here needs to be handled. People didn't properly vote for the necromancer visit, so they must have a chance to call off the deal entirely.
 
[X] Azel
Yeah, I'm not terribly interested in this Necromancer

I wanted to say they last several updates have been great, and wanted to congratulate @Crake on an excellent omake in particular

Been irl busy recently, so posting has dropped off more than usual

Stupid merger, taking a huge bite out of my Internet D&D time
 
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So if I include "summon Devil to make a deal with Asmodeus" into some other vote, I can force others to make deal to give an IC reason?

Sorry, but I will be blunt. This is nonsense. You are incentivising people to actively tailor votes to push their pet agendas against the thread majority.

If this meeting came to pass for disingenuous reasons, then it's perfectly valid to call it off.


And this is how it should be.

Which is how this here needs to be handled. People didn't properly vote for the necromancer visit, so they must have a chance to call off the deal entirely.
You're still missing my point. The meeting already happened. There needs to be a suitable reason for it. We shouldn't need to ask DP to retcon a really neat scene because you don't want to set a bad precedent.

All other considerations need not apply. We can be more careful about letting similar situations crop up in the future. Now we just need to fix it in a manner that fits within the narrative.
 
As for the Dryad in the turn vote. As soon as someone mentioned it, I altered the plan and explicitly made it to require a separate vote. There was no attempt to hide anything.
I said it at the time, and I'll say it again, thanks very much for doing so.


The meeting already happened. There needs to be a suitable reason for it. We shouldn't need to ask DP to retcon a really neat scene because you don't want to set a bad precedent.
No need for a retcon "you know on second thought this dude is 1000% sketch, nvm" is a perfectly fine IC reaction :p
 
You're still missing my point. The meeting already happened. There needs to be a suitable reason for it. We shouldn't need to ask DP to retcon a really neat scene because you don't want to set a bad precedent.

All other considerations need not apply. We can be more careful about letting similar situations crop up in the future. Now we just need to fix it in a manner that fits within the narrative.
No. Simply no.

If there had been an actual plan with the long list of secrets people wanted to spill here, people would have argued about it and probably never came to him if there was no majority for a deal.

As it should be.

I understand your point perfectly fine, but you want to force people into something they don't want. This is toxic vote-crafting.

Shall I include footnotes to cheat in my pet agendas? Because this is what you are trying to sign off on.
 
Everyone: the last vote about speaking to him was when, back when we were like level 9? Back then we were different. Now this isn't even a real PR hit: we can hide it and we are already hiding worse.

Edit: @Azel, please stop trying to make people out as crazy plotters manipulating the thread :/
 
Everyone: the last vote about speaking to him was when, back when we were like level 9? Back then we were different. Now this isn't even a real PR hit: we can hide it and we are already hiding worse.
No. We talked about this exact thing back when coming to Volantis this very turn.

Show of hands

Who wants something out of necromancer weirdo?

-I want the Shadow Template ritual
I'm not interested in what he has to offer. We don't need him for any of that research and I'm violently against empowering Zherys this way.
 
No. Simply no.

If there had been an actual plan with the long list of secrets people wanted to spill here, people would have argued about it and probably never came to him.

As it should be.

I understand your point perfectly fine, but you want to force people into something they don't want. This is toxic vote-crafting.

Shall I include footnotes to cheat in my pet agendas? Because this is what you are trying to sign off on.
You seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that I wanted to meet the Necromancer. I nev er wanted to deal with him at all, even back when people voted to leave the Seeker with him.

I'm trying to salvage an unfortunate situation that has arisen with a minimum of fuss, rather than making a huge kerfluffle out of it.
 
/sigh
-[X] To the Necromancer
-[X] Ask how his own studies have progressed, you are excited by the prospect of more magical trade between Volantis and your own realm, and wish to know not only about what he has to offer, but to hear about any exciting discovery for the betterment of mankind.
-[X] Mention that you found yourself as Liege for a very special being, tell him about Amrelath and his desire to return to flesh, you would allow him to study him (with the proper respect, he is a dragon after all) in exchange for his insight and help.
-[X] To sweeten the pot, you can also provide access to certain necromantic objects and texts, should he also do the same. (The corpse cage, some not too important tomes for now).
-[X] To Meraxes
-[X] Thank the priest for his time, but some of the things we need to discuss are too important to risk anyone hearing, you need to speak to his Godess directly.
-[X] If she doen't manifest an avatar or something, have Dany commune with the echo.

He is a nerd, nerds love to talk about their passions.
We better use this opportunity to learn if he is going to be a problem later, the dracolich will also allow us to obserb him more closely, and we could use his epertise.
 
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You seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that I wanted to meet the Necromancer. I nev er wanted to deal with him at all, even back when people voted to leave the Seeker with him.

I'm trying to salvage an unfortunate situation that has arisen with a minimum of fuss, rather than making a huge kerfluffle out of it.
And I think we apparently need that kerfluffle to put a lid on these things happening again and again.

People keep pushing in ill-defined meetings in footnotes.

You are saying this is okay and that the demands of IC justification allow people to automatically get some kind of deal out of it.

I'm saying this needs to stop. I'm saying a meeting shouldn't happen before we know why and about what and there being a majority for setting it up for that given purpose.
 
[X] Azel

I definitely feel at fault for this, and it's not the first time I've done this. I should probably take a back seat for a while on votes that don't involve sacrifices.
 
This is causing far too much salt than is necessary. Poking someone to know what there is to offer should definitely not be cause for so much drama.
 
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@Duesal Nah, I mean I vote for shit I think will be amusing or even just cool for no other reason than personal satisfaction all the time.

I think what we need to get a handle on is those with strong feelings in the other direction getting their thoughts on the floor before a vote preceding decision making has concluded. Because it definitely blows out of proportion any given matter being discussed as some kind of dire consequence of some dastardly villain 'sneaking in a vote' when a dozen or more people by my count were involved in pushing it through, and thus the fault is collective if they "did not into reading comprehension" enough.

This is causing far too much salt than is necessary. Poking someone to know what there is to offer should definitely not cause for so much drama.

This, +1
 
Interlude CCLXXXV: Hunter and Hunted
Hunter and Hunted

Twentieth Day of the Fourth Month 293 AC

The screeching was finally dying down, Malarys noted in silent sweet relief. They would probably scatter soon. Before coming to this land he had never imagined a place where common flesh and blood beasts could be a threat to a sorcerer of the seventh circle. Clearly that was a deficiency of imagination on his part. Not only did the damn lizard-birds take extraordinary exception to anything impinging on their domain, but they were hardy and numerous enough that witting out a flock would require the expenditure of more magic than could be justified, given what else stalked these jungles. Thus they found themselves taking shelter beneath the tangled green canopy at unpredictable hours, and making a virtue of necessity camping and sleeping through much of that time.

Still, two children and one curious musician hailing from the Farthest Shore did not make for the most sedate and cautious traveling companions. The girl knew the dangers of the jungle, more than natural skill could account for even, but her fondness for beasts, even the bone-crushing and flesh-tearing sorts, had already seen them through one battle with unnatural horrors that hunted the shadowed paths, and doubtless it would lead them to more....

As though to give lie to his thoughts it was the hireling from the Sunset Lands, Bronn, who spoke up, interpreting the moment's pleasant torpor: "There's something in the water..."

"Doubtless it has far too many teeth, spits poison, or some other absurdly vicious deterrent too close human contact, keep away," Malarys replied, though he still opened his eyes, biting back a sigh.

From the way the misshapen dark shape floated on the banks of the nameless muddy river they found themselves on it looked to be a corpse... one of almost familiar form. It was covered in dark matted fur and already wiggling with worms, leeches, or whatever other crawling horrors infested the land and water here, but still it had two arms, two legs, and even a recognizable expression of terrified shock on its flat low-browed face. From the belt still hung with crude stone tools, it was clear that this had once been a man of sorts, or at least the the closest thing these lands had to them.

The thought was abruptly cut off as the thing suddenly twitched into painful unnatural motion and began to drag itself towards the shore. Of course there were unliving too. Why would he ever think that danger would be absent? Bitter irony worked wonders in focusing the mind on the half-forgotten lessons of youth it seemed, for he was able to snare the thing with his will alone shaped by an invocation to lost Balerion's power, not wasting a spell in the process.

After motioning to his companions to stay their hand for a moment, the mage-priest asked the corpse its name and nature, without much hope for an answer, truth be told. Anything he could bespell thus was unlikely to have any wits to speak of.

The corpse surprised him by groaning something with a sense of purpose. Taking one long look around at his companions, out of which only the Westerosi seemed hesitant, and perhaps regretful for his call moments earlier. Malarys called a lesser blessing of speech, trusting the tether of control to the unliving to relay his thoughts.

"Lost..." the thing wailed. "Forgotten... Nameless..." Malarys suddenly hoped quite intensely that this thing would not be coherent enough to present some task for them to perform in order to lay its wretched soul to rest. Then it spoke yet a fourth word, one that echoed power through all the tongues of mortals and immortals both.

"Dragon."


It ill behooved one of Malarys Vanor's lineage and calling to give in to greed, and yet he felt its claws dig deep just the same, not over mere gold and trinkets of course. There were other paths to wealth. What drew him instead was the promise of knowledge, of understating those elder wyrms that spoke the tongue most prized by sorcerers. Did some yet dwell in these jungles to this very day, ruling over the 'hairy men' as their kindred had once done so over a people of shepherds whose sons and daughters would found the Freehold itself?

"Wisdom Xor, I require your intuition," he asked the spectator politely. "This creature barely has a mind to begin with, so piecing together its sad tale will not be easy."

In the end the answers did not prove that surprising in general: The youth had sought to make a name for himself, quite literally, by slaying a dragon that dwelt near the hunting grounds of his tribe and often asked heavy tribute of them in treasures recovered from the ruins or even children. Unsurprisingly the endeavor ended in the would-be dragon slayer's boat sunk and his sorrowful corpse returned to haunt rotting flesh.

"...could you have him recount that again, the title?"

"It just means 'Lord of Thunder,' a clue as to the dragon's magic of course, but...."

The spectator cut him off, something he was usually loath to do. "I don't think so, a closer translation might be 'Lord of the Screaming Ones.' I do not think our trackers follow out of instinct alone after all."

"They have been herding us with the intermittent attacks," Malarys realized with a flash of insight and fear swiftly pushed aside.

"The best sort of trap is one you turn around," the girl, Vee, pointed out calmly.

"If we kill it, can I get to make armor out of its hide?" the swordsman asked. He did not lack for nerve at least.

"Only if you're the one that kills it," young Maelor replied in like tone.

There were, Malarys had to admit, some small compensations to being in this godsforsaken wilderness.

OOC: No combat (because it would be too late to do all the rolling and calculations), but a bit of mood setting and character development.
 
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Edit: @Azel, please stop trying to make people out as crazy plotters manipulating the thread :/
Sorry, but I did argue against setting ill defined meetings on the agenda back in Braavos.

If now @Goldfish argues in favor of rewarding ill-defined meetings by censoring me for arguing against making a deal at all, I can't avoid the elephant in the room. This is abusable to the high heavens and incentivices disingenuous activities by players. It means that a malicious person (say, me, because I've got repeatedly accused of this exact thing) can force the playerbase into things by omitting to lay out his plans ahead of time, then claiming prior agreement to have been implicitly given.

This is a meta problem and I can't ignore that.
 
I mean - we never have "who will you see and what will you do there" votes. What we have always done is hashed out general details in-thread, and then voted on specifics once there. But this time instead of voting on specifics the way they wanted, @Azel complained about this.
Sure, talk to DP about it. But unless DP changes the entire way they structure meeting people and allow for more detailed preliminary votes, this will keep coming up.

I have zero problems with this situation. DP is putting several meetings together so that we can back out of one or reshape it easily. Just submit a vote to that effect!
 
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