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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Updating the plan somewhat so that the Moonsingers know exactly what they're getting into. Hopefully, this will nip any issues in the bud before they can become a problem.

[X] Yes, it would improve communication thousandfold.
-[X] Rather than simply making the request of the Moonsingers on our behalf, ask Alysande to re-introduce us to them so that we might offer them a parcel of land in Sorcerer's Deep on which they can build a new temple. We are always interested in establishing positive relationships with benevolent or even neutral deities. Should the Moonsingers prove amenable, we are willing to assist in establishing their new temple, providing material support as well as magic-aided construction.
--[X] Before they accept our offer, however, give a detailed explanation of our doctrine and laws, especially in regards to blood sacrifice of those who are unquestionably enemies of humanity, and in some cases employing those same types of beings for our own purposes. If such practices are unacceptable to their tenets, then we will politely withdraw our offer, including the request for assistance from a Watcher spirit, and thank them for their time. Also make it known that pretending to accept these practices, only to later protest after the temple has been established, would have serious repercussions for them, the least of which would be eviction from Sorcerer's Deep.
 
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Goldfish said:
We don't even have to use it for the Inquisition. If it helps, great, if not, that's fine, too. We can use it for other purposes. Hell, if it comes down to it, we can just use it to televise major events, "broadcasting" to places like Mosshold and Everfire Dale.

I expect more pragmatism out of you than this, Azel.
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I'm currently trying to run damage control here and I see nothing of any alternate uses or a set of security protocols.

All I'm trying to do here is saving the Inquisition from getting turned inside out, wrecking all the effort I've put into designing it, just to cram in the CG Shiny.
 
@Azel that might be what you see yourself doing, but it's coming across far more as a kneejerk against letting anything Good aligned into our empire. You have some legitimate concerns, but comparing this to making a deal with Abraxas is just farcical.

It's false equivalence, especially when we already have a holy artefact of the Moonsingers in our possession.
 
Azel said:
I'm currently trying to run damage control here and I see nothing of any alternate uses or a set of security protocols.

All I'm trying to do here is saving the Inquisition from getting turned inside out, wrecking all the effort I've put into designing it, just to cram in the CG Shiny.
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We could put a large mirror in the arena and have it regularly broadcast events to nearby settlements on Sorcerer's Deep.

The same could be done for important speeches, performances, or ceremonies.

Law enforcement patrols, just the SD police, could each carry an attuned mirror which they could use to communicate with a central dispatcher.

An aerial spotter capable of flight, such as Aradia, Mercy, a Griffon or Hippogriff rider, etc., could use such an attuned mirror to easily pass on information to a ground controller, letting them know when ships are inbound, or when inclement weather might be incoming.

It could serve as an emergency contact system, in the event a nearby settlement on SD comes under attack or there is some sort of serious accident that requires immediate assistance.

Etc, etc, etc.

Stop thinking of them as tools of the Inquisition and instead look at the potential they have for facilitating semi-modern telecommunication on a small scale.
 
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[X] Azel

I've been reluctantly convinced. Sure its a nice shiny, but ultimately not worth it. I think Azels not arguing that the thing will go rouge nesseserily, but that its a big point of failure. Say, a Tiamat cleric got its hands on a mirror, it could carry out a ritual that could compromise the entire security apparatus.

Its like putting the equivalent of an NSA developed Skynet in a position where it will know everything. Even if you think the system is fool proof, creating it was still an idiotic choice.

Also, (personal opinion) having a CG dude messing around the Inquisition kind of jibes with our whole human power to stand up to the horrors narrative. Having Devils fear the Inquisition not only on their own merits but on its CG presence leaves a bad taste in mouth... not my main argument, but its there I suppose.

EDIT: It would be a more contentous issue if the offer was stronger, but ultimately I'm not that impressed with this shiny to risk stuff. Lya could whip out sonething similar in a month if we asked her to. Probably a superior version as well.
 
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bigbow said:
[X] Azel

I've been reluctantly convinced. Sure its a nice shiny, but ultimately not worth it. I think Azels not arguing that the thing will go rouge nesseserily, but that its a big point of failure. Say, a Tiamat cleric got its hands on a mirror, it could carry out a ritual that could compromise the entire security apparatus.

Its like putting the equivalent of an NSA developed Skynet in a position where it will know everything. Even if you think the system is fool proof, creating it was still an idiotic choice.

Also, (personal opinion) having a CG dude messing around the Inquisition kind of jibes with our whole human power to stand up to the horrors narrative. Having Devils fear the Inquisition not only on their own merits but on its CG presence leaves a bad taste in mouth... not my main argument, but its there I suppose.
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How many times do I have to repeat myself?

We don't need to use this for the Inquisition. That's not why I want it.

For fuck's sake, I'll even specify that in my plan. Ya'll are throwing away an opportunity to have something really neat that will make Sorcerer's Deep even more awesome. By only using this setup for the Silver Eye, though with good reason, Braavos has missed out on something special.
 
Azel said:
Then you are setting up entirely redundant systems with one of them being a gaping security hole.

Don't do this. Seriously. It's not even remotely worth it.

All you are achieving is that you turn the Inquisition into a tool for some glorified pond-bint.

These are exactly the single points of failure I took great pains to eradicate in the Inquisition setup and you are now trying to invalidate all of that work because someone waves a shiny. While even openly declaring that they will use it to dictate policy in our organisation.

We had a huge argument about how the IB needs to accept checks and balances to get a cushy spot in our government. This thing would be entirely unaccountable to us. It was clearly stated that it will do as it's goddess dictates, not what we want from it.
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It don't dictate policy, it merely dictates what it will help us with, if we do things by other means then it's not involved, the inquisition shouldn't rely entirely on it, but it's a good tool for the inquisitions more morally upright duties.

[x] Goldfish
Azel said:
That is entirely conjecture. We have no idea what it would and wouldn't permit us to do.

And we shouldn't need to argue with our equipment in the first place.


For all we know the thing will throw a fit the moment we use it to coordinate a raid on a cultist base and it gets wind of our intent to sacrifice them.
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In which case we just stop using it and accept it was a loss to get it.
Azel said:
Seriously people. What?

We have pages of vitriol over the IB and then you throw away our Inquisition like this?

We are ceding operational control of our security forces to a goddess here.
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No we are not, we are getting a tool that can only be used for morally upright means, we aren't being prevented from using other tools to do less morally upright things.
 
Snowfire said:
@Azel that might be what you see yourself doing, but it's coming across far more as a kneejerk against letting anything Good aligned into our empire. You have some legitimate concerns, but comparing this to making a deal with Abraxas is just farcical.

It's false equivalence, especially when we already have a holy artefact of the Moonsingers in our possession.
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I have tried to keep out the alignment argument and instead argued that it is a bad idea to give any entity that much influence about our information network.

It were others who dismissed my concerns on virtue of "CG is always doing the right thing!". It's an argument that it having it's own motives is irrelevant due to it's alignment.

Hence the Abraxas comparison, since nobody would trust an Evil entity to not have motives opposed to ours.


By the very fact that the alignment of the Mephit is relevant to the discussion, it proves my point that it adds unnecessary and incalculable risks.
 
tarrangar said:
It don't dictate policy, it merely dictates what it will help us with, if we do things by other means then it's not involved, the inquisition shouldn't rely entirely on it, but it's a good tool for the inquisitions more morally upright duties.

[x] Goldfish

In which case we just stop using it and accept it was a loss to get it.

No we are not, we are getting a tool that can only be used for morally upright means, we aren't being prevented from using other tools to do less morally upright things.
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By the very fact that our toolset would be restricted due some beings opinions, it is shaping policy.

Wirse then that, it creates division in the Inquisition.

Do you want a civil war between Good and Non-Good Inquisition members? Because that's how you get one.
 
Is this clear enough? We are going into it from the start with no intentions of involving a Watcher with the Inquisition. I'm making it clear from the beginning. I'm also being upfront with our practices which they might find objectionable. If they have an issue with them, fine, no cool Watcher hax for us.

[X] Yes, it would improve communication a thousandfold, though such a being could not be trusted with confidential information such as that which the Inquisition regularly handles.
-[X] Rather than simply making the request of the Moonsingers on our behalf, ask Alysande to re-introduce us to them so that we might offer them a parcel of land in Sorcerer's Deep on which they can build a new temple. We are always interested in establishing positive relationships with benevolent or even neutral deities. Should the Moonsingers prove amenable, we are willing to assist in establishing their new temple, providing material support as well as magic-aided construction.
--[X] Express our interest in gaining the services of one or more Watchers. We don't want to use them in the same manner as the Silver Eye, however, nor would they be used to spy on our citizens, visitors to the island, or potential enemies. They would instead be used to facilitate easy communication throughout Sorcerer's Deep, and to perhaps even make it possible to share musical performances, plays, and tournaments with nearby settlements on the island.
--[X] Before they accept our offer, however, give a detailed explanation of our doctrine and laws, especially in regards to blood sacrifice of those who are unquestionably enemies of humanity, and in some cases employing those same types of beings for our own purposes. If such practices are unacceptable to their tenets, then we will politely withdraw our offer, including the request for assistance from a Watcher spirit, and thank them for their time. Also make it known that pretending to accept these practices, only to later protest after the temple has been established, would have serious repercussions for them, the least of which would be eviction from Sorcerer's Deep.
 
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[X] Azel

Never liked the Good is morally right and will always pick the greater good arguments. Also too much of a risk to use. Maybe after we have other methods of info gathering
 
Azel said:
I have tried to keep out the alignment argument and instead argued that it is a bad idea to give any entity that much influence about our information network.

It were others who dismissed my concerns on virtue of "CG is always doing the right thing!". It's an argument that it having it's own motives is irrelevant due to it's alignment.

Hence the Abraxas comparison, since nobody would trust an Evil entity to not have motives opposed to ours.


By the very fact that the alignment of the Mephit is relevant to the discussion, it proves my point that it adds unnecessary and incalculable risks.
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No it do not, it proves that it add limitations, and limitations is different from risk, the mirror isn't going to work against us, what it might do if it thinks we misuse it, is refuse to work or go home to the Moonsinger's realm, so the risk is that we might lose it if we don't use it right, not that if we don't use it right it will suddenly show all our plans to our enemies, so it's basically the same as with the pouch, we have to be careful in what we use it for, or we lose a valuable artifact, and maybe take a single attack, the pouch inflict holy damage and crumbles if misused, the mirror probably at most once give whatever non evil enemies we have information, then just stop working, it's not going to permanently begin working against us.
 
@Goldfish, I would prefer a stronger wording, explicitly stating that it won't be used in any capacity for Inquisition related tasks.

But feel free to add the temple back in. Since you are clearly telling them that they have to live with our practices or get lost, I have mo objections to that.

If you indulge me on the first one, I'm switching.
 
Azel said:
@Goldfish, I would prefer a stronger wording, explicitly stating that it won't be used in any capacity for Inquisition related tasks.

But feel free to add the temple back in. Since you are clearly telling them that they have to live with our practices or get lost, I have mo objections to that.

If you indulge me on the first one, I'm switching.
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Done.
 
Azel said:
@Artemis1992, @Duesal, @MasterDrakus, @Crake, @Galerius, @bigbow, @One Autumn Leaf

Since @Goldfish has adjusted his vote to explicitly reject the use of this for the Inquisition, my objections are addressed and I will switch to his vote.

[X] Goldfish

Shinies for the Shiny Throne!
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I have a feeling the Moonsingers will reject our offer, but the attempt should be made anyway.

If they want to get pissy about the sacrifice of monsters to Snake-Bro or the OG, well, they can enjoy being further marginalized when we run the continent.
 
Goldfish said:
I have a feeling the Moonsingers will reject our offer, but the attempt should be made anyway.

If they want to get pissy about the sacrifice of monsters to Snake-Bro or the OG, well, they can enjoy being further marginalized when we run the continent.
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Pretty much.

Contrary to the often erected strawman version of me, I don't care what gods come to SD as long as they don't try to meddle in our operations, actively damage the realm or try to dictate policy.

I don't care if we get a temple of Bahamur, Burny, the Moon Goddess or Abraxas. They have to play nice with each other and don't interrupt our recreational gardening. Or else.
 
[x] Goldfish

Honestly they seem perfectly fine to me. We just wont involve them in Malarys's more...shadier assignments. Having a light side to the inquisition along with its bureaucratic side and it's dark under elly sounds like a good idea. And I stand by my belief that a NG population will be ideal. Good does not mean stupid and it certainly does not have to mean untrustworthy.
 
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