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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Artemis1992 said:
I see no real way around that.

UNless they are very, very good at taking that vengance, then they'll either get away with it without being caught (or even the murder identified as such), or someone higher up might take interest enough to recruit them.

As always, exeptions only for people doing PC-worthy deeds.;)
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I see a quite simple solution, we execute the ones who murdered their slaves, if they didn't have slaves executed for anything less than the law saying they should execute them, then they wont get punished, but if they executed slaves for things the law don't say is an executable offence, then they get executed themselves.

Basically we treat things as if every slave they killed was a freeman, and judge them according to that.
 
tarrangar said:
I see a quite simple solution, we execute the ones who murdered their slaves, if they didn't have slaves executed for anything less than the law saying they should execute them, then they wont get punished, but if they executed slaves for things the law don't say is an executable offence, then they get executed themselves.

Basically we treat things as if every slave they killed was a freeman, and judge them according to that.
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So you want to execute people based off a law that they didn't know about and was only implemented after an invasion came in to enforce it. I don't have words
 
Duesal said:
They're just going to have to deal with it. We're not going to allow this kind of shit. When we take over there should be zero tolerance for vigilante justice.
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I disagree, if we wont make our laws just, then vigilante justice isn't wholly wrong, and not punishing the murderers are definitely not just, if we don't execute them, we can at least strip them of all titles and exile them.

I find telling victims to suck it up because it was legal at the time morally repugnant, so you aren't going to change my mind.
 
A solution to a lot of our problems in Tyrosh would be mass migration away from the city. There is a lot of nice real estate in the Stepstones that is currently unoccupied, and Tyrosh is massively overpopulated. We could set up satellite communities of freed slaves all throughout the Stepstones with minimal expense, while reducing the pressures on Tyrosh, from a logistical, law & order, and political standpoint.
 
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tarrangar said:
Then our laws should be just, it's not just to tell them that they wont get reparations, either in blood or coin for their slaughtered loved ones.

Tabula Rasa suck when one side is clearly the wronged one, especially when it's enforced by an outside force, as opposed to something the wronged side agrees to.
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Sucks to be them.
They can have justice in heaven, when they die. Except that they never will go to heaven, because they'll be murderers.
Vengeance isn't a Good act in D&D. In fact it's often murder, which is Evil.
Are you telling us that we should support Evil acts?

And no, we can't "just judge everyone as if all slaves had been freedmen".
NO RETROACTIVE LAWS
EVER
Seriously, it's a really shitty precedent to set. It permanently deeply undermines the rule of law, forever. Even in the real world it isn't done! Even Hitler didn't do it, and he did some crazy shit with his institutions! Especially the financial and racial ones!

They're slaves. Their lives suck. Now they're free, they suck less. If they commit murder they get a free noose, like every other free man.
If they can prove that someone is guilty of something, then we might act. But they never will be able to prove it, because it can't be done in any kind of numbers. And even trying to do so would destroy the state and the economy, and then there would be deaths, riots and famines. Which is worse than letting people get away with following evil laws and customs that they had been raised to think of as perfectly legitimate.

Edit: Coming across this post again two years later, all I've got to say is "WTF was I thinking when I thought that this post was a good argument?" :cry: :cry: :cry:
 
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What percentage of the slavers really need killing? If think we can kill something like 10% of the ruling class and get away with It.
Offer them a Relath deal, ask everyone to bend the knee 3 times, with increased taxes, standing trial for past crimes, and death being the punishment for everyone standing after we ask each time.
 
tarrangar said:
I see a quite simple solution, we execute the ones who murdered their slaves, if they didn't have slaves executed for anything less than the law saying they should execute them, then they wont get punished, but if they executed slaves for things the law don't say is an executable offence, then they get executed themselves.

Basically we treat things as if every slave they killed was a freeman, and judge them according to that.
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For what time period?
Where to get the facts?
With what documentation?

We would have to reconstruct the case of every last dead slave over a long period of time, with long gone or dead witnesses, as DP mentioned spotty or even non-existant legal documentation and all that after the chaos and destruction that comes with our invasion and the daemonic rampages that will accompany it.

What you suggest is almost impossible and certainly not worth the effort.
 
tarrangar said:
I disagree, if we wont make our laws just, then vigilante justice isn't wholly wrong, and not punishing the murderers are definitely not just, if we don't execute them, we can at least strip them of all titles and exile them.

I find telling victims to suck it up because it was legal at the time morally repugnant, so you aren't going to change my mind.
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I never expected to change your mind, don't worry about that. Nonetheless it's clear to me that your desired justice would just cause chaos and anarchy when we're trying to establish law and order, so I'll stand against that.
 
tarrangar said:
Better than letting them off free for murder.
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Forget fucking morals. The fact of the matter is that we can't even identify the guilty!
Every single person will start accusing their enemies of stuff just to get their stuff. That is what happens in these kind of cases. We don't have the resources or time to resolve this, and even trying would cause more pain that it would avoid due to riots, famines and rebellions.
So everyone just has to suck it up. Just like in real life.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Sucks to be them.
They can have justice in heaven, when they die. Except that they never will go to heaven, because they'll be murderers.
Vengeance isn't a Good act in D&D. In fact it's often murder, which is Evil.
Are you telling us that we should support Evil acts?

And no, we can't "just judge everyone as if all slaves had been freedmen".
NO RETROACTIVE LAWS
EVER
Seriously, it's a really shitty precedent to set. It permanently deeply undermines the rule of law, forever. Even in the real world it isn't done! Even Hitler didn't do it, and he did some crazy shit with his institutions! Especially the financial and racial ones!

They're slaves. Their lives suck. Now they're free, they suck less. If they commit murder they get a free noose, like every other free man.
If they can prove that someone is guilty of something, then we might act. But they never will be able to prove it, because it can't be done in any kind of numbers. And even trying to do so would destroy the state and the economy, and then there would be deaths, riots and famines. Which is worse than letting people get away with following evil laws and customs that they had been raised to think of as perfectly legitimate.
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Retroactive laws is actually fairly common when you conquer a place, it's when you already rule the place that it's a bad idea, you shouldn't retroactively change your laws, but retroactively applying them to a place you conquered is completely different.
 
Artemis1992 said:
For what time period?
Where to get the facts?
With what documentation?

We would have to reconstruct the case of every last dead slave over a long period of time, with long gone or dead witnesses, as DP mentioned spotty or even non-existant legal documentation and all that after the chaos and destruction that comes with our invasion and the daemonic rampages that will accompany it.

What you suggest is almost impossible and certainly not worth the effort.
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It's not all that hard, we have zones of truth and charm effects, interrogating every slaver on if they have killed slaves and why, is not that hard.
TalonofAnathrax said:
Forget fucking morals. The fact of the matter is that we can't even identify the guilty!
Every single person will start accusing their enemies of stuff just to get their stuff. That is what happens in these kind of cases. We don't have the resources or time to resolve this, and even trying would cause more pain that it would avoid due to riots, famines and rebellions.
So everyone just has to suck it up. Just like in real life.
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We have literal magic, false accusations kind of fall flat in front of making the accused say whether they did it under a truth spell, so there's no reason innocents should be executed.
 
tarrangar said:
Retroactive laws is actually fairly common when you conquer a place, it's when you already rule the place that it's a bad idea, you shouldn't retroactively change your laws, but retroactively applying them to a place you conquered is completely different.
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Of course it isn't. Retroactive laws are absolutely not common. Name examples of you can.
...
See? You can't, apart from "the previous leadership loses power and maybe dies".
Not "we kill their families and pretty much the entire ruling class". Even Mao didn't do that, and half his ideology was large-scale class warfare!

DragonParadox said:
I'm tempted to say standard array but that is not designed with casters in mind... eh what the hell they have the blood of dragons go with the elite array.
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Great!
This goes with the theme too. Just looking at our Adepts and Archivists and Wizards shows that Tier 1 casters get some sort of decent point buy (elite array will do) while Tier 2 casters get shit.

Character sheet coming later, with advancement and in a format you can copy-paste to the front page.
 
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tarrangar said:
Retroactive laws is actually fairly common when you conquer a place, it's when you already rule the place that it's a bad idea, you shouldn't retroactively change your laws, but retroactively applying them to a place you conquered is completely different.
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I think what you're failing to understand is that we simply cannot devote the time necessary to implement what you are proposing. It would be a full time job, using all of our Companions, and it would leave the city a gutted mess when we finally got it done.

We aren't taking Tyrosh to enact some sort of long sought after revenge for centuries of slaving. That's not why we want the place.

We'll make it better, but only in a realistic, common sense manner, which can be sustained without us being needing to constantly put out fires, some of which would be quite literal.
 
tarrangar said:
It's not all that hard, we have zones of truth and charm effects, interrogating every slaver on if they have killed slaves and why, is not that hard.

We have literal magic, false accusations kind of fall flat in front of making the accused say whether they did it under a truth spell, so there's no reason innocents should be executed.
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Too much time, resources and magic that can go anywhere else. It's a conquest. You want to add more instability?
 
tarrangar said:
It's not all that hard, we have zones of truth and charm effects, interrogating every slaver on if they have killed slaves and why, is not that hard.

We have literal magic, false accusations kind of fall flat in front of making the accused say whether they did it under a truth spell, so there's no reason innocents should be executed.
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No we don't have those resources. With all our skills and assuming each case could be reviewed and solved and enforced in an hour, we could get through about 50 a day by putting all our Companions on the job.
Consider the population of Tyrosh and estimating that there's one trial for every 4 people...
It would take years to finish! Doing nothing but that all day every day!
 
tarrangar said:
It's not all that hard, we have zones of truth and charm effects, interrogating every slaver on if they have killed slaves and why, is not that hard.
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You are talking about investing the personal attention of PCs on interrogating thousands or ten-thousands of people who might have done something.
And we are not talking about a simple question like "Have you murdered any slaves?", because by their own definition and understanding they won't lie in saying no.
This would basically require actual, if short, talks with every single upperclass member and propably the slave-overseers too.

I think I can speak for the thread when I say "No". We will not waste months worth of actions on that project.

Edit: Or years. Not sure here.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
Forget fucking morals. The fact of the matter is that we can't even identify the guilty!
Every single person will start accusing their enemies of stuff just to get their stuff. That is what happens in these kind of cases. We don't have the resources or time to resolve this, and even trying would cause more pain that it would avoid due to riots, famines and rebellions.
So everyone just has to suck it up. Just like in real life.
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I think we can? Circle of truth tree.
Now, i dont support tarrangars "free revenge" policy, as much i support vigilante Justice It isnt much fun when you are the authority, we are supposed to do a good enough job that such isnt necessary.
I think we can avoid the worst problems by simply culling the worst magisters, we dont even have to judge them for past crimes, the ones that killed and tortured slaves are the most likely to conspire against us and deal with demons anyway, we are going to kill those guys one way or another.
For the delicate cases, just order reparations, or dig until we find something else that was an actual crime at the time and hang them for that.
 
tarrangar said:
It's not all that hard, we have zones of truth and charm effects, interrogating every slaver on if they have killed slaves and why, is not that hard.

We have literal magic, false accusations kind of fall flat in front of making the accused say whether they did it under a truth spell, so there's no reason innocents should be executed.
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Yes it is hard. It would take an ungodly amount of time. Tyrosh is stupidly huge for a medieval city and the slave-owning free men are a significant portion of the populace.

And even if we did find all of them, after months of time, which would certainly cause unneeded strife in the city, there wouldn't likely be enough people left alive to effectively govern the city.

Look, I'm right there with you, dude. I think our justice system IRL is a fucking joke. I wouldn't be upset if hardcore criminals, murderers, rapists, and pedophiles, were tortured to death on Pay-Per-View television. That's not practical or sustainable, though, and neither is what you want us to do in Tyrosh.
 
iggyfan said:
Examples. Now.
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Well the very fact that you often execute a lot of the enemy, fighting you was perfectly legal until then, then there's the fact that when it's different religions invading, they often punish people for having done things against their religion.

It rarely get so drastic as I'm proposing, but often a lot of people are punished for things they did that were legal under the old regime, although mainly either on account of religion, or because said thing was against the new regime.
 
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