Yes, and that would leave them exceedingly dangerous, but it would force them out of hiding, especially if they were trying to avoid enslavement or destruction. The Church Inquisitors can use the ability at will, so it's not unreasonable to assume they could have regularly swept the population for shapechangers, Dragons included.
For now such an ability would force Viserys into his human form. Come 15th level, that's another matter entirely... :evil:
Regarding this, I think Malarys' ability straight up won't work on Viserys after level 15. Not unless he's using one of his lesser forms.

As per his class, Viserys will be equally comfortable as a human and a dragon. Both are his natural form.
 
Yes, and that would leave them exceedingly dangerous, but it would force them out of hiding, especially if they were trying to avoid enslavement or destruction. The Church Inquisitors can use the ability at will, so it's not unreasonable to assume they could have regularly swept the population for shapechangers, Dragons included.

Sure but the quoted text pretty clearly states Dragon>Human.
 
Sure but the quoted text pretty clearly states Dragon>Human.
That's for dragons who are born as dragons and polymorph into humans for hiding. That's quite a bit different from what Viserys is turning into. A dragon born as a dragon will obviously be more comfortable in dragon form and have that as its "natural" form. Viserys would consider both human form and dragon form to be his natural forms.

EDIT: Wait, never mind. Ignore that. I'm confused.
Dany giggles. "Forcing a wyrm into human shape... One would half expect them to spontaneously combust from sheer outrage."
How on earth would a dragon consider a human form to be its natural form?
 
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That's for dragons who are born as dragons and polymorph into humans for hiding. That's quite a bit different from what Viserys is turning into.

Yes I know, I'm talking about the described scenario in Valyria.

Turning Dragons into Humans because they are overly fond of human shape when the whole point is to return them to their true form makes no sense.

Either Dany has terrible comprehension and nobody thought to mention it, including Malarys who knows first hand and it came up as a topic for learning purposes.

So if he did the below

"What is a moment's discomfort to the great worth of learning?" you ask, causing Ser Richard to mutter soemthign suspiciously like 'it's catching.'

Malarys reaches out to take your hand then, though he waits for you to nod one more time.

Pain wracks you the likes of which you had never felt before as though your skin were being flayed by phantom whips and your bones reshaped by mallets. As quickly as it had come the pain is gone, yet it leaves you entirely human... and you can feel the shadow of that torment coiling in your flesh. For two dozen heart-beats you know with cold certainty that you cannot take on your half-shape.

And then didn't bother to correct Dany's clearly spoken misconception maybe we should be introducing Malarys to PAIN for learning purposes.
 
Yes I know, I'm talking about the described scenario in Valyria.

Turning Dragons into Humans because they are overly fond of human shape when the whole point is to return them to their true form makes no sense.

Either Dany has terrible comprehension and nobody thought to mention it, including Malarys who knows first hand and it came up as a topic for learning purposes.

So if he did the below



And then didn't bother to correct Dany's clearly spoken misconception maybe we should be introducing Malarys to PAIN for learning purposes.

Malarys may not know. Intelligent dragons had been dead for quite some time by the time of his birth, leaving only the feral dragons ridden by the Valyrians as mounts. Just because it's IC speculation doesn't mean it isn't speculation.
 
Yes I know, I'm talking about the described scenario in Valyria.

Turning Dragons into Humans because they are overly fond of human shape when the whole point is to return them to their true form makes no sense.

Either Dany has terrible comprehension and nobody thought to mention it, including Malarys who knows first hand and it came up as a topic for learning purposes.

So if he did the below

And then didn't bother to correct Dany's clearly spoken misconception maybe we should be introducing Malarys to PAIN for learning purposes.

It's more likely that Malarys is simply ignorant of the effect, since True Dragons capable of shapeshifting had been gone for millenia before he was ever born. He seemed to be speculating on the origin of his Orders' ability to me.

EDIT: Faceless'd :ninja:
 
Sure, except Dany mentions forcing great wyrms into human form.
Yes I know, I'm talking about the described scenario in Valyria.

Turning Dragons into Humans because they are overly fond of human shape when the whole point is to return them to their true form makes no sense.

Either Dany has terrible comprehension and nobody thought to mention it, including Malarys who knows first hand and it came up as a topic for learning purposes.

So if he did the below
Yeah, and it makes sense fluff-wise for the war against the Chromatics, but I have no idea how that's represented mechanically. The ability we have in front of us clearly forces things to revert to their natural form. A Dragon -> Human is not forcing a reversion to its natural form.

I really hope DP just gives us the PrC with all the modifications he's made, because this most certainly is not the vanilla.

EDIT: Double Faceless'd. Never mind.
 
Malarys may not know. Intelligent dragons had been dead for quite some time by the time of his birth, leaving only the feral dragons ridden by the Valyrians as mounts. Just because it's IC speculation doesn't mean it isn't speculation.
What are you saying? That Malarys doesn't know that "the great wyrms" had "dragon" as their natural form? Or that he doesn't understand how his Force Shapechange functions?
"Nothing so crude as torture, merely a means of forcing those who wear many skins into their truest one."
Neither seems likely.
 
I'm more concerned about the DC attributed to our transformation because it's not done by spell and there's no DC worked into the Ex ability because it's only effecting us.

Did Malarys roll low or high?

How/Can we buff our transformation?

Did it go through Bead of Newt Prevention or did Viserys take it off?
 
Either Dany has terrible comprehension and nobody thought to mention it, including Malarys who knows first hand and it came up as a topic for learning purposes.
Dany misunderstanding is some explanation - they were interrupted right after her comment so there wasn't time for anyone to correct her. But that seems unnecessarily confusing to the reader, so I doubt it was DP's intention.
 
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What are you saying? That Malarys doesn't know that "the great wyrms" had "dragon" as their natural form? Or that he doesn't understand how his Force Shapechange functions?

Neither seems likely.

The former. Magic still existed when Valyria fell, though reduced. Dragons are not the only shapechangers in existence, so his personal experience with the ability would be with shapechangers who were not dragons, since it has been millennia since dragons with magic were around.

Remember that Dany is Malarys's social superior. He's not going to correct her speculation unless he knows it's wrong.


Did it go through Bead of Newt Prevention or did Viserys take it off?

It's not a polymorph effect, it's a dispel like effect, so Newt Prevention wouldn't kick in.
 
I'm more concerned about the DC attributed to our transformation because it's not done by spell and there's no DC worked into the Ex ability because it's only effecting us.

Did Malarys roll low or high?

How/Can we buff our transformation?

Did it go through Bead of Newt Prevention or did Viserys take it off?

I'm speculating, but the caster level for Viserys' transformations is probably based off his character level given similar abilities exhibited by other creatures. There is no saving throw, just an opposed caster level check. It's another reason for Viserys to gain the Scintillating Scales spells, to change his Natural Armor bonus into a Deflection bonus. Melee Touch attacks would be far more difficult against him.

Malarys likely didn't have to roll at all, as Viserys was perfectly willing to allow him to test the extent of his powers. There was not even a hint of conceptual resistance.
 
The former. Magic still existed when Valyria fell, though reduced. Dragons are not the only shapechangers in existence, so his personal experience with the ability would be with shapechangers who were not dragons, since it has been millennia since dragons with magic were around.

Remember that Dany is Malarys's social superior. He's not going to correct her speculation unless he knows it's wrong.




It's not a polymorph effect, it's a dispel like effect, so Newt Prevention wouldn't kick in.

As Scribbler said

"Nothing so crude as torture, merely a means of forcing those who wear many skins into their truest one."

He seems quite aware of his own capabilities and Real Dragon turned into a Fake Human does not fit at all.

Edit:

My mistake but he clearly believes Dragons are Dragons truly and not human, hence the whole Tiamat beast worshipping business when we first met him.

We know he knows how his ability works.

We know he believes Dragons are Dragons and not Humans.

So transformation effect to true form of something that is truly a Dragon = Human is wrong.

If he won't correct or discuss speculation with a social superior he's a bloody useless subordinate. I think we've proven beyond all doubt we have no need for yes men.

I'm speculating, but the caster level for Viserys' transformations is probably based off his character level given similar abilities exhibited by other creatures. There is no saving throw, just an opposed caster level check. It's another reason for Viserys to gain the Scintillating Scales spells, to change his Natural Armor bonus into a Deflection bonus. Melee Touch attacks would be far more difficult against him.

Malarys likely didn't have to roll at all, as Viserys was perfectly willing to allow him to test the extent of his powers. There was not even a hint of conceptual resistance.

"Could you force me from this shape?" you ask, a challenge, if a good-natured one.

Would be a pretty shitty challenge if he didn't resist.
 
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As Scribbler said

He seems quite aware of his own capabilities and Real Dragon turned into a Fake Human does not fit at all.

If he won't correct or discuss speculation with a social superior he's a bloody useless subordinate. I think we've proven beyond all doubt we have no need for yes men.

Would be a pretty shitty challenge if he didn't resist.

Even if Viserys did resist, his effective caster level was likely only 13, while Malarys' was 15 or 16, thanks to the +4 caster level bonus he gains from the Inquisitor Domain. That's pretty effective, but half of avoiding the effect is to not allow Melee Touch Attacks in the first place. Viserys instead volunteered.

All in all, a very useful ability, but situational and rare enough that I'm not going to stress about it being used against us.
 
Even if Viserys did resist, his effective caster level was likely only 13, while Malarys' was 15 or 16, thanks to the +4 caster level bonus he gains from the Inquisitor Domain. That's pretty effective, but half of avoiding the effect is to not allow Melee Touch Attacks in the first place. Viserys instead volunteered.

All in all, a very useful ability, but situational and rare enough that I'm not going to stress about it being used against us.
We also need to find out what Malarys worships/draws spells from now that Balerion is dead.
 
The former. Magic still existed when Valyria fell, though reduced. Dragons are not the only shapechangers in existence, so his personal experience with the ability would be with shapechangers who were not dragons, since it has been millennia since dragons with magic were around.

Remember that Dany is Malarys's social superior. He's not going to correct her speculation unless he knows it's wrong.
I understand what you meant now, but I still don't agree that Malarys would be likely to be mistaken (or even uncertain) about this. And Dany herself should have a good understanding of this - Malarys adequately explained that it forces the target "into its truest form" and she should know about dragons taking on human shapes from her dreams. Even if she doesn't Viserys has definitely dreamed about them so he should be able to spot her error.

Beyond that, it still doesn't make sense narratively for Dany's remark to be mistaken speculation. It seems unnecessarily confusing to the reader.
 
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Finding dragons in hiding sounds far more likely than forcing them into human shape.

Viserys does think of his assume form as "half form", and is usually human all the time, sans battle.
 
Blessing Volantene army?

How close to death does a god have to be to lack the divinatory ability to see how badly she is backing the wrong horse?
Right here:
Fire against Mist (Volantis): Tis said Sorrows burn with sorcerous flame as the armies of Volantis advances up the Rhoyne by day, but the stone men are a terror in the night, one the Unsullied are ill-suited to battling for there is need for more than obedience in this battle. Vaenys called the Swift, commander of the Volantine armies, has made a most unexpected decision in the face of this foe, one the likes of which has not been seen since the most desperate days of the Century of Blood. He has offered some of the slaves traveling with the army the Trial of Meraxes, for those who would dare the most perilous tasks, of searching and fighting for the foe, of burning out the nests of Stone Men through the tainted countryside he offers freedom. Many of his own officers called this folly thinking that the slaves would flee with whatever provisions they were given, but the young general scoffed saying that he would have to work long and hard to make the slaves suffer as much as the Heirs of Garin's Curse would. From what your sailors have been able to gather his tactics seem to be bearing fruit, though some say that may because of the tremendous amount of power the Mysterium has staked on the endeavor.
It might not be the blessings of Meraxes, but I'm pretty suspicious that it is.

I think the dead goddess just grasping onto any straws that she can grab.
 
Maybe valyrians had a different morality Scale?
Hopelessly foolish- good
Naive and easily trickable - neutral
A good, productive member of society - Evil (malarys?)
A bit eccentric, possibly rich- really Evil
Odd, ideal for magical research - ultra Evil.
Yeah, that Guy is just wrong - the root of all evil, where chaotic and lawful become meaningless

That way he could still be a inquisitor, representing the best value of his society while remaining Evil to everyone else.
 
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