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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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@DragonParadox Now that Lya has learned Greater Shadow Enchantment from Viserys, her spell loadout needs some adjustment.

I added Greater Shadow Enchantment as a 6th level spell and removed her other two 6th level spells in favor of shuffling a UF slot from her 3rd level Divine spells. I've slotted in Mass Aid in place of the freed up 3rd level Divine UF slot.

Combat Arcane Load-Out (Caster Level 11):
Level 0(4/day): Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Prestidigitation
Level 1(6/day): Heightened Awareness, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, True Strike
Level 2(6/day): Animalistic Power, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows, See Invisibility, Free Slot (UF)
Level 3(6/day): Alter Fortune, Dispel Magic, Great Thunderclap, Manyjaws, Slow, Free Slot (UF)
Level 4(4/day): Assay Spell Resistance, Celerity, Orb of Force, Free Slot (UF)
Level 5(3/day): Feeblemind, Teleport, Free Slot (UF)
Level 6(2/day): Greater Shadow Enchantment, Free Slot (UF)

Combat Divine Load-Out (Caster Level 9):
Level 0 (4/day): Light x2, No Light, Purify Food and Drink
Level 1(6/day): Bless, Command, Detect Evil, Moment of Greatness, Omen of Peril, Sunstroke
Level 2(5/day): Barkskin x2, Divine Insight, Lesser Restoration, Silence
Level 3(4/day): Alter Fortune, Heart of Water, Mass Aid, Thunderous Roar
Level 4(3/day): Heart of Earth, Panacea, Free Slot (UF)
Level 5(2/day): Control Winds, Owl's Insight
 
I would suggest the following title system for the mage estate:

Wisdom -> Catch all term for members of the estate.
Enchanter / Enchantress -> For people with crafting focus.
Thaumaturg -> For those with research focus.
Warlock -> For those with focus on battle. (It's flat out impossible to avoid using a class name at some point with how many types of casters D&D has.)

For those with CL 5 or more, prepend High. This is the maximum for NPCs and we need to get someone ranked above the rabble everywhere without having to hope there are enough PCs around.
After CL 10, you get Grand as a prefix.
From CL 15 on, it's Arch.

For those eligible for a prefix, but without a clear focus or strong expertise in every area, you use Mage.

So Lya becomes Arch-Mage at CL 15.
Leila, who is currently low level, would get Enchantress, with the option to become High Enchantress in a while.
Vee would be a Grand Warlock.
Teana gets High Thaumaturg and if she would get another level, would be promoted to Grand Thaumaturg.

Viserys is Dragon. End of story.
 
Azel said:
I would suggest the following title system for the mage estate:

Wisdom -> Catch all term for members of the estate.
Enchanter / Enchantress -> For people with crafting focus.
Thaumaturg -> For those with research focus.
Warlock -> For those with focus on battle. (It's flat out impossible to avoid using a class name at some point with how many types of casters D&D has.)

For those with CL 5 or more, prepend High. This is the maximum for NPCs and we need to get someone ranked above the rabble everywhere without having to hope there are enough PCs around.
After CL 10, you get Grand as a prefix.
From CL 15 on, it's Arch.

For those eligible for a prefix, but without a clear focus or strong expertise in every area, you use Mage.

So Lya becomes Arch-Mage at CL 15.
Leila, who is currently low level, would get Enchantress, with the option to become High Enchantress in a while.
Vee would be a Grand Warlock.
Teana gets High Thaumaturg and if she would get another level, would be promoted to Grand Thaumaturg.

Viserys is Dragon. End of story.
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I like Sage rather than Thaumaturge for a research focused caster.

And what about Warden rather than Warlock?
 
Azel said:
Ennobling mages is defeating the entire point of us redecorating the social order.

Giving them fancy titles to signify their membership in the estate of Mages is fine, but making everyone and their mother landed nobility is pointless.
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Who said anything about landed, the title just need to be recognized as a noble one.
 
Goldfish said:
I like Sage rather than Thaumaturge for a research focused caster.

And what about Warden rather than Warlock?
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I was actually thinking about making Sage the title for epic level casters, but then reconsidered when I noticed that people like that are usually known by name pretty much everywhere in the universe. I think it's a bit grand a title to give to a level 4 Archivist, even if the guy wouldn't get any prefixes. It also doesn't flow that well with Sage -> High Sage -> Arch-Sage

Warden sounds more like a druid title to me.
 
Duesal said:
Why not just War Mage? I'm pretty sure that's not a class, and the title is plenty specific.
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Because it sounds as if we didn't even try.

tarrangar said:
Who said anything about landed, the title just need to be recognized as a noble one.
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Then why make it noble in the first place? We have enshrined mages as their own social class in our constitution and the only real difference between them and nobles is the owning land part. Once you consider knights and unlanded nobles, the mages even get a sweeter deal.

It's just plain unnecessary with what we already did.
 
Azel said:
It's just plain unnecessary with what we already did.
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We need to have some sort of ceremony though. Remember, even out of those few westerosi who can read our Constitution, most won't, because they are dumb. Most of them probably haven't read Jaehaerys' laws, which are the basis of all westerosi law, let alone what we're going to introduce now.
 
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Duesal said:
Why not just War Mage? I'm pretty sure that's not a class, and the title is plenty specific.
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Because they would be used for much more than full on war. That should be a last resort, but calling them War Mages keeps that in the forefront of everyone's mind.

"Oh, shit, the War Mages are here. The Dragon must be planning to invade Avernus again!"

versus

"Oh, shit, the Wardens are here. You think they're here to deal with the Troll under the bridge?"
 
Asoiaf is pretty streamlined with the titles. Nobility is pretty much Knight -> Lord -> Lord Paramount -> King

I'm against any super convoluted scheme of differing ranks. That is a matter of prestige and doesn't need to be formalized. Ser Barristan Selmy, and Ser Dontos Hollard are both knights, but no one would dare suggest they are equal. Unless unique privileges are being granted, we don't need a new title.

I'm for a simple Mage->Wisdom->Archmage (head of school or higher) -> Sage (Head of entire Scholarium edifice...so Lya).

Basing it on OOC class levels is also...eh. It's why I was using known circles of magic, since it's something that can be known IC.
 
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065tdsa said:
We need to have some sort of ceremony though. Remember, even out of those westerosi who can read our Constitution, most won't, because they are dumb.
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That's a given. The constitution specifies mages as "those recognized as such by their peers", which will usually mean that you join a guild or other organisation and get inducted there with a lot of ceremony into the estate.

I'm thinking about something like a knighting ceremony when we do it ourselves.
 
Diomedon said:
Asoiaf is pretty streamlined with the titles. Nobility is pretty much Knight -> Lord -> Lord Paramount -> King

I'm against any super convoluted scheme of differing ranks. That is a matter of prestige and doesn't need to be formalized. Ser Barristan Selmy, and Ser Dontos Hollard are both knights, but no one would dare suggest they are equal. Unless unique privileges are being granted, we don't need a new title.

I'm for a simple Mage->Wisdom->Archmage (head of school or higher) -> Sage (Head of entire Scholarium edifice...so Lya).

Basing it on OOC class levels is also...eh. It's why I was using known circles of magic, since it's something that can be known IC.
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I agree. Actual caster level can be denoted via a badge or amulet of some sort, each one clearly showing which "circle" of spells they are capable of casting, in the same way Malarys told us he was a War Priest of the Sixth Circle.
 
Well, I like the name Warlock and separating them on their focus.

I only would say that we only need to have up to Grand, anyone that can cast above the fifth circle would earn his own titles.
 
Diomedon said:
Asoiaf is pretty streamlined with the titles. Nobility is pretty much Knight -> Lord -> Lord Paramount -> King

I'm against any super convoluted scheme of differing ranks. That is a matter of prestige and doesn't need to be formalized. Ser Barristan Selmy, and Ser Dontos Hollard are both knights, but no one would dare suggest they are equal. Unless unique privileges are being granted, we don't need a new title.

I'm for a simple Mage->Wisdom->Archmage (head of school or higher) -> Sage (Head of entire Scholarium edifice...so Lya).

Basing it on OOC class levels is also...eh. It's why I was using known circles of magic, since it's something that can be known IC.
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Thing is that spell levels are pretty different across some classes.

Furthermore, Knight isn't really a noble title of the Lord -> etc. line, since you can become Lord without having been a knight and can be a knight all your life without ever becoming a Lord. Knight is the odd one out that is based on deeds instead of birth like the other titles.

And I would really prefer to make a proper difference between researchers, war mages and crafters. You've said yourself that you want this to create little boxes for people to put casters in and speaking with Leila over the same things you spoke with Vee about is not going to go over that well. These two are vastly different aside from their respective power, much like how Stannis, Roose Bolton, Petyr Baelish, Gregor Clegane and Loras Tyrell are nothing alike.

Edit: Lastly, I want to give people a clean way to gauge how screwed they are when they annoy someone. Insulting the Grand Enchantress is probably not nearly as hazardous as getting on the High Warlocks nerves.
 
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Azel said:
Thing is that spell levels are pretty different across some classes.
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That's actually a good thing.

If someone sees a Knight (using whatever title we put in place for the highest among their Order) with the markings of a caster of the 6th circle, they're going to know they're probably dealing with a powerful magic user, but one who isn't a "full caster", while at the same time, seeing a Cleric (again using whatever title we decide on) with the markings of a caster of the 7th circle, they're going to know this person has the power to "reduce me to a greasy smear that will cost so much to Resurrect that even my wealthy father might balk at the expense".
 
Azel said:
Because it sounds as if we didn't even try.


Then why make it noble in the first place? We have enshrined mages as their own social class in our constitution and the only real difference between them and nobles is the owning land part. Once you consider knights and unlanded nobles, the mages even get a sweeter deal.

It's just plain unnecessary with what we already did.
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To make our future marriage to Lya slightly less of an issue with the Westerosi nobles, if Lya is a recognized noble by a process that we also ennoble others by, then marrying her is going to cause a bit less opposition.
 
tarrangar said:
To make our future marriage to Lya slightly less of an issue with the Westerosi nobles, if Lya is a recognized noble by a process that we also ennoble others by, then marrying her is going to cause a bit less opposition.
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I'm not at all willing to compromise our goals of social engineering just to make the unwashed morons in Westeros slightly less prissy at us.

They will have much, much, much bigger issues with us then being married to someone that isn't a noble in their books. Which is the core of the issue anyway. We can enoble people left and right, but Westeros won't care since it was not done by their rules.
You are trying to please people that we can't please about this.
 
I actually would prefer more stratification in our mage orders. Firstly, its added motivation to move up the ranks as it were. Secondly, because having Lord Glover have the same title as Lord Stark when both have wildly different levels of influence is where Martin's world building fell down, in my opinion.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
On the matter of CL: Practiced Spellcaster is a thing.
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It's more meant as a rough guideline anyway. It's only workable for Warlocks.

I wouldn't mind a Grand Thaumaturg with 5 NPC levels and 6 caster levels if he is sporting Knowledge: Arcana 15+.

You can be an accomplished researcher without direct spell power and a level 5 crafter would make a better Enchanter then a level 10 blast-sorc.
 
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