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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Writing the full thing. @Snowfire, @Diomedon, pick the parts you like.

[X] Plan Full Broadside
-[X] "He and others. I have seen the workings of the divine on my travels on many occasions, yet the truth is hardly comparable to the stories the priests tell."
-[X] "The Red God isn't speaking in metaphor when he claims all mankind as his slaves. Like the disgusting magistrates who keep their fellow man as chattel, he sees us as nothing more then servants who should work for his glory. He would rather bluster and play games with the lives of his followers then render aid upon them. If there is a difference between him and the Dukes of Hell, I've yet to see it."
-[X] "Others exist too. The Seven have their champions and it was the Old Gods might that brought new life to you. Yet I can't claim to worship them if that is what you think."
-[X] "The gods are not so different from man. They squabble with each other like bickering lords and care little for any man except a few selected 'champions' of their causes. And for all their mighty, they are not almighty. The games of court are played between them just as they are in Kings Landing and it is just the number and station of the pawns that are different. They might bluster like the Red God about being the one and only true gods, yet they can not claim souls that don't submit willingly to their judgement."
-[X] "Thus, few are those gods I feel any kinship to. Those who reward the deeds of man fairly and render aid in the fight against the creatures preying on us. They are all too rare and thus all the more important to know in these times."
-[X] "Other 'gods' are there, who wish nothing but ruin on us. It was the Drowned God who gave Damphair the might to commit the atrocities of Torturers Deep. People twisted in mind and body in his name. The innocent slain as food for the disgusting creatures in his service."
-[X] "And even of those who should be on our side, many do nothing. I have seen Devils spreading their taint in Westeros. I have seen the twisted creatures of the depth rising to harvest men like wheat. Meanwhile the Seven whip their septons into a frenzy to burn small-folk at the stake on the slightest suspicion of witchcraft. The realm is besieged by nightmares made flesh and they care only that there is no magic in the land that is not granted by them."
-[X] "On Tarth I slew a Devil who had come to kill a noble Lord. There I've met a young girl who had been graced by their blessings. Did she thank me for saving the live of that Lord? Or that of her own father who was present on that day and might have died himself? No. She lectured me that I should give up my foul arts, for they are unseemly in the eyes of her masters."
-[X] "The gods might be real, but to rely on their aid and wisdom is folly. It's man who will forge this world anew in the flames of this age. We decide our fates, not some uncaring god who proclaims himself benevolent and idly watches as his flock is beset by wolves. We have to turn back the coming darkness, by steel and sorcery, for it will be gods who will lead part of it and their brethren would rather busy themselves with sending the last two living men at each others throats then to save them. No divine grace from high above will deliver salvation to us. But we will claim it with our own might. The strength of man will achieve where the divine has failed, for we are many and if we just stand united, even divine might is nothing against us."
-[X] "I have heard the gods. I have seen the gods. I have spoken to their champions. I have fought their avatars. What I have learned from these things is simple. Respect the gods, for they are mighty, but do not fear them. For even gods can bleed."
 
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[X] The gods are real and their chosen walk the land.
-[X] Gods of evil, chaos, and madness but so will you find the servants of good, justice or even song.
-[X] Practically any creature of passion or reason can ignite a god, and without them it will wither.
-[X] Some are growing, some die, pantheons forgotten and remembered or changing over millennia or just wearing a mask.
-[X] But for their power so they are constrained, their very actions and thoughts are defined by their domain. In a way they cannot escape what they represent.
-[X] Which brings us to the the church of the seven, who claim that all magic must be under their control or be heretic.
-[X] I refuse to subjugate our wits, our will, our craft under a divine mandate, to wear the shackles of their obeisance.
-[X] To be their sheep and playthings, I can not accept. A man can choose.
-[X] The powers that design to take away that choice, to make a slaves of us all.
-[X] Be it through force, lies or suppression, I will fight till my last breath.


guys. my sleep schedule curses you.

edit: gaaah Azel. curse you. xD.
edit edit: kinda remarkably similar^^.
 
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*Squee*
[X] Azel
Screw the psychology, this is too awesome to be used only partially.
Ehh, nvm, apparently I can't even think coherently right now, so nighty-night everyone.
[X] Diomedon
 
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A lot of good lines in there for the follow up on The Seven and why we don't like them. I'm not sure about as an intro, though. I'll sift through a bit more thoroughly.

I also want to avoid outright saying outloud anything that could be understood as us saying all gods are our enemies. That seems to invite nothing good.
 
Diomedon said:
I also want to avoid outright saying outloud anything that could be understood as us saying all gods are our enemies. That seems to invite nothing good.
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well any gods that make themselves out to be the only god. or suppress all other gods. or mindfuck their supporters so badly to not believe anything else kinda are.
I think we verily believe in a well regulated "free market" of worship xD.
 
Diomedon said:
A lot of good lines in there for the follow up on The Seven and why we don't like them. I'm not sure about as an intro, though. I'll sift through a bit more thoroughly.

I also want to avoid outright saying outloud anything that could be understood as us saying all gods are our enemies. That seems to invite nothing good.
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Made it a bit more clear that I advocate to consort with gods who actually do shit when asked.

So far, only the neutral gods are really palatable to me. The Good ones are worthless layabouts or too busy with their pet issues to get anything done.
And as far as I'm concerned, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem.
 
Diomedon said:
A lot of good lines in there for the follow up on The Seven and why we don't like them. I'm not sure about as an intro, though. I'll sift through a bit more thoroughly.

I also want to avoid outright saying outloud anything that could be understood as us saying all gods are our enemies. That seems to invite nothing good.
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The message is not "all Gods are our enemies"

The message is "being a God does not absolve one from the consequence of being our enemy"

Too many bow to "Divine Will" out of hand regardless if that will is Right, Righteous or even Sane.
 
Diomedon said:
[X] True? No, for the Red God claims all as his slaves, yet many live their lives entire free from even hearsay of his existence. Does he exist? Yes, as do many, many other gods, some who are good, some who are bad.
-[X] The way I see it, a god is to men as a lord is to a hedge knight. Just like a lord, different gods have different domains and lands which are theirs, so it is unwise to disrespect them there, just like it would not be wise to speak ill of a lord on his own lands. But unless a hedge knight pledges himself to a lord, and is accepted into that lord's household, that lord has no special power over him, and similarly gods do not have special power over us unless we pledge ourselves to them. They cannot claim our souls, we can only hand them to them.
-[X] Just as lords differ, so too it seems that gods do. Some are greater, some are lesser, some accept certain types into their household, some others. Some are demanding and overbearing, like the Red God, and some have very few demands.
-[X] The place where that analogy breaks down is unlike having more than one Lord, one can worship more than one god, unless one of their demands is your sole worship. Full devotion is likely a surer route to favor, of course.
-[X] However, we are a king, so our place is a bit different than others. We have seen that god's interests can run counter to the good of men, and their judgement is not infallible, nor their power in the world unbeatable, so we cannot afford to shirk our duty and simply put our trust in gods. It will not be the gods who beat back the coming darkness, but the strength of mortals, through steel and sorcery.
-[X] While we do not serve gods, we have found favor with some gods, like the old gods of earth and steam and stone, and enmity with others whose demands and desires are dark, like the Drowned God of the Ironborn, who as far as we have seen, seems to see mankind as mere chattel for it's true servants in the deep.
-[X] If at any point Dany speaks up or interrupts, let her. She has spent more time studying and thinking on this than you.

Thoughts?
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Added some more fire taking inspiration from Azel. I think we'll get really fired up when we talk about the seven.
 
Tomcost said:
Nine Hells. They are Nine. Mephistopheles and Asmodeus themselves feel ignored otherwise.
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I know that. Rhaella doesn't.

We haven't explained planar cosmology to her yet. She's still going to think that there are Seven Hells, and that demons come from Hell, and that we're possibly damned to Hell because the Seven condemn sorcery.
 
I also made it clear that god's only have power over you in the afterlife if you let them, to nip that worry in the bud.
 
Duesal said:
I know that. Rhaella doesn't.

We haven't explained planar cosmology to her yet. She's still going to think that there are Seven Hells, and that demons come from Hell, and that we're possibly damned to Hell because the Seven condemn sorcery.
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High Septon: "By the might of the Seven! To the hells with you, vile Sorcerer Emperor!"
*Viserys is Plane Shifted*
High Septon: "See the might of our gods! Truly, the Sev--"
*Viserys pops back in with the severed head of a Pit Fiend slung over his shoulder*
Viserys: "That was not nice. You crashed this guys party."
*holds the head to the High Septon*
Viserys: "Apologize at least."
 
@Artemis1992, @Duesal, @ryuan, @Paradosi, @Massgamer, @dpara, Can I convince y'all to switch to my plan? I think it conveys the information without getting preachy, resorting to hyperbole, or getting too emotionally invested.

Let's just pass on the info to Rhaella in a concise manner, without attaching any value judgements. Rhaella might be quite a devout follower of the Seven, for all we know. We can save completely disillusioning her for later.
 
Sorry Goldfish I really don't like gods and blind worship. Though I would like to mention that not all gods are purely our enemy just those that are anathema to us. also I would prefer if we tell her there are nine hells. I would also hope plan full broadside that we do have allies in some gods.
[X] Plan Full Broadside
 
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I don't think Brianne was trying to be not-nice, just reach out to people who look like they are trying to stop the monsters to try and do it in a better way.

Or something like that.

We should save the antagonism for those who are older and do such or, more importantly, have a few spell levels under their belt.

Also:
"Yet that begged the question, to she who had been raised and lived at court, if all this was what they thought prudent to say, what was being hidden?"

We could mention that the obvious gaps in our tales are mainly so she can get a chance to learn the broad strokes of our lives, while not getting taken off track by having to wrangle with all of the implications. Remind her that we will tell her everything that is ours to tell, but three years can not be adaquetly covered in anything approaching a short time frame
 
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Alright then, let's do this.

[X] Divine Complications
-[X] "I'd hoped that you might not ask that question, that there would be time for you to process the existence of magic before you asked of the divines." A sigh, then a faint, wistful smile. "I need to ask you something first, mother. Are you sure you want me to answer you now? You know that the world has changed, and," it was hard to admit, "I know you can tell what I've been doing to try and help you adapt to it. But if I answer you, you can't unask that question. Are you sure?" This isn't meant to discourage her, that's the absolute opposite of the tone I want. This is simply to ensure that she understands the importance of the question, before we answer it. Honestly, I'm expecting a yes, but that we've asked is likely to help. It will prepare her a little, at least. A thought - this might be better said by Dany than Viserys.
-[X] "R'hllor truly exists, as do many other gods and goddesses. I've seen the workings of the divine on my travels on many occasions, yet the truth is rarely comparable to the stories the priests tell."
-[X] "The Red God doesn't speak in metaphor when he claims all mankind as his slaves, but there are those who live their entire lives free from any mention of his name. Those we call gods are neither omniscient nor omnipresent, but they are vastly powerful and beyond the reckonings of most mortals, as a dragon would be to a common ground squirrel."
-[X] "And yet they need us, in a way, far more than we need them. Gods cannot live without mortal worship and faith, but equally they cannot demand it. Their ability to influence the world is limited by strength of their faithful, and their champions. R'hllor has his, the Seven have theirs, and the Old Gods too claim some as their emissaries to the world. It was their power that brought new life to you. Yet I can't claim to worship them."
-[X] "The gods are not so different from man. Games of court and power are played between them just as in King Landing, it is only the board that changes. Many claim to be the one and only true god, but none can claim the soul of those that do not submit willingly to their judgement. To put it another way, a god or pantheon is to men what a Lord is to a hedge knight. But as a king, I have a duty to my people. And my journey has led me to a different relationship with those who reward the deeds of man fairly and render aid in the fight against the creatures that prey upon them." Simple strokes of our own viewpoint and experiences. In simple terms, religion = feudalism. Speak these words carefully, but with passion. This is what we believe, after all.
-[X] "It was the Drowned God who gave Damphair the might to commit the atrocities I spoke of during the taking to Torturer's Deep. By all I have seen of his works, he is an enemy to not just me but all wholesome, thinking creatures. And yet he is opposed, and much of what his servant wrought has been undone with the aid of the Merling King and his own chosen." Hammer the duality button, show that there is good too despite the bad.
-[X] "I have fought demons, in the East and in Westeros, and yet the the Seven would judge me as a damned soul for the sorcery that has saved thousands. Their hatred of magic," shake your head and stop."
-[X] "On Tarth, I slew one that sought to kill a noble Lord as I treated with him. There, I met a young girl graced with the blessings of the Seven, and yet she did not thank me for saving the life of that Lord, or even her own father who had been present and could have died himself. She told me I should forsake the arts that had saved them, for they are unseemly in the eyes of her masters." Shot across the bow of the Seven, I can't really see us avoiding this even if we voted not to. It's Viserys, after all.
-[X] "The gods are real, but I cannot find it in myself to surrender the fate of my people to them. Some are true and just in their workings. They seek to aid those who worship them, and give them the tools to survive the darkness that rises alongside the light of magic. Some are not, for as the tallest candle illuminates the widest space, it also casts the longest shadow. But we are not beholden to any of them. If you do not worship a god, then it holds precious little power over you. You may acknowledge their existence freely, but to do so in no way obligates you to venerate them." Hammer. Down. On. Duality. There are Gods that we acknowledge as good, as those we support if not worship, just as there are those we would name as an enemy. Don't be quite that blunt, but if she wants us to answer this fully we need to come as close to doing so as we have since her resurrection.
-[X] If at any point Dany speaks up or interrupts, let her. She has spent more time studying and thinking on this than you.

Thanks to @Goldfish, @Diomedon, @Azel and others for all the parts that went into this. I'm trying to draw together the many different pieces of our own view of the divines, and relate them in a way (and with examples) that will allow Rhaella to process them without snapping. Full Broadside is a bit much imo (no offence meant, Your Infernalness :p) but I think we do need some emotion here. If only to give our mother context.
 
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I feel like Azel's plan is trying to spike the ball before it's been set. Ugh, this is why I don't like votecrafting, I don't do the explaining and convincing step half as well when it's my own plan.

Edit: And ninja-ed by new plan.
 
[X] Snowfire

Works for me. This is a topic that needs some Fire and Brimstone.

Better give her an ugly pill now then in a few weeks, when we would have to awkwardly tell her that there is a reason we've never built a grand sept in SD.
 
Ya know, do we actually know if there are 9 Hells currently?

We know the Celestial Planes are out of whack and the Devils were Celestials if my D&D lore is correct, maybe there are actually seven Hells.
 
Snowfire said:
Alright then, let's do this.

[X] Divine Complications
-[X] "I'd hoped that you might not ask that question, that there would be time for you to process the existence of magic before you asked of the divines." A sigh, then a faint, wistful smile. "I need to ask you something first, mother. Are you sure you want me to answer you? You know that the world has changed, and," it was hard to admit, "I know you can tell what I've been doing to try and help you adapt to it. But if I answer you, you can't unask that question. Are you sure?" This isn't meant to discourage her, that's the absolute opposite of the tone I want. This is simply to ensure that she understands the importance of the question, before we answer it. Honestly, I'm expecting a yes, but that we've asked is likely to help. It will prepare her a little, at least.
-[X] "R'hllor truly exists, as do many other gods and goddesses. I've seen the workings of the divine on my travels on many occasions, yet the truth is rarely comparable to the stories the priests tell."
-[X] "The Red God doesn't speak in metaphor when he claims all mankind as his slaves, but there are those who live their entire lives free from any mention of his name. Those we call gods are neither omniscient nor omnipresent, but they are vastly powerful and beyond the reckonings of most mortals, as a dragon would be to a common ground squirrel."
-[X] "And yet they need us, in a way, far more than we need them. Gods cannot live without mortal worship and faith, but equally they cannot demand it. Their ability to influence the world is limited by strength of their faithful, and their champions. R'hllor has his, the Seven have theirs, and the Old Gods too claim some as their emissaries to the world. It was their power that brought new life to you. Yet I can't claim to worship them."
-[X] "The gods are not so different from man. Games of court and power are played between them just as in King Landing, it is only the board that changes. Many claim to be the one and only true god, but none can claim the soul of those that do not submit willingly to their judgement. To put it another way, a god or pantheon is to men what a Lord is to a hedge knight. But as a king, I have a duty to my people. And my journey has led me to a different relationship with those who reward the deeds of man fairly and render aid in the fight against the creatures that prey upon them." Simple strokes of our own viewpoint and experiences. Speak these carefully, but with passion. This is what we believe, after all.
-[X] "It was the Drowned God who gave Damphair the might to commit the atrocities I spoke of during the taking to Torturer's Deep. By all I have seen of his works, he is an enemy to not just me but all wholesome, thinking creatures. And yet he is opposed, and much of what his servant wrought has been undone with the aid of the Merling King and his own chosen." Hammer the duality button, show that there is good too despite the bad.
-[X] "I have fought demons, in the East and in Westeros, and yet the the Seven would judge me as a damned soul for the sorcery that has saved thousands. Their hatred of magic," shake your head and stop."
-[X] "On Tarth, I slew one that sought to kill a noble Lord as I treated with him. There, I met a young girl graced with the blessings of the Seven, and yet she did not thank me for saving the life of that Lord, or even her own father who had been present and could have died himself. She told me I should forsake the arts that had saved them, for they are unseemly in the eyes of her masters." Shot across the bow of the Seven, I can't really see us avoiding this even if we voted not to. It's Viserys, after all.
-[X] "The gods are real, but I cannot find it in myself to surrender the fate of my people to them. Some are true and just in their workings. They seek to aid those who worship them, and give them the tools to survive the darkness that rises alongside the light of magic. Some are not, for as the tallest candle illuminates the widest space, it also casts the longest shadow. But we are not beholden to any of them. If you do not worship a god, then it holds precious little power over you. You may acknowledge their existence freely, but to do so in no way obligates you to venerate them.
-[X] If at any point Dany speaks up or interrupts, let her. She has spent more time studying and thinking on this than you.

Thanks to @Goldfish, @Diomedon, @Azel and others for all the parts that went into this. I'm trying to draw together the many different pieces of our own view of the divines, and relate them in a way (and with examples) that will allow Rhaella to process them without snapping. Full Broadside is a bit much imo (no offence meant, Your Infernalness :p) but I think we do need some emotion here. If only to give our mother context.
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I appreciate your attempt to bring all of the plans together, but I don't think we should turn this issue into another excuse for a massive info dump or chance to further detail our exploits.

Rhaella is dealing with quite enough on her plate at the moment.
 
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