A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[tarrangar]

Maybe we should ask Bloodraven to clarify how much counts as 'humbling' the Seven, because I'm pretty sure you need to humiliate them Ten Plagues of Egypt style before the message sinks in.

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We don't need to actually make them humble, what we need to do is hurt them enough that the angry parts of the old gods calm down.

Let me make this clear, I'm not blaming Brienne herself since she's just a child who grew up in this religion and was suddenly validated by her gods. But that being said, the views she expressed on magic are the views of her gods. She might as well have been speaking for the Seven in that case.

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And I'm saying we don't know how much of that stance is their stance, and how much of that stance is a distrust of sorcery, being warped into something more during the time where the gods were unable to communicate.

There's massive corruption in the church of the Seven as well, which is not something they approve either, it makes sense that some of their tenets, have also been warped to being more severe than they used to be.

EDIT: And I desire to kill the Seven, but ultimately I'm with Azel on this. I want to be top dog in this situation. If the Seven can't live with that then we'll happily oblige. If they can accept it then they can live in subservience.

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I don't particularly want to be top dog, I wont accept being subservient to them, but they are gods simply accepting each others presence is enough for me.

 

[Goldfish]

Truth be told, becoming King Beyond The Wall is probably easy for us and just time consuming. The Free Folk respects strength, so walking up and beating up the chief is a viable approach. The strongest actors up here are our allies the Old Gods and our sworn enemies the Others.

So it's mostly a matter of investing a month to do it and fighting a few CR appropriate enemies.

If we can get Jeor Mormont on our side, we could get an actual peace going here. The Others are active enough to be the common enemy for them to unite against way ahead of schdule.

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Becoming King Beyond the Wall would be a massive time sink, and far more trouble than it's worth. What benefit could it possibly have this early, that would outweigh the time investment?

Traveling above the Wall will always be "slow", as in we'll be wasting days of time just in transit, even using Phantom Steeds, personal flight, or the Wind Walk spell.

 

[Azel]

My main idea behind becoming KbtW would be to get the Free Folk and the Watch to work with each other. Not to integrate them into our kingdom right now.

 

[Duesal]

I don't particularly want to be top dog, I wont accept being subservient to them, but they are gods simply accepting each others presence is enough for me.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If killing them ever comes up as an option, perhaps sacrificing them to Yss or something, I'd definitely go for it.

Traveling above the Wall will always be "slow", as in we'll be wasting days of time just in transit, even using Phantom Steeds, personal flight, or the Wind Walk spell.

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At least DP allowed us to have the Phantom Steeds go 60 mph.

Becoming King Beyond the Wall would be a massive time sink, and far more trouble than it's worth. What benefit could it possibly have this early, that would outweigh the time investment?

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My main idea behind becoming KbtW would be to get the Free Folk and the Watch to work with each other. Not to integrate them into our kingdom right now.

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This would be better. Brokering a peace between the Night's Watch and the Free Folk would work wonders. Hell, it might even help integrate the Free Folk into our empire if they get used to following the dragon early on.

Potential diplomacy mission in the next few turns? It could double as looting the giants.

 

[Artemis1992]

My main idea behind becoming KbtW would be to get the Free Folk and the Watch to work with each other. Not to integrate them into our kingdom right now.

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That still keeps the problem of having to keep them together under one king, or some tribe, let's call it the tribe of Jonny Aurane, will think that edict doesn't count for them and still go over the Wall to plunder a bit and obviously kill any crows trying to stop them. And the majority of the Free Folk will see little reason to stop them.

So we'd still have to be there much of the time and beat down Jonny Aurane anytime he gets a stupid idea.
Also the Free Folk would expect some kind of help or protection to obey, propably, so we'd have to have someone hunt the more problematic forest-spirits and undead up north constantly.

The only way I could see that work is permanently leaving a PC North of the Wall who has the right combination of diplomacy and head-bashing ability to keep the tribes together and who can go and solve supernatural problems here.
So far I think only Dany, Viserys and Tyene qualify for that and we can't spare those permanently.

 

[Crake]

What we need to do, unfortunately, is indeed find someone who could viably unite the tribes under someone reasonable, skilled and respectable enough as a person that we're not constantly filled with the urge to immolate them when they decide to adopt an attitude about something.

Unfortunately, these are savages. The only halfway respectable leader-like figure north of the Wall is Mance Rayder, and he's a NW deserter. Now, pragmatism says the NW could be expected to deal with him in good faith, however their distaste for him, if we nudge them into doing it citing the threats everyone is facing in the North, but we'd still have to pop north to mediate disputes, because mediation between Mance and the NW won't go smoothly.

It wouldn't go smoothly with an other KBtW who was a Wildling, either.

Getting the people north of the wall away from Beyond the Wall is really the only clean solution to all of this, because we can then proceed to civilize them at our leisure.

Immolating groups of the extremely reticient during the initital phase of that would cut down on a lot of wasted effort talking to savages who won't ever learn, too.

 

[egoo]

To be frank, I'm not keen on dealing with wildlings at all.
Giants? Sure, it seems they can be persuaded and/or controlled, mayhaps even made a part of society.
But not wildlings, too much time and effort for almost no returns.

 

[Duesal]

To be frank, I'm not keen on dealing with wildlings at all.
Giants? Sure, it seems they can be persuaded and/or controlled, mayhaps even made a part of society.
But not wildlings, too much time and effort for almost no returns.

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@egoo, I'm actually with you on that, but there's one return. It's literally the only reason I'm considering dealing with them at all.

If nothing else, we've got to get them out of the lands Beyond the Wall so that we're not just giving the Others more bodies for their undead armies. Beyond that the thread can do with them as they please, I certainly have no interest in wasting too much time trying to beat some order and civilization into their heads.

 

[Crake]

We'll probably have to. They won't just sit back and let the Others add them to their army of the dead, and the Horn of Winter is still out there. And with more magic users than in canon, they could credibly threaten the NW and reinforcements sent by the Starks to hold the Wall, if they play it cleverly.

Having Jeor and Ned talk to their leaders and forcing them to kneel might be an option, but it'd probably necessitate lots of open intervention and nudging and cajoling on our part.

 

[Paradosi]

[X] Send Harwoord ahead to call for parley.
-[X] Viserys, Richard, and Dany will accompany him, while hidden under Invisibility spells.

 

[Azel]

That still keeps the problem of having to keep them together under one king, or some tribe, let's call it the tribe of Jonny Aurane, will think that edict doesn't count for them and still go over the Wall to plunder a bit and obviously kill any crows trying to stop them. And the majority of the Free Folk will see little reason to stop them.

So we'd still have to be there much of the time and beat down Jonny Aurane anytime he gets a stupid idea.
Also the Free Folk would expect some kind of help or protection to obey, propably, so we'd have to have someone hunt the more problematic forest-spirits and undead up north constantly.

The only way I could see that work is permanently leaving a PC North of the Wall who has the right combination of diplomacy and head-bashing ability to keep the tribes together and who can go and solve supernatural problems here.
So far I think only Dany, Viserys and Tyene qualify for that and we can't spare those permanently.

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I doubt that Jonny Aurane would survive his first bout of stupidity in our presence. The nice thing about the Free Folk is that they don't care if we set idiots on fire.

While you are right in that we need some figurehead to rally around, I think we could find a suitable candidate among them.

But all of that is for after the Three Daughters at the earliest anyway. Nothing I want to spend time on right now.

 

[Duesal]

I doubt that Jonny Aurane would survive his first bout of stupidity in our presence. The nice thing about the Free Folk is that they don't care if we set idiots on fire.

While you are right in that we need some figurehead to rally around, I think we could find a suitable candidate among them.

But all of that is for after the Three Daughters at the earliest anyway. Nothing I want to spend time on right now.

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Hmmm....

@Azel, we find a baby PC from Beyond the Wall, take him to Sorcerer's Deep, have Ser Richard train him as a fighter and Tyene beat politics into his head, then give him a bit of gear, kick him back over the Wall, and tell him to get to work?

I would have either suggested Maelor (lol) or one of our baby PCs, but they'd get automatic disrespect for being Southrons and not being dragons.

 

[Artemis1992]

I doubt that Jonny Aurane would survive his first bout of stupidity in our presence. The nice thing about the Free Folk is that they don't care if we set idiots on fire.

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The impression I got from the Wildlings is that nearly every tribe has a few Jonny Auranes and that these guys have a tendency to end up in leadership-positions.

It will take many interventions until the are all ashes.

 

[Paradosi]

The Free Folk as a whole value strength above all. It's not about "civilizing" them, or teaching them manners, it's about having the bigger/biggest stick. We've that in spades.

 

[Duesal]

The Free Folk as a whole value strength above all. It's not about "civilizing" them, or teaching them manners, it's about having the bigger/biggest stick. We've that in spades.

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That's all well and good when you don't care where they end up, but if there's any talk of them joining our empire or living among our people I want them civilized. I don't want incidents of wilding savages stealing women from their homes within our lands, nor raiding or murdering in the streets. A good deal of their culture has got to go if we ever let them in.

 

[Artemis1992]

The Free Folk as a whole value strength above all. It's not about "civilizing" them, or teaching them manners, it's about having the bigger/biggest stick. We've that in spades.

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The bigger stick actually has to be around, or they quickly forget to respect it.

Either we leave someone with a bigger stick with them, or constantly have to come over and remind them.

 

[egoo]

So, all in all, they're not worth it
Heck, even exterminating them all will be more useful in the long run

 

[Azel]

That's all well and good when you don't care where they end up, but if there's any talk of them joining our empire or living among our people I want them civilized. I don't want incidents of wilding savages stealing women from their homes within our lands, nor raiding or murdering in the streets. A good deal of their culture has got to go if we ever let them in.

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By the time we take them in, we can spread them through a large empire. You can murder a culture pretty easily that way.

 

[Paradosi]

That's all well and good when you don't care where they end up, but if there's any talk of them joining our empire or living among our people I want them civilized. I don't want incidents of wilding savages stealing women from their homes within our lands, nor raiding or murdering in the streets. A good deal of their culture has got to go if we ever let them in.

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Wildlings are still human, and as such they have a self-preservation instinct. It's silly to expect them to continue going full retard, when they've concrete example that to do that is to basically gut yourself. Sure, there's probably some who are legitimately batshit and/or suicidal, but they're already shunned by the majority of the wildlings. Seriously, who exactly is fond of the batshit crazy cannibals?

The bigger stick actually has to be around, or they quickly forget to respect it.

Either we leave someone with a bigger stick with them, or constantly have to come over and remind them.

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Why? If there is concrete evidence that acting like a complete retard gets you burninated, then it's just a matter of time until the realization gets through to them. The wildlings are human, they're not some automatons that will continue to do the same thing over and over again, just because they're programmed to do so. The instinct for self-preservation will win out, and to those few who are too far gone, well, they'll be shunned as they are now.

If there's one thing the wildlings understand, it's survival. There wouldn't be any wildlings at all if they didn't know how to put sense above all in the midst of a several years long winter.

 

[Duesal]

So, all in all, they're not worth it
Heck, even exterminating them all will be more useful in the long run

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Party drama for slaying the innocent women and children. And potential depression for Dany and Viserys. Very much not worth it.

By the time we take them in, we can spread them through a large empire. You can murder a culture pretty easily that way.

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Right, that. I forgot we already had a plan in place to utterly crush their culture.

Anyway, regarding the baby PC we're plucking from the Wildlings, I'd say we're looking for a young-ish baby PC from 14-17, preferrably melee-based so that Ser Richard can power-train them, and since we're training them to be our puppet ruler to keep the Wildlings in line they cannot be stupid. Tyene has to be able to train them somehow. While she won't know Beyond the Wall politics, she can still teach politics in general. How to lie, how to know when someone else is lying or ferret out when they have a plot to kill you, etc. Hell, for Beyond the Wall politics, we could ask Bloodraven to teach our puppet whatever he needs to know.

Wildlings are still human, and as such they have a self-preservation instinct. It's silly to expect them to continue going full retard, when they've concrete example that to do that is to basically gut yourself. Sure, there's probably some who are legitimately batshit and/or suicidal, but they're already shunned by the majority of the wildlings. Seriously, who exactly is fond of batshit crazy cannibals?

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I honestly don't expect much of them at all. I'm expecting a good chunk of them to go full retard before the message finally sinks in, and by then they'll have hurt and pissed off a good number of our law-abiding citizens.

 

[Paradosi]

I honestly don't expect much of them at all. I'm expecting a good chunk of them to go full retard before the message finally sinks in, and by then they'll have hurt and pissed off a good number of our law-abiding citizens.

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Are the wildlings such an OCP? We rule over pirates, rogues and thieves, and if they can be taught that to go full retard is a big no-no, then so can the wildlings. It's not like all the wildlings are berserk cannibals with no sense, there's plenty of women, children, or men who just want to provide for their families and survive.

These are humans, they have the same instincts that humans in general have, the same hopes and dreams, even if their hopes and dreams are generally just "survive the winter".

 

[Azel]

Indeed. You guys act as if the Free Folk where some kind of Fey who can only be Chaotic Stupid.

 

[Duesal]

Are the wildlings such an OCP? We rule over pirates, rogues and thieves, and if they can be taught that to go full retard is a big no-no, then so can the wildlings. It's not like all the wildlings are berserk cannibals with no sense, there's plenty of women, children, or men who just want to provide for their families and survive.

These are humans, they have the same instincts that humans in general have, the same hopes and dreams, even if their hopes and dreams are generally just "survive the winter".

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Indeed. You guys act as if the Free Folk where some kind of Fey who can only be Chaotic Stupid.

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I just have no faith in them as a culture. As humans who want to survive, sure. Women and children, perfect--see Gilly. But as a people whose cultural values are along the same lines as the Dothraki? I am fully expecting stupid shit.

 

[Artemis1992]

Indeed. You guys act as if the Free Folk where some kind of Fey who can only be Chaotic Stupid.

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Their entire culture is build on Chaotic Stupid.

Yes, we can overcome that with mass-resettlements, but while keeping them in their own territory, under leaders from their own culture that will be damn difficult to break out of and take far to many burnininations to be comfortable for anyone involved.

 

[Duesal]

@Azel @Paradosi
Look at this:

About the rest of the wildlings the men of Eastwatch know considerably less than they do of the crab-men, though you still more than you could have learned from books. For one they hate being called that and think of themselves as Free Folk, that is people who will kneel to no man and follow only the one who proves strength to them. From the fact that there have been propper Kings Beyond the Wall before, you guess that does not mean that the leader has to personally wrestle into the ground each and every one of his followers whenever the mood strikes them... Still, it sounds like a maddening 'system' almost designed to keep the poor bastards in squalor, killing and stealing from each other as much as the Watch more often than trading and living in peace. Dany calls it 'living like wolves in the woods,' shaking her head sadly at the same waste.

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And tell me that we'll have no problems from taking in people that were raised in this culture. This is the definition of Chaotic Stupid.

I'm not saying we shouldn't--we need to deny the Others their corpses, and breaking them up into small groups spread across the empire is a very effective way of crushing their culture--but to say that of course they'd be rational and wouldn't do anything too stupid flies in the face of everything we know about them. There will be quite a few incidents before things settle down.