At the end of the day I can think of three forms of D&D 'adventuring' that would work:
  1. Big Narrative Inflection events (i.e. God punching ). These have to be used sparingly
  2. Ambush and enemy action (I have some plans in that direction and even asked @Artemis1992 for some characters). I would really like to use them because your enemies have been really passive over the years
  3. Vacation, go there punch that, get the prize, have fin character moments
 
I think the ruling for CK2 type games on this site is that there is only ever as much numbercrunch and biggatons as the DM can personally manage.

If DP's quotient for that is pretty small, the quest's carryon bag for all its baggage should be very small too.
Can confirm. Quest death due to too much mechanics is a massive threat.
 
If we want to keep the current "flavor," IMO the best thing is to have our Imperium actions focus on defending against the Deep Ones + God-Research while Viserys & Co do some occasional delving into Valyria looking for cool loot and ways to harm the Fifteenth when our God-research starts to pay off.
Valyria is definitely a place where we want to rely on stealth and not big armies (if only because IIRC "getting noticed"causes massive all-destroying anti-magic SoTD affects) so if we want a few adventures we can have them there.

Otherwise, I suggest a timeskip, a dramatic decrease in D&D stuff, or perhaps a new quest entirely focusing on someone else.
 
The first proper one, the fire elemental whose name I cannot quite recall?

It's a Harginn.

Because I for one take zero enjoyment from seeing Viserys effortlessly roflstomping everything around him

Well, I don't speak for anyone else, but I do.


Azel is quite on-point with us having no direction.

There is. The Long Night. Everything that we are doing is for that final fight.

To get speed things up though, we still have the War of the Three Spheres, the Deep Ones, and whatever Lloth is concocting in the Underdark.

At the end of the day I can think of three forms of D&D 'adventuring' that would work:
  1. Big Narrative Inflection events (i.e. God punching ). These have to be used sparingly
  2. Ambush and enemy action (I have some plans in that direction and even asked @Artemis1992 for some characters). I would really like to use them because your enemies have been really passive over the years
  3. Vacation, go there punch that, get the prize, have fin character moments

If sprinkled between all the governing stuff, I don't see why it's such a problem that we need to get rid of it completely.
 
If we want to keep the current "flavor," IMO the best thing is to have our Imperium actions focus on defending against the Deep Ones + God-Research while Viserys & Co do some occasional delving into Valyria looking for cool loot and ways to harm the Fifteenth when our God-research starts to pay off.
Valyria is definitely a place where we want to rely on stealth and not big armies (if only because IIRC "getting noticed"causes massive all-destroying anti-magic SoTD affects) so if we want a few adventures we can have them there.

Otherwise, I suggest a timeskip, a dramatic decrease in D&D stuff, or perhaps a new quest entirely focusing on someone else.

I don't think I would have the heart for a significant timeskip, it would feel too much like abandoning characters to the depths of 'yada yada and then this happens'.

It was fun, but now it's all been there done that.

@DragonParadox
I agree that it is propably time to let the D&D part die. It was fun making charsheets and for my own enjoyment at least I hope a few of them might be useful in defining the narrative characters they would become (though most will certainly fall below abstraction).

But despite that, I don't think we should bother with them anymore. Fights below Viserys size are not relevant and fights at Viserys size turn into a game that Goldfish has won each of the many dozen times he played it, with no reasonable chance of that changing.
Okay, I'll miss that aspect of the quest, but I can deal.

I keep hearing stuff like that and it really does not make me want to carry on. It feels, perhaps irrationally like I'm taking people's fun away from them
 
If sprinkled between all the governing stuff, I don't see why it's such a problem that we need to get rid of it completely.

Ideally, ideally that is what I would like to do. I cannot beat you guys when it comes to a fight you come prepared for, and with the action economy through the roof, but I might, might be able to give a challenge when it comes to peril unbidden.
 
Ideally, ideally that is what I would like to do. I cannot beat you guys when it comes to a fight you come prepared for, and with the action economy through the roof, but I might, might be able to give a challenge when it comes to peril unbidden.
That's more an issue of you lacking the... killer instinct so to speak. Anyone capable of going 1 vs 1 with Viserys could easily trim down the numbers by killing a ton of B-List characters with a single AoE attack. And then there are focused builds that intentionally using high-octane gouda, like my Aerys design.

I've designed encounters with you. Trust me. It's not going to change just because you get the surprise round.
 
For what its worth as a guy that just recently joined this quest, I say a shift in direction, towards Empire-building or otherwise would be welcomed. The adventuring was fun and all but I always saw it, even from the very beginning as a setting of foundations for the eventual creation of the Empire and retaking of Westeros which we have now accomplished.
 
That's more an issue of you lacking the... killer instinct so to speak. Anyone capable of going 1 vs 1 with Viserys could easily trim down the numbers by killing a ton of B-List characters with a single AoE attack. And then there are focused builds that intentionally using high-octane gouda, like my Aerys design.

I've designed encounters with you. Trust me. It's not going to change just because you get the surprise round.

I'm not really aiming assassins at Viserys and that is all I can say without spoilers

Anyway here is ye old Kings of Men combat system for d100s so we can actually discuss something instead of just drowning in problems. Suggestions and ideas are more than welcome. The examples are all Warhammer because it is just C&P but it should hopefully be clear enough:

Combat system

When a unit attacks another the advantage difference between the units will impose a modifier on a 1d100:

+10 advantages: Massive damage caused destruction or rout guaranteed barring special circumstances
+9 advantages: Roll twice take the higher value +125
+8 advantages: Roll twice take the higher value +100
+7 advantages: Roll twice take the higher value +80
+6 advantages: Roll twice take the higher value +60
+5 advantages: Roll twice take the higher value +45
+4 advantages: +45
+3 advantages: +30
+2 advantages: +20
+1 advantages: +10
No advantage: +0
-1 advantages: -10
-2 advantages: -20
-3 advantages: -30
-4 advantages: -45
-5 advantages: Roll twice take the lower value -45
-6 advantages: Roll twice take the lower value -60
-7 advantages: Roll twice take the lower value -80
-8 advantages: Roll twice take the lower value -100
-9 advantages: Roll twice take the lower value -125
-10 advantages: No damage caused barring special circumstances

What gives advantages:

A) The comparative attack and defense tiers of the units engaged in combat:

Tiers of military capability :
  1. Horrendous
  2. Low
  3. Bad
  4. Inferior
  5. Medium
  6. Superior
  7. Good
  8. High
  9. Extraordinary
  10. Legendary
  11. Mythical
-for instance a unit with Medium attack engaged with one with Horrendous defense would have +4 advantages and thus a +45 all other things being equal-

B) Strength in numbers:
  1. 5 to 1: +7 advantages
  2. 4 to 1: +5 advantages
  3. 3 to 1: +3 advantages
  4. 2 to 1: +2 advantages
  5. 1.2 to 1: +1 advantage
  6. 1 to 1: no advantages
  7. 1 to 1.2: -1 advantage
  8. 1 to 2: -2 advantages
  9. 1 to 3: -3 advantages
  10. 1 to 4: -5 advantages
  11. 1 to 5: -7 advantages
Note one: Getting to use odds of 5 to 1 or above in any single clash is impossible barring special circumstances. Indeed the use of disciplined formations and terrain features can make leveraging even lesser numeric superiority impossible however it is possible to swarm an enemy (see below).

Note two: Constant attrition against fresh enemies can grind down an army's advantages of quality or positioning. Advantages can be lost to fatigue after the first three clashes in quick succession. The rate at which they are lost depends on the results of the rolls themselves as well as the endurance of the outnumbered troops (Grinding dwarfs down for example is very difficult indeed)

C) Positioning:

Flanking grants +3 advantages with even more given to troops with the ability to charge like cavalry, monstrous cavalry or monsters.
Attacking the rear of an army works the same as flanking except the base value is +5 advantages.

D) The impact of Martial skill:
  1. Commander of considerably less than base human norm (0 to 4): -3 advantages
  2. Commander of less than base human norm (5 to 9): -1 advantages
  3. Commanders of exactly base human norm (10): no advantage
  4. Commanders of more than base human norm (11 to 15): +1 advantages
  5. Commanders of considerably more than base human norm (16 to 20): +2 advantages
  6. Commanders of extraordinary skill relative to the base human norm (21 to 24): +3 advantages
  7. Commanders of peek human skill (25 to 30): +4 advantages
  8. Commanders of a skill that transcends human limits (31 to 34): +5 advantages
  9. Commanders of a skill that greatly transcends human limits (35 to 40): +7 advantages
  10. Commanders of demigod skill (41 to 44): + 9 advantages
  11. Commanders of greater demigod skill (45 to 49): + 11 advantages
Note Three: The full bonus always applies to whatever unit the commander is personally in charge of. Leveraging the higher levels of expertise for the entire army requires ever more complex levels of communication with demigod level bonuses and above being impossible to apply though purely mundane means. Examples of extraordinary communication include Daemonic communion, necromantic or other forms of magical control.

Morale:

A unit will take a morale test if the beings fighting within it have been flanked attacked from the rear or can sense that the battle is turning against them. Sufficiently powerful fear or terror effects can also induce a morale check.

Circumstantial bonuses:

Things like the strength of the Waagh effect, the grim determination of the dwarfs, the fanaticism of the Lizardmen and the crazed zeal of Chaos worshipers can add modifiers to both attack and morale rolls as will more mundane things like experience.

Ranged combat:

Ranged combat benefits from only half of the advantages given by commander skill (there is only so much skill involved in setting up archers) but is not at all affected by superior enemy numbers. Height advantage and fortifications grant additional advantages to ranged troops

Mobility:

Mobility is the marker for how well troops can move around the battle field with Extraordinary mobility and above being the mark of flight or other magical means of locomotion.

Note Four: Successful disengaging requires higher mobility than the enemy and may trigger a moral check if the unit is either too low on morale (and thus likely to rout) or too impetuous (and thus unwilling to disengage).
 
I will continue to read the updates no matter what system it is running on, because I'm invested in the story. On the other hand I have never participated much in the running of the quest or voting. So don't have much opinion there.
 
I will continue to read the updates no matter what system it is running on, because I'm invested in the story. On the other hand I have never participated much in the running of the quest or voting. So don't have much opinion there.

While that is more than fair and I thank you for the attention given is there anything that might incline you to start participating? Or to put another way what is anything has felt like it is barring your access to the quest. If you just prefer to read that is fine to of course.
 
Morale:

A unit will take a morale test if the beings fighting within it have been flanked attacked from the rear or can sense that the battle is turning against them. Sufficiently powerful fear or terror effects can also induce a morale check.
Maybe something slightly more granular here?
Wavering (giving a Disatvantage or two) would be nice before jumping straight into a rout.
 
While that is more than fair and I thank you for the attention given is there anything that might incline you to start participating? Or to put another way what is anything has felt like it is barring your access to the quest. If you just prefer to read that is fine to of course.
Mostly my own time. I have time to read updates once or twice a day. I don't have time to follow voting discussion most of the time. I'm not sure a simpler system will change that a lot.
 
Maybe something slightly more granular here?
Wavering (giving a Disatvantage or two) would be nice before jumping straight into a rout.

I could see that yeah. It would make for more dramatic battles which is all to the good.

One thing we really do have to settle before we start off on talking armies or even realms is what are our resources, what do we have to spent? I was thinking:
  1. Manpower (Raw workforce)
  2. Expert Manpower (Everything from engineers to clerks to wizards)
  3. Wealth (Gold and other resources)
  4. Arcane materials (crafting components and minor enchanted objects)
  5. Political Capital (the ability to get the elites to do what you want and of them to get the people to do when they want)
 
Very, very basic suggestion for CK2 alike:

Actions Internal and External
  1. Change turn length to three months
  2. One Two or Three actions per ministry (I'm leaning two)
  3. Viserys can give a roll bonus though personal attention
  4. Once every four turns (which is to say once per year) we have round of legislative session where we do politics stuff and deal with internal factions
  5. High Court Sessions and Royal judgements are handled on a case by case basis as events
  6. Your enemies (internal and external) as well as your allies get their own actions every round which will be rolled for
  7. At the end of each turn we get a Rumors and reports section that is much more comprehensive than what we have done so far


Thanks for the reminder. In terms of dungeon Crawling I'm thinking three actions each turn, take whoever you want, you have teleport and the actions themselves take days or weeks not the months of a full turn

The one thing I am not yet decided on is finance. @Crake if you have the heart to look over all that one last time I would appreciate the suggestion
1. Turn length of three months sounds fine.
2. I'd say have three actions per ministry, but have plenty of long-term actions that lock those in for multiple turns. Stuff like building roads all over Westeros, land reform in the Reach and such things that can't be finished in one turn.
2.1. Have a massively cut down build queue for special units like Praetori Companies, Power Armour teams, Construct companies, aircraft and capital vessels using only construction capacity and enchanting capacity. Those will still be needed to fight wars with.
2.2. One action per Marshall, either to deploy them to war or to take care of other military business at home.
2.3 Likewise, research slots. Have maybe 1 for each of: SD Scholarium, Gogossos, Fungus Forge, SD Military Academy, SD University
2.4 Inquisition should likewise get three actions like a Ministry, with one additional one per Lord Inquisitor.
3. Would switch this over to Alinor and leave Viserys out.
4. Should happen every turn as politics are pretty much the bread and butter. Maybe have a bigger Curia session now and then, but I wouldn't bunch this all into one event all the time.
5. High Court should be working without Viserys input, so this should only be VIserys deciding which cases to take himself and which to leave with the court.
6. Good.
7. As a general note, you should look into making reports from the Inqusition a lot more detailed. They always felt little more like rumours themselves unless they were combat reports.

8. Having three "adventure" actions per turn is way to much. I would axe those entirely an roll them into other actions. Inquisition. Ministry of Magic. Ministry of Diplomacy. Stuff like that.
 
I could see that yeah. It would make for more dramatic battles which is all to the good.

One thing we really do have to settle before we start off on talking armies or even realms is what are our resources, what do we have to spent? I was thinking:
  1. Manpower (Raw workforce)
  2. Expert Manpower (Everything from engineers to clerks to wizards)
  3. Wealth (Gold and other resources)
  4. Arcane materials (crafting components and minor enchanted objects)
  5. Political Capital (the ability to get the elites to do what you want and of them to get the people to do when they want)
1. Manpower is no issue for us since we just plain don't need many people to do stuff.
2. Eh.... That's already covered by the Ministries having limited actions.
3. Solved issue. Our wealth is YES.
4. Same here since we can just buy the stuff on the planes.
5. I'd rather keep this narratively. This is a good abstraction if you have no details on political systems, but we do have the Curia.
 
Ideally, ideally that is what I would like to do. I cannot beat you guys when it comes to a fight you come prepared for, and with the action economy through the roof, but I might, might be able to give a challenge when it comes to peril unbidden.
Why not. Just bring more enemies. It's not like we are the biggest magic user around or the biggest empire. Instead of 2 squid with super actions like the time travel thing, instead have half a dozen of them. It's not like the ithilids lack mages. Just leverage the massively stronger enemies we face.
 
1. Manpower is no issue for us since we just plain don't need many people to do stuff.
2. Eh.... That's already covered by the Ministries having limited actions.
3. Solved issue. Our wealth is YES.
4. Same here since we can just buy the stuff on the planes.
5. I'd rather keep this narratively. This is a good abstraction if you have no details on political systems, but we do have the Curia.

OK so do you have any suggestions for resources? Same goes more broadly.
 
I keep hearing stuff like that and it really does not make me want to carry on. It feels, perhaps irrationally like I'm taking people's fun away from them
It's not really a big issue for me, dude. I'll just focus the little bit of mental energy I directed toward managing crafting stuff in a different direction. It's not taking my fun away at all.
 
OK so do you have any suggestions for resources? Same goes more broadly.
I would not have any. The core resource in the sketched system would be actions.

Heck, even the build queue is dumb the more I think about it. Just add a few actions for SD's enchanting / construction infrastructure and have it consume actions to make more troops. Done.

The reason my system used so many types of capacities was that at the scale of the Imperium, the most precious resource is the ability to have the state act at all. Resources are a triviality when you have over 100 million citizens.
 
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Why not. Just bring more enemies. It's not like we are the biggest magic user around or the biggest empire. Instead of 2 squid with super actions like the time travel thing, instead have half a dozen of them. It's not like the ithilids lack mages. Just leverage the massively stronger enemies we face.

Complexity and time. This is not a video game, I have to actually roll stuff and rolling a fight with half a dozen foes and half a dozen on your side is neither long and complex or short as hell and ends with me cursing from all the work that went into the build.
 
Complexity and time. This is not a video game, I have to actually roll stuff and rolling a fight with half a dozen foes and half a dozen on your side is neither long and complex or short as hell and ends with me cursing from all the work that went into the build.
I still think that can be worked around. Use a discord server to roll fights, so you can have people that can advice you for both sides or even trusted assistants that can be impartially roll them for you while you can check the logs.
 
I still think that can be worked around. Use a discord server to roll fights, so you can have people that can advice you for both sides or even trusted assistants that can be impartially roll them for you while you can check the logs.

Oh it's definitely doable, but it is not something I can do often. I'm not getting rid of the sheets, no for anyone, things shall yet be rolled as part of wider realm actions

I would not have any. The core resource in the sketched system would be actions.

Heck, even the build queue is dumb the more I think about it. Just add a few actions for SD's enchanting / construction infrastructure and have it consume actions to make more troops. Done.

The reason my system used so many types of capacities was that at the scale of the Imperium, the most precious resource is the ability to have the state act at all. Resources are a triviality when you have over 100 million citizens.

Hmm.... that would be really easy to use. Yeah feeling better about this whole changeover.
 
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