Then this guy basically insulted all the knights in our service. Heck we had a few knights when we were just in the Stepstones and even more after Tyrosh.
Nah. He just insulted all the non-knights serving us. But he could have said so much worse.

Like...

He could have dismissed the women serving us in combat roles within the earshot of Leto.
Or he could have included Sandor in the list of "valiant knights".
Or implied that Dany needed protecting, what with being a little girl.
 
To give a bit of a peek into my notes this vote will go into a new file called: The Big Book of Political Decisions which I will refer to for policy making and character building purposes, that way things like this won't be lost in the shuffle for the next interlude or cool PoV.
 
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To give a bit of a peek into my notes this vote will go into a new file called: The Big Book of Political Decisions which I will refer to for policy making and character building purposes, that way things like this won't be lost in the shuffle for the next interlude or cool PoV.
Could we have that as an infopost? That'd be useful for us too.
 
[X] Heavy are the oaths of knight but neither more nor less worthy than those of others who have sworn themselves to you, you are not king of the Seven Kingdoms, but Imperator and from your Praetorian Guard which has proven itself to finely in both King's landing and Casterly Rock none shall be excluded for lacking a title used only in Westeros and not even all of it
 
[X] There are the Praetori, the Imperial Legions and the Imperial Airforce, who fight in your name. Many knights already have joined these institutions and proven themselves there. The Imperium is more than just Westeros and likewise, it's institutions need to be broader than it, but he is mistaken if he thinks that there are no knights in your service or that the realm as no place for them.
 
I propose that we form a new order dedicated to defending the most vulnerable of the Imperial Palace's inhabitants.

The King's Gardeners will be made up of loyal, hard working Leshy tasked to defend the Palace gardens from pests, vermin, uninvited flower pickers, and anyone unable to read or unwilling to heed the "Keep Off The Grass" signs. 🤓
 
I propose that we form a new order dedicated to defending the most vulnerable of the Imperial Palace's inhabitants.

The King's Gardeners will be made up of loyal, hard working Leshy tasked to defend the Palace gardens from pests, vermin, uninvited flower pickers, and anyone unable to read or unwilling to heed the "Keep Off The Grass" signs. 🤓

Truly the most valiant of protectors of the palace, they shall fight to the last flower, to the last blade of grass.

Pictured Above: Pissed off palace gardener. :V
 
That is not the case, the two default choices are about what you want to focus on, the fact that the kingsguard is antiquated and flawed due to conflicting oaths or the fact that is is not representative for a state that stretches far beyond the lands where knights are relevant. Neither of the options compel you to take people in to the Guard, that is a decision far below Viserys' notice once policy has been set, and it has been.
The problem here is the whole Kingmaker situation was talked about by various nobles and Maesters and history does reflect these were problems of the people rather than the Order, but that was a political sop to appease both the Faith and various nobles who wanted one more inroad into the King's inner-circle.

It's a failed institution but most politcally savvy people are aware of that, and want to keep it around in order to have a way to come close to the King.

The people who believe it's not a failed institution and that the Cloak actually means something like Jaime and Barristan seem to believe are not really politically inclined to begin with, and they are both failures in their own way, making it a bit hypocritical.
 
Nah. He just insulted all the non-knights serving us. But he could have said so much worse.

Like...

He could have dismissed the women serving us in combat roles within the earshot of Leto.
Or he could have included Sandor in the list of "valiant knights".
Or implied that Dany needed protecting, what with being a little girl.

Didn't he kinda imply that we don't have many honorable knights in our service? If I'm wrong please say so but that's what I got from it and if right then many knights working for us would like to say a few words to the guy.
 
Things has changed but knights are still here and more honorable than ever

Hahaha, indeed. It's almost as if they could feel the Damocles Blades up above. Glinting with the Inquisition's mark and the weight of bureaucracy.

If only they could put as much effort of being 'honourable' (read:scheming) into being useful.

Didn't he kinda imply that we don't have many honorable knights in our service? If I'm wrong please say so but that's what I got from it and if right then many knights working for us would like to say a few words to the guy.

*sigh*

If only intra-vassal Lynching is allowed.
 
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Didn't he kinda imply that we don't have many honorable knights in our service? If I'm wrong please say so but that's what I got from it and if right then many knights working for us would like to say a few words to the guy.
What I got from him is that he thinks we are not keeping our knights close enough and instead traffic with... commoners... far too much at that...
 
The problem here is the whole Kingmaker situation was talked about by various nobles and Maesters and history does reflect these were problems of the people rather than the Order, but that was a political sop to appease both the Faith and various nobles who wanted one more inroad into the King's inner-circle.

It's a failed institution but most politcally savvy people are aware of that, and want to keep it around in order to have a way to come close to the King.

The people who believe it's not a failed institution and that the Cloak actually means something like Jaime and Barristan seem to believe are not really politically inclined to begin with, and they are both failures in their own way, making it a bit hypocritical.

While it could not reasonably be called and institutional success for the dynasty it is a means for nobles to get the king's ear while ostensibly holding no other allegiance though that is far from the truth. It served an important function in court and validated the faith and institutions of the South. If the way they married is emblematic of the way the Targs forced Westeros to change than the Kingsguard is emblematic of how the Seven Kingdoms forced the dynasty to change, their most trusted people were knights from the best families sworn with solemn and sacred oaths before the Seven who are one.
 
While it could not reasonably be called and institutional success for the dynasty it is a means for nobles to get the king's ear while ostensibly holding no other allegiance though that is far from the truth. It served an important function in court and validated the faith and institutions of the South. If the way they married is emblematic of the way the Targs forced Westeros to change than the Kingsguard is emblematic of how the Seven Kingdoms forced the dynasty to change, their most trusted people were knights from the best families sworn with solemn and sacred oaths before the Seven who are one.
But no one actually believes it consistently managed to perform those duties stated in the Oath, so much as succeeded in acting as one more lever to check the Targs' power. That's the unspoken part. And that's why it remained unchanged for three centuries. I refuse to believe practically any institution, let alone the Kingsguard after the Dance, wasn't brought up as in need of updates. But post-Dance the Targs were lacking in more than soft power.

So the nobles and Faith said, "Nope, no changes. You get Seven Knights, and the reason is because blah blah blah it's important to have great Knights guarding your life. What, you're still complaining, let's go behind closed doors. Okay, the real reason is we don't want you to have an even slightly larger private force to wage war with. We'll get really mad if you don't do what we say."
 
Or worse. He could have been implying both.....please tell me he isn't that stupid?
DP explicitly noted the following in his author's note:
I'm just using Selmy here as vector because he is the only one brave and foolish enough to say what many are thinking.
That said this also means it's less Selmy individually that's a problem and more the Westerosi in general who have this mindset. They're not big fans of us knocking down established institutions and honoring worthy commoners alongside nobility.
 
DP explicitly noted the following in his author's note:

That said this also means it's less Selmy individually that's a problem and more the Westerosi in general who have this mindset. They're not big fans of us knocking down established institutions and honoring worthy commoners alongside nobility.
Well time for them to suck Viserys's dragon dick! Because they don't get a say in what institutions stay and what go...
 
But no one actually believes it consistently managed to perform those duties stated in the Oath, so much as succeeded in acting as one more lever to check the Targs' power. That's the unspoken part. And that's why it remained unchanged for three centuries. I refuse to believe practically any institution, let alone the Kingsguard after the Dance, wasn't brought up as in need of updates. But post-Dance the Targs were lacking in more than soft power.

So the nobles and Faith said, "Nope, no changes. You get Seven Knights, and the reason is because blah blah blah it's important to have great Knights guarding your life. What, you're still complaining, let's go behind closed doors. Okay, the real reason is we don't want you to have an even slightly larger private force to wage war with. We'll get really mad if you don't do what we say."

The immediate post Dance King was Aegon Dragonsbane, a child in a regency. He at first did not have the power to propose anything and then he had been educated to actually believe that all those limits on his power were normal and the best way to prevent another Dance, which deeply traumatized him. While there were certainly Targs who tried to claw back power from the nobles, not all of them did. They were... an idiosyncratic bunch.
 
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