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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Since last time I got a lot of flak for allegedly keeping this wholly to myself and forcing the fait accompli on the thread, I'll just dump my notes here as they currently are:



- Points & Capacity:
-- various things consume Points and Capacities
-- a Point is a token of value which can be stockpile and used in the future
-- a Capacity is a maximum amount of something that can be spent per turn and it can not be stockpiled, with any unused Capacity being lost


- Projects:
-- catch all term for actions and can mean to build something, to research something, etc.
-- a Project has both a consumption of points per turn and a number of turns of progress it needs before it finishes
-- all projects are kept in a single list, ordered by their priority
-- projects with the highest priority consume points first and all projects that can meet their per-turn requirement advance in progress
-- Examples:
--- Construct Dauntless
---- 2 Assembly Capacity, 1 Training Capacity, 12 Enchantment Capacity, 8 Wealth Points
---- 3 Turns
--- Construct Scholarium
---- 2 Administrative Capacity, 1 Caster Point, 3 Wealth Points
---- 3 Turns
--- Construct Manufactory
---- 2 Administrative Capacity, 2 Caster points, 10 Wealth Points
---- 1 Turn


- Province:

-- Prosperity -> scale from 1 to 100
--- per turn, generates Wealth Points by the following formula: Prosperity * (Control / 100)^2 = Wealth Points
--- 1 Wealth represents about 10,000 IM in value, but can be minerals, rare ressources, cash or similar

-- Development -> scale from 1 to 100
--- determines what goods and services are available, tech and magic availability, government services, etc.
--- low Development provinces consume Administrative Capacity, well developed ones provide more (1-20 -> -2; 21-40 -> -1; 41-60 -> +0; 61-80 -> +1; 81-100 -> +2)
--- in a province that is being plundered, Development is lowered by 1d5 per turn
--- if a province costs AC, granting it to a vassal lord lowers that cost by 1, but a vassal grants no bonus AC at Development 41 or above

-- Control -> scale from 1 to 100
--- determines how well the owner of the province has it under control
--- Control caps Development and as long as Control is lower than Development, the province loses 1d5 Development per turn
--- in absence of other factors, Control rises by 1d5 per turn
--- when a project is being conducted in a province with Control lesser than 100, roll 1d100 and if the result is equal or higher than Control, lose the turns progress
--- always roll 1d100 for a province with Control lesser than 100 each turn, with a result equal or higher than Control triggering a negative event
--- when troops are stationed in a province, their Suppression value is added to Control each turn

-- Supply Limit
--- determines how much units of Supplies can be consumed by troops in this province
--- basic Supply Limit of a province is given by Development / 10
--- basic limit can be doubled by plundering the province, causing Control to drop
--- limit can be raised by specific buildings
--- Supplies are consumed first by the unit with the highest Org
--- if there is a tie, the province owners units go first


- Movement:
-- base speed for a mixed mortal army is 3 provinces per turn
-- when moving into a province containing hostile forces, movement stops
-- moving through jungle, dense forest, jungle, desert or other adverse areas consumes twice the movement cost
-- moving from a province with highway to a province with highway consumes half
-- moving from a province with trains to a province with trains consumes one fourth
-- a province with a Terminus is adjacent to any other province with a Terminus
-- for the duration of one turn, two provinces can be made adjacent by spending 2 Wealth on creating a Gate connection


- Buildings:
-- stand in a province and provide bonuses
-- are raised by project that is considered to take place in the province (and is thus affected by Control checks)
-- cost upkeep and stop working when that can't be paid
-- can be shut off or removed for free
-- Road Network -> needed to increase Development above 50, raises Supply Limit by 5
-- Highway Network -> needed to increase Development above 75, raises Supply Limit by 10, movement bonus
-- Train Network -> raises Supply Limit by 20, movement bonus
-- Terminus -> province is considered adjacent to any other province with a Terminus, regardless of the plane
-- Scholarium -> tiered building with tier capped by Development / 20, provides 1 Caster Point per tier and turn
-- Enchanter -> tiered building that can convert up to it's tier in Wealth into Enchantment Capacity, costs 2 Caster Points to create
-- University -> tiered building with tier capped by Development / 20, provides 1 Research Capacity per tier and turn
-- Training Center -> tiered building that provides 1 Training Capacity
-- Assembly Plant -> tiered building that provides 1 Construction Capacity
-- Manufactory -> tiered building that converts Wealth into Supply Points
-- Development -> pseudo-building that raises Development in the province by 10 when being built
-- Communication Network -> magical communication devices, +10 to Control checks, provide +1d5 Control per turn and prevents disruption of communications
-- Propaganda Network -> newspapers and other means of spreading information, +10 to Control checks, provide +1d5 Control per turn, -10 to hostile Espionage checks
-- Military Base -> TBD
-- Static Defenses -> TBD
 
Azel said:
To me it reads as if Tywin went full tilt and put a bloodline curse on his own family for them to slavishly obey their head of house.

Once we catch wind of that IC, we should ask the High Septon if Joffrey is acting weird. Like, trying to charge out of the sept and killing us with a dagger weird.
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Or he could actually be that foolishly loyal, remember that Tywin brothers have some weird hero worship about him since he was the one to groom and raise them instead of his absent depressive and frankly neglectful father.

Tywin isn't the only Lannister with insanity derived from daddy issues, tbh every single Lannister we see got daddy issues in some shape or other.
 
Azel said:
Since last time I got a lot of flak for allegedly keeping this wholly to myself and forcing the fait accompli on the thread, I'll just dump my notes here as they currently are:



- Points & Capacity:
-- various things consume Points and Capacities
-- a Point is a token of value which can be stockpile and used in the future
-- a Capacity is a maximum amount of something that can be spent per turn and it can not be stockpiled, with any unused Capacity being lost


- Projects:
-- catch all term for actions and can mean to build something, to research something, etc.
-- a Project has both a consumption of points per turn and a number of turns of progress it needs before it finishes
-- all projects are kept in a single list, ordered by their priority
-- projects with the highest priority consume points first and all projects that can meet their per-turn requirement advance in progress
-- Examples:
--- Construct Dauntless
---- 2 Assembly Capacity, 1 Training Capacity, 12 Enchantment Capacity, 8 Wealth Points
---- 3 Turns
--- Construct Scholarium
---- 2 Administrative Capacity, 1 Caster Point, 3 Wealth Points
---- 3 Turns
--- Construct Manufactory
---- 2 Administrative Capacity, 2 Caster points, 10 Wealth Points
---- 1 Turn


- Province:

-- Prosperity -> scale from 1 to 100
--- per turn, generates Wealth Points by the following formula: Prosperity * (Control / 100)^2 = Wealth Points
--- 1 Wealth represents about 10,000 IM in value, but can be minerals, rare ressources, cash or similar

-- Development -> scale from 1 to 100
--- determines what goods and services are available, tech and magic availability, government services, etc.
--- low Development provinces consume Administrative Capacity, well developed ones provide more (1-20 -> -2; 21-40 -> -1; 41-60 -> +0; 61-80 -> +1; 81-100 -> +2)
--- in a province that is being plundered, Development is lowered by 1d5 per turn
--- if a province costs AC, granting it to a vassal lord lowers that cost by 1, but a vassal grants no bonus AC at Development 41 or above

-- Control -> scale from 1 to 100
--- determines how well the owner of the province has it under control
--- Control caps Development and as long as Control is lower than Development, the province loses 1d5 Development per turn
--- in absence of other factors, Control rises by 1d5 per turn
--- when a project is being conducted in a province with Control lesser than 100, roll 1d100 and if the result is equal or higher than Control, lose the turns progress
--- always roll 1d100 for a province with Control lesser than 100 each turn, with a result equal or higher than Control triggering a negative event
--- when troops are stationed in a province, their Suppression value is added to Control each turn

-- Supply Limit
--- determines how much units of Supplies can be consumed by troops in this province
--- basic Supply Limit of a province is given by Development / 10
--- basic limit can be doubled by plundering the province, causing Control to drop
--- limit can be raised by specific buildings
--- Supplies are consumed first by the unit with the highest Org
--- if there is a tie, the province owners units go first


- Movement:
-- base speed for a mixed mortal army is 3 provinces per turn
-- when moving into a province containing hostile forces, movement stops
-- moving through jungle, dense forest, jungle, desert or other adverse areas consumes twice the movement cost
-- moving from a province with highway to a province with highway consumes half
-- moving from a province with trains to a province with trains consumes one fourth
-- a province with a Terminus is adjacent to any other province with a Terminus
-- for the duration of one turn, two provinces can be made adjacent by spending 2 Wealth on creating a Gate connection


- Buildings:
-- stand in a province and provide bonuses
-- are raised by project that is considered to take place in the province (and is thus affected by Control checks)
-- cost upkeep and stop working when that can't be paid
-- can be shut off or removed for free
-- Road Network -> needed to increase Development above 50, raises Supply Limit by 5
-- Highway Network -> needed to increase Development above 75, raises Supply Limit by 10, movement bonus
-- Train Network -> raises Supply Limit by 20, movement bonus
-- Terminus -> province is considered adjacent to any other province with a Terminus, regardless of the plane
-- Scholarium -> tiered building with tier capped by Development / 20, provides 1 Caster Point per tier and turn
-- Enchanter -> tiered building that can convert up to it's tier in Wealth into Enchantment Capacity, costs 2 Caster Points to create
-- University -> tiered building with tier capped by Development / 20, provides 1 Research Capacity per tier and turn
-- Training Center -> tiered building that provides 1 Training Capacity
-- Assembly Plant -> tiered building that provides 1 Construction Capacity
-- Manufactory -> tiered building that converts Wealth into Supply Points
-- Development -> pseudo-building that raises Development in the province by 10 when being built
-- Communication Network -> magical communication devices, +10 to Control checks, provide +1d5 Control per turn and prevents disruption of communications
-- Propaganda Network -> newspapers and other means of spreading information, +10 to Control checks, provide +1d5 Control per turn, -10 to hostile Espionage checks
-- Military Base -> TBD
-- Static Defenses -> TBD
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I'll be real with you here, anything that gets me out of having to do another turn vote in the current style has my support, but the onus was on me this entire time to do it, so I'm hardly unbiased here.
 
MasterDrakus said:
Or he could actually be that foolishly loyal, remember that Tywin brothers have some weird hero worship about him since he was the one to groom and raise them instead of his absent depressive and frankly neglectful father.

Tywin isn't the only Lannister with insanity derived from daddy issues, tbh every single Lannister we see got daddy issues in some shape or other.
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This is patently false, and is only partially true in the case of Kevan. Kevan isn't even so much slavishly devoted as just genuinely loyal to Tywin for his own nuanced reasons that go beyond "Tywin knows best".

Tygett is the most openly resentful of Tywin, and that has been going on for years before ASWAH timeline divergence.

Genna has been critical of him in the past to other family, so we can get some indication that she's not liable to have really been included in any of the political decision making at all, and is probably about as much of a non-entity here as she was in canon.

Gerion has and had his own motivations, but unlike Tygett who could never seem to escape Tywin's legacy and demands, has mostly been met with imposition after imposition due to bad political decisions that Tywin made. Albeit, they were only bad decisions in hindsight, and seemed like "good ones" at the time... no, not even good ones, trying to force control over the Iron Throne through marraige pacts without doing anything to deal with the obvious non-inclusion into STAB political bloc was a bad move in canon and is a bad move here.

Tywin would have stood alone but for some holdouts, if not for having some extra leverage over everyone.
 
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@Azel So from what I've gathered regarding Mass Combat homebrew:

DP should just write about tactical-scale encounters, if he wants to give an example of a conflict's general level of stakes, with a given set of sheets for singular troops. These would be largely fluff, with sheets created largely at request from him by players (or himself).

At this scale, we should already be on 4X rules, with regular D&D rules tacked on for "legendary hero" activities, when that level of abstraction is a detriment to narrative intent rather than an aide toward simplifying matters.

If you intended upon writing rules to resolve conflicts between armies of thousands, we should resolve to use those determinations when observing military activities play out 'on screen'.

@TalonofAnathrax mentioned earlier that whenever it comes time to roll out big changes, people mention "but I like X about Y! We should keep Y because of X, but we can also do Z at the same time."

That feels relevant.

The two don't end up playing well together, because one person has one purpose and reason behind doing the first thing, and the person who is designing the new thing does not care at all for the first thing to begin with.

I feel like there should be some interplay between D&D mechanics and strategic scale mass combat, as at times it might not be practical to have no rules for tactical scale fights. But thinking about it, it just feels sort of all or nothing. If we're on screen when a tactical-scale mass combat breaks out, we can kill an arbitrary number of standard units with relative impunity, even amongst armies with tons of special modifiers, immunities and bigger statistics as compared to human ones.

So the end result is it comes down to a knife fight between two roughly equivalent groups of hero units, with armies largely acting like set pieces and defeating the purpose of worrying about tactical-scale groups of combatants.
 
My two cents, as someone who has just started a Quest recently, is that I think whatever makes life easier for DP and the rest of y'all would be best. We players are here for the narrative, and the narrative suffers when the people behind the Quest aren't having fun, I think. I like both the mana point suggestion and Crake's system, for what it's worth.
 
Just read through the Armory page and realised we haven't given out those Oathbows to the Enrinyes? Or did we have someone else to give them to?
 
Crake said:
@Azel So from what I've gathered regarding Mass Combat homebrew:

DP should just write about tactical-scale encounters, if he wants to give an example of a conflict's general level of stakes, with a given set of sheets for singular troops. These would be largely fluff, with sheets created largely at request from him by players (or himself).

At this scale, we should already be on 4X rules, with regular D&D rules tacked on for "legendary hero" activities, when that level of abstraction is a detriment to narrative intent rather than an aide toward simplifying matters.

If you intended upon writing rules to resolve conflicts between armies of thousands, we should resolve to use those determinations when observing military activities play out 'on screen'.

@TalonofAnathrax mentioned earlier that whenever it comes time to roll out big changes, people mention "but I like X about Y! We should keep Y because of X, but we can also do Z at the same time."

That feels relevant.

The two don't end up playing well together, because one person has one purpose and reason behind doing the first thing, and the person who is designing the new thing does not care at all for the first thing to begin with.

I feel like there should be some interplay between D&D mechanics and strategic scale mass combat, as at times it might not be practical to have no rules for tactical scale fights. But thinking about it, it just feels sort of all or nothing. If we're on screen when a tactical-scale mass combat breaks out, we can kill an arbitrary number of standard units with relative impunity, even amongst armies with tons of special modifiers, immunities and bigger statistics as compared to human ones.

So the end result is it comes down to a knife fight between two roughly equivalent groups of hero units, with armies largely acting like set pieces and defeating the purpose of worrying about tactical-scale groups of combatants.
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I'm really not sure that strategic level will be enough. What I'm looking at right now is "army sized groups repeatedly clashing over the course of a month".

I mean, you can use the same rules applied on a shorter timescale for a decent "big battle" resolution, but it would interact... weirdly with things like "Viserys is on the field".

...

Maybe I can find some way to make it work together, but no promises.
 
Any large battle systems need to include provisions for "Viserys cast Mythic Shadow of the Doom", and that's certainly quite a design challenge.

DragonParadox said:
Representative of the ancestral might of House Targaryen, the symbols of Aegon's rule and weapons by which he claimed all of Westeros the Dragon Riders of the Imperum are an Electric gathering, defined more by the odd and often arcane circumstance than direct blood relationship to the crown. One might find among them the time-lost, the once dead(needs comma?) the daring(needs comma?) and the god-sworn
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@DragonParadox, possible typoes bolded.
 
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Say, what do all of you see as the most important "classes" of attack abilities in D&D?

I'm mainly seeing Physical (straight weapons damage or elemental damage), Death (death effects, negative energy, etc.) and Enchantment (various mindcontrol related attack patterns).

Am I missing some important super-category?
 
At all levels, entangling attacks (from the humble grease or entangle to Black Tentacles or the commonplace Improved Grab). This is ridiculously deadly to most characters: no using big melee weapons, hard to escape, hard to cast spells... It's why ankhlets of translocation are a must-buy for so many builds at low/mid levels.
There's no official tag for this, but it's still something you need to take into account. Teleportation, Escape Artist, being crazily deadly with daggers...
 
@Azel, how would Research and Hero characters work?

Is it that 'mana' points are produced by PCs, based off their level?

So a level 7 mageling (level arbitrary, taken lowest Scholarum cut-off point) is barely able to contribute with his 1 Research Point, but level 15+ mage is a competent 2/3-point researcher, and 2/3-point adventurer (for tasks like clearing out dungeon delves, etc)?
That level 7 melee-chopper can't help with Research (duh), and is only marginally useful as an adventurer, but level 15+ gets bonus points to leading armies, and can delve really well (3p?)?


RAs taken both Progress and a set timer to end now.
I like that.
The RNG of possibly blowing through a 60-Progress RA in a month, or failing to do a 10-Progress one two months in a row is kinda reeeeee-inducing.

Scholarum branches now need to be built up, to be of more use, yes?
I assume the current ones will be retroactively built up, then, accordingly to how long they've been at it.

Problem: we've already established the Scholarums as unreliable to be assigned to anything sensitive, and the current list of RAs has nothing that isn't too sensitive to let them handle.

I like the stuff so far.
 
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egoo said:
@Azel, how would Research and Hero characters work?

Is it that 'mana' points are produced by PCs, based off their level?

So a level 7 mageling (level arbitrary, taken lowest Scholarum cut-off point) is barely able to contribute with his 1 Research Point, but level 15+ mage is a competent 2/3-point researcher, and 2/3-point adventurer (for tasks like clearing out dungeon delves, etc)?
That level 7 melee-chopper can't help with Research (duh), and is only marginally useful as an adventurer, but level 15+ gets bonus points to leading armies, and can delve really well (3p?)?


RAs taken both Progress and a set timer to end now.
I like that.
The RNG of possibly blowing through a 60-Progress RA in a month, or failing to do a 10-Progress one two months in a row is kinda reeeeee-inducing.

Scholarum branches now need to be built up, to be of more use, yes?
I assume the current ones will be retroactively built up, then, accordingly to how long they've been at it.

Problem: we've already established the Scholarums as unreliable to be assigned to anything sensitive, and the current list of RAs has nothing that isn't too sensitive to let them handle.

I like the stuff so far.
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That's roughly what I'm going for, though I'm not sure if I want army commanders to even be a thing. Probably not. I'm also not sure if I want "adventuring capacity" or similar instead of just rolling that in with Espionage. This is one of the gnarlier edges of the system.

Scholariums won't provide research under the new system. I'm still mulling over if Caster Points can be converted into a "Researcher" building or not.
Artemis1992 said:
Are you including fear here?
It's a reasonably important thing, many creature can cause it, few are immune.
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Yes, that would be grouped in with Enchantment.
 
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