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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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lancelot said:
What other plan was there besides leaving Brandon to Aerys' mercy/common sense? Rikard didn't have spies, or agents, and it isn't like the faceless to rescue missions even if he could afford it. All he had at that point was the hope Aerys was less insane than rumor and trial by combat is about as 'scared' as Guest rights. Seeing how if I remember right he didn't have Ice with him, well maybe he loved his son and could stand by and do nothing to save him.
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Send a letter asking that Brandon be given a chance to join the Watch. when Aerys inevitably refused declare war. When the Lannisters imprisoned Eddard Stark Robb marched south in spite of the knowledge that he was most likely condemning his father and possibly his sisters to death. As unpleasant as that ws it was still better than Robb going south with a small escort to ask Joffrey nicely to free his father.
 
DragonParadox said:
Send a letter asking that Brandon be given a chance to join the Watch. when Aerys inevitably refused declare war. When the Lannisters imprisoned Eddard Stark Robb marched south in spite of the knowledge that he was most likely condemning his father and possibly his sisters to death. As unpleasant as that ws it was still better than Robb going south with a small escort to ask Joffrey nicely to free his father.
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The difference there is that Robb met the little shit personally, AND he had the letters from his Father while in King's landing that Joffrey was a monsterous little bastard and the only thing worse than being killed by him and being used to entertain him alive as Sansa found out. Robb had direct first hand accounts from his own father, and his own personal meeting with Joffery to go by. Rickard had only rumors and hearsay. Again that doesn't absolve him of all blame, but it does excuse a lot of it.
 
Aerys is crazy also doesn't automatically mean 'Aerys is going to immediately throw down with half of his kingdom, more if Dorne decides to get prickly about their honor and goes for the backstab.' Richard's calculation was probably that the worst case was that Aerys would make him watch his son die horribly, and that he was willing to eat that humiliation to buy more time to gather additional strength.

He was wrong, but acting like an unprecedented self destructive act was easily predictable kind of ignores the whole concept of unprecedented.
 
Anyone bashing Lyanna for accidentally causing a war are forgetting that without this war, the world wouldn't have its current Mythic Dragon Sorcerer Empire busy saving it from multiple apocalypses. Imagine having to rely on King Aerys (or even that dumbass Rhaegar) in Westeros and a pile of infighting slavers in Essos! We should congratulate the Starks for starting this bloodbath, because without it the world would have a grand total of 0 high-level murder machines going around killing Avatars of Mammon!

I mean, if we're going this far into consequentialist morality, why not go all the way?!?
EDIT: Also I personally think that responsibility and whatnot should be judged on consequences and not on intent, but let's not get too crazy bashing Lyanna here.

More seriously, I think that Lyanna can be blamed for her mistakes, but that giving her the responsibility of the ensuing war is rather ridiculous. At best she's a small factor in this whole mess. Not only did she have nothing to do with creating the massive powderkeg the was called Aerys' Kingdom, she was also only partly responsible for the spark that lit it - and she probably didn't even have the necessary information to properly judge the consequences of her actions!

tl;dr: Lyanna big dumb. Lyanna not the antichrist.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 28, 2020 at 9:04 AM, finished with 86 posts and 22 votes.
  • [X] Plan Diplomatic Offense
    -[X] Whom to take along and why:
    --[X] Viserys - Talking with Ned about the urgent matters at hand and general politics. Take a long the remaining items in the pile earmarked for sacrifice, in case you will need them.
    --[X] Rhealla - Talking with Catelyn, since she knows what it's like to lose family.
    --[X] Dany - Talking with Jon, since she has somewhat of a friendship with him, and has experience with dead brothers.
    --[X] Richard - To stand in the corner and scowl.
    --[X] Rina and Vee - Look over the attackers corpse and scan the keep for signs of it's activities. How it got in, other victims, potential traps left behind and so on.
    ---[X] Pop a quick Divination to check that Rina won't be recognized as hostile by the wards. If she is, bring Lya instead.
    -[X] First and foremost, offer you condolence for the events that transpired.
    -[X] Get his permission to check Winterfell for further intruders and other surprises left behind (Rina and Vee) while getting Dany to Jon under the pretense of debriefing him to not arouse too much suspicion about how they know each other.
    -[X] Divine if Robb can be resurrected:
    --[X] If yes, offer him to see if you can resurrect his son, with the caveat that the nature of the creature that killed him might have made that impossible. Results you got when attempting to resurrect persons killed by or connected to the void varied. Worst case, his soul is gone for good and you will only animate they body as a wight. (Insist on calling it "the body" in this context, so that he and Catelyn get it into their head that their son is nor a pile of meat and vice versa, just in case that really happens.)
    ---[X] Toss as many sacrifices as necessary on that project.
    --[X] If not, throw the book at them what the Others are, why they are bad news and that they can kill something beyond all recovery. If they still insist or give off the impression of trying anyway, offer them to do so, but tell them flat out that you will likely just animate the body as a Wight since their son is gone for good.
    -[X] Since the Starks apparently haven't gotten the newest Imperial Times from Wintertown yet, bring a few copies along to hand them out when the topic comes to Robert.
    -[X] Also divine why Ned didn't receive the news yet and if Maester Luwyn is trustworthy.
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TalonofAnathrax said:
Anyone bashing Lyanna for accidentally causing a war are forgetting that without this war, the world wouldn't have its current Mythic Dragon Sorcerer Empire busy saving it from multiple apocalypses. Imagine having to rely on King Aerys (or even that dumbass Rhaegar) in Westeros and a pile of infighting slavers in Essos! We should congratulate the Starks for starting this bloodbath, because without it the world would have a grand total of 0 high-level murder machines going around killing Avatars of Mammon!

I mean, if we're going this far into consequentialist morality, why not go all the way?!?
EDIT: Also I personally think that responsibility and whatnot should be judged on consequences and not on intent, but let's not get too crazy bashing Lyanna here.

More seriously, I think that Lyanna can be blamed for her mistakes, but that giving her the responsibility of the ensuing war is rather ridiculous. At best she's a small factor in this whole mess. Not only did she have nothing to do with creating the massive powderkeg the was called Aerys' Kingdom, she was also only partly responsible for the spark that lit it - and she probably didn't even have the necessary information to properly judge the consequences of her actions!

tl;dr: Lyanna big dumb. Lyanna not the antichrist.
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It's a bit vexing that every time someone criticizes Lyanna (or the Starks in general) it is taken, at least by some, as "[Stark] is the antichrist!"
 
So it's been a little while since I last posted in the thread, I finished my degree and started my job fulltime and pretty much immediately had to work from home due to COVID. Sadly this meant less free time and I wasn't able to keep up with the pace of the thread. But I found some time yesterday evening and pretty much binged everything since the battle of Smith's sorrows. Here are some of my (belated) reactions.

First of all, it's great to hear DP is virus-free, it's had a huge impact on our lives over the last few months.

Secondly, I see that Qyburn has ascended, I look forward to getting my ass kicked by him in the next Bloodborne game.

Lucan has also died off-screen doing something even Viserys would consider "a bit reckless", and this is from a guy that's wagered with an archduke, murdered a dead god, a living god's avatar... etc. A bit anti-climatic but understandable given Lucan's last time on screen.

Finally, the invasion of Westeros is getting started! And also Robert died as he lived.... by snu snu. But in all seriousness, it was a great chapter and really showed a man that never wanted to be king choosing to let go and die happy instead of fighting a helpless battle without anyone he really cared about left. Honestly a very poetic death and a great conclusion to the character.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
Anyone bashing Lyanna for accidentally causing a war are forgetting that without this war, the world wouldn't have its current Mythic Dragon Sorcerer Empire busy saving it from multiple apocalypses. Imagine having to rely on King Aerys (or even that dumbass Rhaegar) in Westeros and a pile of infighting slavers in Essos! We should congratulate the Starks for starting this bloodbath, because without it the world would have a grand total of 0 high-level murder machines going around killing Avatars of Mammon!

I mean, if we're going this far into consequentialist morality, why not go all the way?!?
EDIT: Also I personally think that responsibility and whatnot should be judged on consequences and not on intent, but let's not get too crazy bashing Lyanna here.

More seriously, I think that Lyanna can be blamed for her mistakes, but that giving her the responsibility of the ensuing war is rather ridiculous. At best she's a small factor in this whole mess. Not only did she have nothing to do with creating the massive powderkeg the was called Aerys' Kingdom, she was also only partly responsible for the spark that lit it - and she probably didn't even have the necessary information to properly judge the consequences of her actions!

tl;dr: Lyanna big dumb. Lyanna not the antichrist.
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Oh, it goes beyond that. Aerys and Rhaegar have the same blood as Viserys (literally, all of them being descendants of Aegon V and Betha Blackwood and no one else... it's a family totem pole, not a tree), and eventful lives with possible traumatic sources for magical awakening. Not sure if canon by Viserys Dragon Dream or omake but Aerys came close in Duskendale, and canonically was obsessed with becoming a dragon. The potential for power is the same, the moral compass is drastically not.

So, in a way, we should be thankful for Robert's rebellion, even if the only thanks we can afford to give is what Agent Smith offered Neo.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 28, 2020 at 9:04 AM, finished with 86 posts and 22 votes.
  • [X] Plan Diplomatic Offense
    -[X] Whom to take along and why:
    --[X] Viserys - Talking with Ned about the urgent matters at hand and general politics. Take a long the remaining items in the pile earmarked for sacrifice, in case you will need them.
    --[X] Rhealla - Talking with Catelyn, since she knows what it's like to lose family.
    --[X] Dany - Talking with Jon, since she has somewhat of a friendship with him, and has experience with dead brothers.
    --[X] Richard - To stand in the corner and scowl.
    --[X] Rina and Vee - Look over the attackers corpse and scan the keep for signs of it's activities. How it got in, other victims, potential traps left behind and so on.
    ---[X] Pop a quick Divination to check that Rina won't be recognized as hostile by the wards. If she is, bring Lya instead.
    -[X] First and foremost, offer you condolence for the events that transpired.
    -[X] Get his permission to check Winterfell for further intruders and other surprises left behind (Rina and Vee) while getting Dany to Jon under the pretense of debriefing him to not arouse too much suspicion about how they know each other.
    -[X] Divine if Robb can be resurrected:
    --[X] If yes, offer him to see if you can resurrect his son, with the caveat that the nature of the creature that killed him might have made that impossible. Results you got when attempting to resurrect persons killed by or connected to the void varied. Worst case, his soul is gone for good and you will only animate they body as a wight. (Insist on calling it "the body" in this context, so that he and Catelyn get it into their head that their son is nor a pile of meat and vice versa, just in case that really happens.)
    ---[X] Toss as many sacrifices as necessary on that project.
    --[X] If not, throw the book at them what the Others are, why they are bad news and that they can kill something beyond all recovery. If they still insist or give off the impression of trying anyway, offer them to do so, but tell them flat out that you will likely just animate the body as a Wight since their son is gone for good.
    -[X] Since the Starks apparently haven't gotten the newest Imperial Times from Wintertown yet, bring a few copies along to hand them out when the topic comes to Robert.
    -[X] Also divine why Ned didn't receive the news yet and if Maester Luwyn is trustworthy.
Click to expand...
 
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Part MMMDCLXVI: Souls Lost and Secrets Found
  • Threadmarks
    • Souls Lost and Secrets Found ​

    First Day of the Fourth Month 294 AC

    There was rarely a case where asking too many questions of the future was to the detriment of the one doing the asking. And so you ask four more of the serpent-god Yss: "Why has Lord Stark not received word about Robert Bratheon's death? Is Maester Luwin to blame? Is Maester Luwin loyal to Lord Stark? Is master Luwin part of the Conspiracy of Oldtown?" Each time the vessel's answer is the same: No.

    Good. the last thing you needed to do was tell the man who had just lost his foster brother and son that the man whose counsel he had lost trusted was a traitor. One more question you ask of the Great Serpent before departing. "Can Robb Stark be restored. to life?"

    "Yes..." You breathe a sigh of relief... too soon. "So long as his soul is recovered from its prison."

    Your thoughts go back at once to the leshy's account of the murderer. "Its body lived and its heart beat, but its soul was elsewhere, in the grip of the Enemy..."

    "Fuck," Dany courses beside you, the sound unnaturally loud in the sanctum. Thankfully Yss does not seem to care.

    ***​

    You arrive in Winterfell without fanfare under cover of night, under the boughs of the godswood to find Lord and Lady Stark waiting for you alongside the aged Maester Luwin and a grim faced man you guess must be Jory Cassel. Guilt still lingers behind his eyes for all he tries to show a brave front. Jon you note is not here, nor are any of the other children.

    "My lord, my lady," you begin courteously introducing your company. Ser Richard is the easiest, his purpose here as obvious as the sword at his side, in a way you suspect reassuring that you would still need protection, though you doubt the Starks would find comfort knowing the sorts of foes the knight had guarded you from.

    Dany offers a small smile and a charming little courtesy that comes off as putting a brave face on things, your mother draws surprised looks but not shocked, news of her return to life having already been both heard and believed. As to Vee, you suspect she might have drawn more attention from Lady Stark on any other day, but not in the wake of her son's death. Her eyes fix on Rina before you can offer her name, sorrow shifting to rage: "You... you're one of them! You did..."

    "Catelyn," Lord Stark cuts her off, though his words are soft. "The letter mentioned the lady and that she is no enemy. Prince Viserys is a guest here and so are those brought with him."

    "Yes... yes... I apologize, can you...?" she eyes your mother before she cuts herself off, the oft practiced mask of noble courtesy slipping over shock and grief with the skill that only long practice can breed.

    "There is much to speak of, but before all else I must bring news of another who died due to Winter's embrace." You sigh as you hand over the newspaper fresh off print. "I make no claim to sorrow for it would not be believed regardless, but I feel it will serve us all here to know where we stand in light of this."

    Eddard Stark reads the lines, once, twice, three times, you can see his eyes moving over the lettering even as his mind or perhaps his heart cannot believe it. You expect him to call you a liar at least once, until his reason catches up to his emotions. He does nothing of the sort. All he asks is. "Can I keep this?"

    It is a ridiculous question, in a way this is a ridiculous circumstance, just as it it tragic in light of Robb Stark's death. "Of course." After a moment you add. "If you need time I understand..."

    "No," the word is harsh, as if torn from his throat. "Too much time has been wasted already. You have to see to the thing that killed Rob. I think it is safe to say that all of us here share an enemy, whatever else might lie between us."

    Lady Stark gives him a worried look, then catches sight of the Times' headline and looks almost... relieved? Of course she would have little cause to be attached to Baratheon beyond the practical, and sending her daughter to Runestone could be seen as hedging her bets.

    Investigating the wards reveals that the protections of Winterfell are intact as they can be, though unmanned as in your last visit. That the attacker has simply scaled the wall and not been recognized as a creature of Winter, perhaps Rina posits a new sort of servant, though that had not spared it from being barred from the crypts by the defenses Jon erected. Alas, the agent's nature was such that its remains could not be read as usual. Divinations that bespeak bones read the imprint of the soul upon the body and no soul has dwelt in those bones for centuries. All this Vee recounts silently from her investigation on the other side of the keep while in Lord Stark's solar you give as close an accounting of Winter and the Void as you can.

    You glance at Dany and see the same uncertainty in her eyes as is likely reflected in yours. How to tell grieving parents their son's soul had been stolen by an an all consuming darkness of the Far North. Yet tell them you must, you had not forgotten Lady Stark's aborted question upon your meeting and worse yet according to Rina attempts to raise Rob will restore him to life yes, but only as something akin to his killer, utterly in the thrall of Winter.

    "May I speak to Jon?" your sister asks, shattering a moment of silence. Catching Lord Stark's eye she says simply. "I think it is best if you just tell them now. Robert is not around to care and any sorcerer who cares to look deep enough into his parentage can see." That last part is not strictly true thanks to the meddling of Bloodraven and the Old Gods, but the Starks do not need to know that.

    The shock lies so heavy you can almost feel it like the air of a brewing storm. For his part the Lord of Winterfell looks like he had been struck by lightning, finally he says: "Before you offered me a moment, I shall take it now... while your sister speaks to Jon."

    "Certainly," you bow. "We will be in the godswood..." Which will hopefully give you a chance to speak to the Old Gods about Robb's soul.

    ***​

    Alas the answers you get from a grim and weary Bloodraven are not what you might have hoped, the mutilated shell of his body is not enough to simply pull Robb's soul back. You will have to recover it some other way. Worse yet there is nothing stopping the Lords of Winter from now animating Robb Stark as a soulless automation under their control to put him to whatever use they deem fit. As news to give a grieving family on a day so many secrets have already been unveiled this makes a poor telling indeed.

    How do you explain the situation of Robb's soul to the Starks?

    [] Write in

    OOC: Well this was a lot longer than I anticipated, there is a lot going on character-wise. I'm tempted to do interludes, but I don't want this to drag.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • I can only say that if we don't get his soul back bad things will happen in general. But can we fetch it back in a timely manner?
     
    Think that casting Soulseeker is worth our time? It gives a lot of information about the state and location of a soul, and depending on if the lands of always winter count as part of this plane or not we might get a vector towards his holding cell. I'm not sure exactly how we could get around the divination wards they're probably using, but we do have the old gods and an example of the system the Others are using on hand. We might be able to work something out.

    In the meantime I'll start looking for more options in my anti soul fuckery items/spells bookmarks.
     
    First thing first: Burn the body. Nothing useful can be achieved with it and it's a potential vector for Other attacks.
     
    So we don't know where the soul is, we can't rezz the body, we can't use the body to see where the soul is, we don't get anything out of the Assasin's body, and we cannot leave the body lest it is rezzed by the Others.

    To me this seems rather clear-cut:
    We can do jack shit about this now, burn the body and be done.

    We'll likely fight some manner of Rob-specter later, but for now we really don't have much of a choice, do we?

    ...And for one the Winter succeeded (at least marginally) at shit.
    Yuss.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    Think that casting Soulseeker is worth our time? It gives a lot of information about the state and location of a soul, and depending on if the lands of always winter count as part of this plane or not we might get a vector towards his holding cell. I'm not sure exactly how we could get around the divination wards they're probably using, but we do have the old gods and an example of the system the Others are using on hand. We might be able to work something out.

    In the meantime I'll start looking for more options in my anti soul fuckery items/spells bookmarks.
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    It's Divination, unfortunately. It is blocked by a Mindblank effect. If we could scrying beacon Robb's soul with his parent(s) blood maybe we could do a direct Find the Path Soul Edition straight to him.
     
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