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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Azel said:
Children in general. The whole character of Dany stands as a testament to biological age not mattering in the face of the individual and it's capabilities / deeds. Viserys has never espoused an ideal of incorruptible pureness, especially not based on age. Aegons death stands as a testament to the exact opposite.

What you are pushing for here is an OOC concern / author tract.
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I don't know the name of a specific fallacy...

All zebras are black and white therefore everything that is black and white must be a zebra?

False equivalence I believe?

edit: That was unhelpful. I apologize.

Danny and Aegon are radically different from most children, and how Viserys has treated them has differed.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I see where you are coming from, but Viserys does get that most children are not Dany and he does have a thing with preventing harm to the weak and depossessed. I could see him pushing to prevent sacrifice of most children with an exemption for those who transcend their age like Aegon and again Dany.
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That's pretty much the criteria we use for everyone else. If they haven't committed sacrifice-worthy crimes they're safe.
 
Azel said:
So "assumed innocence until proven otherwise"? Like everyone else?

At this point you are still judging them by the same measure as everyone else, so the whole thing becomes a transparent fig-leaf. Viserys would and has soul-killed children who fell into the categories listed, regardless of their age.
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Of course, but the thing is the Old Gods are not bound by the laws of the Empire. They will happily take what Imperial law considers inocents child or no. This if I understand @zxzx24's intent correctly would be asking them not to take innocent children sacrifices at all.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Of course, but the thing is the Old Gods are not bound by the laws of the Empire. They will happily take what Imperial law considers innocence child or no. This if I understand @zxzx24's intent correctly would be asking them not to take innocent children sacrifices at all.
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The thing DP is saying is that we can prosecute the people for sacrificing the children, but the Old Gods would still take those sacrifices.

Convincing them not to do so would disincline people sacrificing kids to them.

Not that there aren't better patrons to send their child sacrifices to who might even reward them more for it.
 
DragonParadox said:
Of course, but the thing is the Old Gods are not bound by the laws of the Empire. They will happily take what Imperial law considers inocents child or no. This if I understand @zxzx24's intent correctly would be asking them not to take innocent children sacrifices at all.
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And Viserys knew that for years and was fine with it, even in the face of knowing innocents had been sacrificed by Dallas people.

I'm not seeing why he should suddenly be bothered by it, especially not in the context of children, when he has never applied that distinct himself before.


This feels like whitewashing and burying the skeletons again. Especially when he implicitly makes himself, yet again, the ultimate arbitrator of right and wrong by reserving the right to disregard this rule whenever he feels it's warranted.
 
Considering the only places where Heart Trees exist is the North (soon to be depopulated), Westeros (soon to be conquered) and the Imperium (it is illegal to kill children unless they break all those nice laws as normal, sacrificing them included) I see no point to poking the OG with said issue. Will stop on its own.
 
Duesal said:
@egoo has a point, it's not really IC for Xor or Mercy to be people looters.
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Evaunit02mark1 said:
Xor's too nice to make anyone stick around who doesn't want to. He's far to precious for Planetos and the world doesn't deserve him.
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But it is IC for Xor to let spirits pass away happy rather than regretful.

Let the spirit show that Rhoynar people and the descendants of the Freehold are working together in peace for a brighter world, and if he wants to stay and help for a bit that is his choice.
 
Azel said:
And Viserys knew that for years and was fine with it, even in the face of knowing innocents had been sacrificed by Dallas people.

I'm not seeing why he should suddenly be bothered by it, especially not in the context of children, when he has never applied that distinct himself before.


This feels like whitewashing and burying the skeletons again. Especially when he implicitly makes himself, yet again, the ultimate arbitrator of right and wrong by reserving the right to disregard this rule whenever he feels it's warranted.
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I've never made it explicit in text that Dalla sacrificed children beyond the Chosen, because they didn't. It really was not worth it for the minor boons they would have gotten especially as even among the clansmen there would be people less than enthused at the prospect. It could genuinely be that it had not occurred to him until now because of how counter-intuitive it would be to sacrifice a child to the Old Gods given how they reward one for the strength of life (which is what HD is by fluff).
 
Azel said:
And Viserys knew that for years and was fine with it, even in the face of knowing innocents had been sacrificed by Dallas people.

I'm not seeing why he should suddenly be bothered by it, especially not in the context of children, when he has never applied that distinct himself before.


This feels like whitewashing and burying the skeletons again. Especially when he implicitly makes himself, yet again, the ultimate arbitrator of right and wrong by reserving the right to disregard this rule whenever he feels it's warranted.
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Alright gimme a minute.

Viserys does not have the self awareness that you possess. Nor does everyone in the thread. There are probably a number of people who didn't connect the dots. Including Viserys if that part of the conclave is still cannon. Knowing something is possible is different from seeing it happen right in front of you. Or being told a first hand account.

Viserys would absolutely be bothered as hell by it given his many criseses over harming children in the past.

You have many times claimed an action that is an attempt to improve things is white washing or burying skeletons. Can you elaborate on how this differs from actual progress?
 
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DragonParadox said:
I've never made it explicit in text that Dalla sacrificed children beyond the Chosen, because they didn't. It really was not worth it for the minor boons they would have gotten especially as even among the clansmen there would be people less than enthused at the prospect. It could genuinely be that it had not occurred to him until now because of how counter-intuitive it would be to sacrifice a child to the Old Gods given how they reward one for the strength of life (which is what HD is by fluff).
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I keep saying it. Children aren't safe because there's inherent value in them. Children are safe because they are shitty, shitty sacrifices.

I half expect the Old Gods to be a bit grumpy about it if someone tries to toss a kid to them. They'll still eat it, but its insultingly tiny for a meal.

"WHERE'S THE REST OF IT? SCREW YOU, THE DRAGON FEEDS US MUCH BETTER."
 
DragonParadox said:
I've never made it explicit in text that Dalla sacrificed children beyond the Chosen, because they didn't. It really was not worth it for the minor boons they would have gotten especially as even among the clansmen there would be people less than enthused at the prospect. It could genuinely be that it had not occurred to him until now because of how counter-intuitive it would be to sacrifice a child to the Old Gods given how they reward one for the strength of life (which is what HD is by fluff).
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At pretty much every point DP has made pains to mention how Viserys does not gel with harming kids. And that's not "innocents" that's kids, explicitly.

And he has gone on to mention, "No, it isn't rational, it's just the way he feels".

No one is always perfectly rational about how they treat certain subjects. Reductionist arguments/false equivalence accusations get thrown around specifically because of the idea that once you act based on utilitarian principles or with ruthless methodology, you innately apply that methodology in all things.

Viserys isn't actually a coldly logical person. He usually weighs everything up and decides if it's actually going to lead to a positive outcome based on how he measures such things.

Does he use logic in principle? Does it factor into some of his motivations?

Sure.

It's just not the only thing motivating him by far.
 
Okay, this conversation is actually starting to piss me off. It adds no value to the thread. Can we drop it? I am willing to drop it. I am even willing to reduce my arguments in principle if people make a point to point out any flaws in them.

This is pointless though.
 
Duesal said:
It does, but those people are infected by the insanity that is inefficiency. There is no excusing that madness.

Literally any other sacrifice gives you more than a 1 HD kid.

It's like trying to buy a house in pennies.
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I imagine most people who do so would have other reasons. But.

This is who Viserys implicitly chooses to associate himself with.
 
DragonParadox said:
I've never made it explicit in text that Dalla sacrificed children beyond the Chosen, because they didn't. It really was not worth it for the minor boons they would have gotten especially as even among the clansmen there would be people less than enthused at the prospect. It could genuinely be that it had not occurred to him until now because of how counter-intuitive it would be to sacrifice a child to the Old Gods given how they reward one for the strength of life (which is what HD is by fluff).
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Ok. If it's not happening, why is this a concern at all?

Then we are at inventing a problem that Viserys can then fix for good PR points. In essence, a costless attempt to game the Utilitarian score-card.
zxzx24 said:
Alright gimme a minute.

Viserys does not have the self awareness that you possess. Nor does everyone in the thread. There are probably a number of people who didn't connect the dots. Including Viserys if that part of the conclave is still cannon. Knowing something is possible is different from seeing it happen right in front of you. Or being told a first hand account.

Viserys would absolutely be bothered as hell by it given his many criseses over harming children in the past.

You have many times claimed an action that is an attempt to improve things is white washing or burying skeletons. Can you elaborate on how this differs from actual progress?
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Ok, are we really back at me being some kind of superhuman and thus my observations being too complicated for you? Because this is a load of bull if I ever saw one.

As for your last question, see above. We are talking apparently about a entirely fictional problem that can be fixed without cost. And yet at the same time, there will be an exit clause for Viserys to renege on that choice whenever he feels it's warranted.

This is what trying to game the system looks like.
 
Azel said:
Ok. If it's not happening, why is this a concern at all?
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Because it technically can happen and in the long ages since the Old Gods have existed it has happened, though very rarely.

Anyway you can ask the Old Gods (and Yss for that matter) not to take normal child sacrifices. The cost to them would be minor and it makes sense for Viserys to ask (and to have overlooked the possibility before now).
 
It's not a leap of logic I would have made, because quite frankly sacrificing kids seems like insane cult behavior.
 
zxzx24 said:
I imagine most people who do so would have other reasons. But.

This is who Viserys implicitly chooses to associate himself with.
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Yep. That said, it does count for something that the Old Gods don't demand sacrifices. What you choose to give to them is entirely on you. Same for Yss. Same for the Merling King.
 
DragonParadox said:
Because it technically can happen and in the long ages since the Old Gods have existed it has happened, though very rarely.

Anyway you can ask the Old Gods (and Yss for that matter) not to take normal child sacrifices. The cost to them would be minor and it makes sense for Viserys to ask (and to have overlooked the possibility before now).
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Didn't the chosen of the maiden. Who was a young child. Get sacrificed to a weirwood not too long ago?
 
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