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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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zxzx24 said:
We could tell the Old Gods to stop eating children.

[X] Allow the spirit to pass on it is clear this world pains him
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Wouldn't really work, most of the tribes that sacrifice children, are small tribes that don't have an actual spell caster, they sacrifice to the old gods, but they don't often communicate with them, so unless you expect the old gods to actively punish such sacrifices, which would be a very hard sell, it would probably take some time before the tribes noticed they weren't getting anything out of sacrificing children, and as we are in the progress of moving all those tribes anyway, by the time they noticed, they would probably already be moved out of the True North, and we certainly tell the tribes we recruit our rules.
 
Crake said:
It's not a leap of logic I would have made, because quite frankly sacrificing kids seems like insane cult behavior.
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Which is my whole problem with this. It's not a diegetic concern at all, but a strictly out of character idea with the explicit goal of giving Viserys redeeming qualities.

Does that mean I can then engineer OOC reasons to flatten a city or two, because Viserys needs more EDGE?
 
zxzx24 said:
Alright gimme a minute.

Viserys does not have the self awareness that you possess. Nor does everyone in the thread. There are probably a number of people who didn't connect the dots. Including Viserys if that part of the conclave is still cannon. Knowing something is possible is different from seeing it happen right in front of you. Or being told a first hand account.

Viserys would absolutely be bothered as hell by it given his many criseses over harming children in the past.

You have many times claimed an action that is an attempt to improve things is white washing or burying skeletons. Can you elaborate on how this differs from actual progress?
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I think that child sacrifice isn't an issue at all, dude. We have word of DP that Dalla and her people explicitly did not do it and that even among the Wildlings throughout history it has been very rare.

You're basically making a problem out of nothing, dude.
 
zxzx24 said:
Didn't the chosen of the maiden. Who was a young child. Get sacrificed to a weirwood not too long ago?
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Yes, but she was a Chosen, that falls under Dany and Aegon exception, a child who is more than their chronological age.

tarrangar said:
Wouldn't really work, most of the tribes that sacrifice children, are small tribes that don't have an actual spell caster, they sacrifice to the old gods, but they don't often communicate with them, so unless you expect the old gods to actively punish such sacrifices, which would be a very hard sell, it would probably take some time before the tribes noticed they weren't getting anything out of sacrificing children, and as we are in the progress of moving all those tribes anyway, by the time they noticed, they would probably already be moved out of the True North, and we certainly tell the tribes we recruit our rules.
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Most Free Folk tribes do not sacrifice children... at least not to the Old Gods. There are colder beings who grant far greater boons for those sacrifices.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Yes, but she was a Chosen, that falls under Dany and Aegon exception, a child who is more than their chronological age.



Most Free Folk tribes do not sacrifice children... at least not to the Old Gods. There are colder beings who grant far greater boons for those sacrifices.
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What did Crastor get for all those sacrificed babies, btw? Just his unique class which the Old Gods looted?
 
DragonParadox said:
Yes, but she was a Chosen, that falls under Dany and Aegon exception, a child who is more than their chronological age.
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Brienne certainly chose to take on adult responsibilities, but that does not make her an adult. Dany was not for quite a while either. Wether she was or not is a call only you can make.

Azel said:
Ok. If it's not happening, why is this a concern at all?

Then we are at inventing a problem that Viserys can then fix for good PR points. In essence, a costless attempt to game the Utilitarian score-card.

Ok, are we really back at me being some kind of superhuman and thus my observations being too complicated for you? Because this is a load of bull if I ever saw one.

As for your last question, see above. We are talking apparently about a entirely fictional problem that can be fixed without cost. And yet at the same time, there will be an exit clause for Viserys to renege on that choice whenever he feels it's warranted.

This is what trying to game the system looks like.
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This deserves an answer but I am a bit stretched at the moment.
 
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[X] Allow the spirit to pass on it is clear this world pains him

Oh, screw it. Xor is too precious to taint with our looting tendencies
 
DragonParadox said:
Of course, but the thing is the Old Gods are not bound by the laws of the Empire. They will happily take what Imperial law considers inocents child or no. This if I understand @zxzx24's intent correctly would be asking them not to take innocent children sacrifices at all.
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Could we instead ask them to tell us when children are sacrificed to them? Or do they have rules ,about not giving incriminating information about people feeding them? Because if a child is in the hand of someone who will sacrifice children, being fed to the old gods is one of the better options, and will be so all the more in the future, when almost all old god worshippers will live under our laws or the laws of our allies, and so such sacrifice will be an illegal act.

If the child is getting sacrificed either way, which seem likely to be the case for child sacrifices to the old gods in the future, I would rather prospective cultists feed them to the old gods than Daemons, and if the old gods then even tell us, that someone sacrificed a child that's even better, as it might allow us to catch criminals early.
DragonParadox said:
Most Free Folk tribes do not sacrifice children... at least not to the Old Gods. There are colder beings who grant far greater boons for those sacrifices.
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I would think they would do it occasionally in the winter, a tribe don't have enough food to survive the winter with the current amount of mouths, the elders have already sacrificed themselves, and the adults are needed for the tribe to survive at all, so for the tribe to survive at all, some of the children must die.

The traditional way to handle that, would be to abandon the children in the woods, but between the fact that leaving the child in the snow, is pretty much giving it to the Others, and the fact that sacrificing them to the old gods, will both make it more likely the child get into the proper afterlife, and grant the tribe a small measure of the old gods appreciation, I would expect some tribes, have sacrificing a child they can't care for as the way to do such things, as opposed to the traditional leave the child in the woods.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by egoo on May 26, 2020 at 3:23 PM, finished with 80 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] Allow the spirit to pass on it is clear this world pains him
    [X] Try to talk the spirit into lingering there is yet joy to be found in this world and his arts might be put to good use
    -[X] Talk about how that Rhoynar people still live and even now are working together in empire to reclaim old lands, surely he wants to meet them if nothing else?
    [X] Try to talk the spirit into lingering there is yet joy to be found in this world and his arts might be put to good use
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tarrangar said:
I would think they would do it occasionally in the winter, a tribe don't have enough food to survive the winter with the current amount of mouths, the elders have already sacrificed themselves, and the adults are needed for the tribe to survive at all, so for the tribe to survive at all, some of the children must die.
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If you are at the point of sacrificing your children generally the tribe is usually doomed anyway and for those still inclined to try... other things whisper in their dreams of far greater boons they might get.

zxzx24 said:
Brienne certainly chose to take on adult responsibilities, but that does not make her an adult. Dany was not for quite a while either. Wether she was or not is a call only you can make.
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I'm just pointing out why Viserys would see it as different.

Anyway I think we have run the conversation as far as it can go, Viserys position and values in the matter have been established as have what you could choose to do about the matter.
 
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DragonParadox said:
His magic and the service of various undead and winter-touched.
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Winter seems like a bad boss to work for. All that work making babies, keeping a stable crop of breeding stock alive, and sacrificing said babies by fighting off said pissed off breeding stock/keeping said stock from killing themselves, all for what basically amounts to some hired help and not even enough magic to stop him from being chopped on a tree by one of the few kids he didn't kill.

Meanwhile the Old Gods do all that and more and all you have to do is sacrifice things that would kill you for breathing and have the added bonus of not having to be made/farmed by yourself previously.

This poor bastard spent his life raising cows when he could have just gone to Steak n' Shake.
 
DragonParadox said:
If you are at the point of sacrificing your children generally the tribe is usually doomed anyway and for those still inclined to try... other things whisper in their dreams of far greater boons they might get.



I'm just pointing out why Viserys would see it as different.

Anyway I think we have run the conversation as far as it can go, Viserys position and values in the matter have been established as have what you could choose to do about the matter.
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When the whole "Old Greybeards go out to hunt" happens do some decide to expedite the process and stab themselves onto a tree? I mean it would make sense. You get a decent boon for your kids (cause you are dead) and you die on your own terms.
 
See this why i think we should play viseryis as a hypocrite, it avoids all this talk about needing justification and just lets us do whatever we want, which i mu case is to try and white knight a bit more but thats a beside the point.


Vote for hypocritical viseryis he would end all morality discussions forever.



/s
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
When the whole "Old Greybeards go out to hunt" happens do some decide to expedite the process and stab themselves onto a tree? I mean it would make sense. You get a decent boon for your kids (cause you are dead) and you die on your own terms.
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Considering you've got verified proof of the afterlife that basically amounts to an expedited retirement.

Bit painful mind you, but probably less painful than waiting for your body to fail and you've got the added bonus of pleasing your bosses.

Sure you become one with a gestalt, but there's a price for everything.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
When the whole "Old Greybeards go out to hunt" happens do some decide to expedite the process and stab themselves onto a tree? I mean it would make sense. You get a decent boon for your kids (cause you are dead) and you die on your own terms.
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Most hunters who go out are trying to die while also trying to succeed. Most expect that if they do encounter something out in the woods, it will probably kill them, or they will die trying to bring the kill back since it is harsh outside.
 
Acolyte said:
Vote for hypocritical viseryis he would end all morality discussions forever.
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Or we could just stop bringing it up because it doesn't really matter in the long run.

Seriously, we're dragon Doctor Doom fighting against the literal oblivion of the multiverse, I'm not about to spend hours arguing over baby murder that will, by rights, not even be a factor of IC discussion because it's both a waste of time, energy, annoys the far more valuable allies we've accrued, and would never rationally come up for a vote because we're too busy punching Winter/the Fae/Squilliam Fancyson/Repeatedly Tiamat/Possibly Unicron in the face.
 
Azel said:
Could we just drop this manufactured problem?

This is precisely why it's so frustrating to talk about morality in this thread.
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Let me try to explain how I got here.

I raised the point of Viserys ideology having feet of clay.

I was asked to provide an example.

I thought back to the conclave where Lucan criticized Viserys choice to associate with gods who eat children.

My thought was. "Alright fair criticism thats pretty bad."

I presented that issue again and everything caught fire.

I was not under the impression this was a manufactured issue. Because it had been brought up in the text of the thread. I assumed that lended the criticism some legitimacy.

Now both yourself and dragon paradox are claiming that this is not an issue.

And now I am trying to explain myself in a way that probably makes me look like a crazy person because I have low confidence in my ability to actually meaningfully convey what I am saying.
 
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