Do Lucan and Viserys both have messiah complexes? I mean from my understanding of the term it seems that way as they both hold the belief that they are to be the destined saviour and all that.
It's somewhere on the scale.

Let's look at it this way. The source of all of this stems from both being self-centered. Maybe even arrogant.

Lucan thinks if Westeros isn't Lawful Good in moral anchorage, it's not worth saving. No dynamic thought there. If immoral means are used to save moral people, the people are immoral for abetting and aiding it. Doesn't matter if 90% of the people in Westeros just want to be left the fuck alone. Lucan doesn't care.

Viserys thinks that most, if not all people, aren't capable of saving the world, or meeting the challenges necessary to do this. He believes some people are competent and can do their job, but certainly believes they could do it better by serving him and following his orders.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by egoo on May 26, 2020 at 11:07 AM, finished with 51 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Plan Xoromancy
    -[X] Xor casts Inner Beauty on himself, hopefully revealing to the Ghosts his truly benevolent nature, then pleads with them to cease their attacks. He has no desire to fight them if not absolutely necessary. They have already shown by their restrained and nonlethal actions against the settlers that they are not typical, revenge-driven Ghosts. This assumes Xor has already cast his Voice of the Dragon and Air of Nobility spells prior to attempting to make contact.
    -[X] If the Ghosts continue to attack Xor after he tries to talk them down:
    --[X] Mercy targets one of the attackers with her Manyjaws spell and Valaena targets the same one with a Magic Missiles spell.
    --[X] Xor uses Celerity to Teleport down to the shore with Shara and Argo. As soon as he is able after recovering from using Celerity, he targets one of the attackers with his Unicorn Arrow spell, directing all four Force arrows at the same Ghost Valaena targeted.
    [X] Shara Rogare Level Up
    -[X] Class: +1 Shadow Thief of Amn
    -[X] Skills (8 points): +4 Hide, +4 Move Silently
 
the desire for revenge
stark "us vs. them"-mentality has led to.
This sums up a lot of Viserys issues pretty well.

Makes me wish we would have had the chance to learn this stuff in character.

Viserys is a totalitarian strongman
Ill throw that on the list of excellent reasons not to become a god.

but it was easy to steer the character by appealing to this desire for power and throwing some Utilitarian justifications over it while selling the axiom that power is necessary, thus actions geared to amass power are moral.
And that in the end. Is what broke me. Not seeing how totalitarian dictators form in the quest, but seeing those same techniques blow through all resistance like cardboard in real life.

Still educational though.

Given that the thread as a whole has about as much interest in engaging with Lucan as it has an interest in eating a bowl full of rusty razor blades and glass shards, the odds of this ever being discovered IC are pretty slim. It was pretty much planned that this would get out during the Conclave, but people focused on whacking him instead of trying to figure out what his deal was and why he was so different from the stories about him.
I hope the opportunity eventually arises for us to have more peaceful interaction with him so that we might learn about him IC.
Man I hope so.

I always kind of... Got the impression that Viserys, and the empire that is an extension of him. Have feet of clay?

(I have always felt?) There are some big serious asshole issues with Viserys and the empire that is an extension of himself. I can't say what will happen if he never faces these issues. Or even learns of them.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by egoo on May 26, 2020 at 11:07 AM, finished with 51 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Plan Xoromancy
    -[X] Xor casts Inner Beauty on himself, hopefully revealing to the Ghosts his truly benevolent nature, then pleads with them to cease their attacks. He has no desire to fight them if not absolutely necessary. They have already shown by their restrained and nonlethal actions against the settlers that they are not typical, revenge-driven Ghosts. This assumes Xor has already cast his Voice of the Dragon and Air of Nobility spells prior to attempting to make contact.
    -[X] If the Ghosts continue to attack Xor after he tries to talk them down:
    --[X] Mercy targets one of the attackers with her Manyjaws spell and Valaena targets the same one with a Magic Missiles spell.
    --[X] Xor uses Celerity to Teleport down to the shore with Shara and Argo. As soon as he is able after recovering from using Celerity, he targets one of the attackers with his Unicorn Arrow spell, directing all four Force arrows at the same Ghost Valaena targeted.
    [X] Shara Rogare Level Up
    -[X] Class: +1 Shadow Thief of Amn
    -[X] Skills (8 points): +4 Hide, +4 Move Silently
 
Interlude DCCCIII: As Waters Part
As Waters Part

Fourteenth Day of the First Month 294 AC

Ghoyan Drohe, New City

Since the moment of her birth and in the memories-before that were hers and not hers Mercy had seen many works of magic terrible and beautiful. She had seen the servants of Winter hollow and hungering and she had seen a new god rise to many-colored skies, but until that day above the waters of the Little Rhoyne she had never seen something quite as beautiful and strange.

There was no halo of heavenly light around the Spectator, revealing the purity of his purpose as he begged the dead to stop, nor did his many eyed countenance shift in any way. It was as though for a moment the mind itself could feel the truth of them unmediated by sight or smell, touch or taste, a truth beyond form, entrancing and almost painful to behold.

Wonder in knowing and becoming sang without voice through the ether and other things beside for which there were no words, but which left soft imprints on one's thoughts like a bright dream lost in waking.

"Stop!" the hesitant spirit called out towards the others in the Rhoynar tongue, the first time it had spoken aloud, though alas it did not seem to sway them, too lost to their vision of rage.

Ichor bleeding from his wounds one eye-stalk twisted from a vicious blow and the Spectator vanished between one moment and the next to reappear behind Shara and Argo.

Daggers of light burned Mercy's fingers as she cast them upon the closest of raging spirits. It didn't have to be this way, but so it was and so she would fight.

High above Valaena flickered into full visibility, though looking strange indeed atop a still unseen Dawnfyre her own bolts of arcane fire raining down upon the spirit she had wounded. It did not fade, and Shara's alchemical capsule passed through the specter without harming it at all.

The two water-weavers fell upon the shore cursing dead Valyria and all its works, obviously still intent to strike down Xor, but Argo was there. The minotaur may not have known much of magic or the history that had driven these lost souls to attack, but he knew his task well, protect his companions, with spell-steel axe and living shield or with his own flesh come to that. He weathered the rain of blows and with a roar of defiance brought his axe down upon the wounded spirit, cutting one across the chest and once in a great overhead cut that briefly left the head floating separate from the body before vanishing.

Again Mercy wove her magic into daggers of arcane light, the air alive with silent blades fit to cut the spirit. A healer she may have been but she knew well the lesson her mother had learned upon her first battleground. Killing the enemy before he can do more harm is the best healing one can do before the fight is done.

Valaena worked her own magic to try to slay the last foe, but it was Xor who ended the battle, arrow upon arrow of silver fire flying forth from his great eye as he sang them into being. Still the foe would not die, turning its fury upon a bloodied Argo, his wounds covered in a shin sheen of frost that cracked and tore at flesh...

A torrent of water rose from the river, drowning the spirit with a look of betrayal on his face.

The last remaining water mage, the one who had chosen not to fight until the last when he had struck down his companion looked down at his hands... no, at the river in horror. "I apologize... we... we don't belong here... I don't understand what's happening... but it's not, you're not the Freehold. I should be gone now, leave the water flowing clear, life for the living is meant."

"I apologize, I wish I had found the right words, the right form," the Spectator said softly as Mercy tended to Argo. He paused, clearly uncertain if he should say something more or let the specter fade away.

What does Xor do?

[] Try to talk the spirit into lingering there is yet joy to be found in this world and his arts might be put to good use

[] Allow the spirit to pass on it is clear this world pains him


OOC: No need to provide reasoning here, this is not Viserys so I want to keep the choices less detailed.
 
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Viserys is amassing power and constructing situations where the alternatives to amassing power are a net-loss for all parties. He doesn't try to form alternatives outside of the context of the situation one currently finds oneself in. Doesn't even try to jump through twenty hoops just to fine the ONE hard path that might work and still fall within the same moral standards as one would characterize somebody who neither seeks personal gain or enrichment, or leaves it impossible to find a non-ruthless solution to a problem.

Rather
, Viserys finds the solution he knows, or is mostly certain will work, and knows will not cause the ruination of all of his other plans even if it fails.

This is all formed on the basis that he doesn't find anything wrong with his own reasoning, and conflicting viewpoints are just a spectrum of "currently incorrect, could be convinced to my point of view or adapt their own to suit my needs".

There is no just "do things how the other people want to do them". It doesn't always mean "deny people the chance to have autonomy or the ability to make their own decisions". He isn't anti-freedom, but he's certainly not pro-democracy. He will do things his way, and the problem is, the actions he takes effects everyone. Even someone who doesn't want to follow his path can't just leave him alone, by their very nature he will shape the world around him. Someone who wants to do things their own way, by Viserys' very nature, have to put an end to his actions in order for their own path to prevail or make significant headway, if they cannot integrate those same motives within the confines of the social, economic, political landscape the Viserys paints.

This can either be construed as an innate problem, that our motivations are brittle, or that we have so little room for compromise that even though our motivations are mostly rational and we're completely unable to be reasoned with, it means that there is very little reason to trust us when we show a degree of contempt for other people's efforts that we don't try to reach out to the them first.

This might seem somewhat hypocritical from our perspective, because why should we have to bend over backwards to the point that we need to stop all of our plans and negotiate with other people first?

But from their perspective we are scary, even in a social context. Viserys is notoriously persuasive. There could be a fear of being left little recourse, or worse, us convincing their allies of our own plans to their detriment.
 
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Ill think on it more, but.

Are we ever going to deal with the fact that the old gods eat children?

edit:
Getting Viserys to endorse that behavior could be... eh.

We have made child sacrifices illegal...if it is happening outside the empire then we kinda can't do much there. And also if Yss was offered a baby as a sacrifice he would eat it too. Same with the Merling King...if the baby was infected with Far Realm goo.
 
It's somewhere on the scale.

Let's look at it this way. The source of all of this stems from both being self-centered. Maybe even arrogant.

Lucan thinks if Westeros isn't Lawful Good in moral anchorage, it's not worth saving. No dynamic thought there. If immoral means are used to save moral people, the people are immoral for abetting and aiding it. Doesn't matter if 90% of the people in Westeros just want to be left the fuck alone. Lucan doesn't care.

Viserys thinks that most, if not all people, aren't capable of saving the world, or meeting the challenges necessary to do this. He believes some people are competent and can do their job, but certainly believes they could do it better by serving him and following his orders.
This is not quite true.

Lucan isn't assuming he can or even tries to save Westeros, let alone thinking it unworthy. He thinks that mere survival isn't enough, but that somebody needs to fight for the soul of the continent. Someone needs to attempt to make it better instead of just having it survive like the Father is fighting for.

So he picked up that fight, seeing far too few if any others who tried to improve the morality of Westeros. At the same time he tries not to center this on himself or any teachings if his, but on waking the desire and giving the people the chance to find their own answers.

Instead of writing a new holy book or trying to gather a huge flock of followers like the classical self-appointed messiah, he used the Conclave to empower the lay-clergy and asked people to look for their own answers.
 
We have made child sacrifices illegal...if it is happening outside the empire then we kinda can't do much there. And also if Yss was offered a baby as a sacrifice he would eat it too. Same with the Merling King...if the baby was infected with Far Realm goo.
Not really. We restricted sacrifice to people who have committed crimes against the soul, followed proscribed gods or committed crimes against humanity at large. Age is not relevant to that and Faegon was sacrificed despite his youth, because he was guilty as fuck by those measures.
 
Not really. We restricted sacrifice to people who have committed crimes against the soul, followed proscribed gods or committed crimes against humanity at large. Age is not relevant to that and Faegon was sacrificed despite his youth, because he was guilty as fuck by those measures.

So, in essence, we don't sacrifice people in general unless they meet the specific criteria of the cultist, abomination or anti-christ (Is Aegon an anti-christ?)?
 
Wouldn't this lead to schism central? Different interpretations of the same god and all that?
Potentially. He is willing to risk that, since he accepts that trying to change the faith for the better will expose it to risks, but that this is preferable to the strongman dictating from above.

Lucan is aware of the Lawful tendency of self-righteousness. Interacting with CG Maidens Chosen helps in that regard.
So, in essence, we don't sacrifice people in general unless they meet the specific criteria of the cultist, abomination or anti-christ (Is Aegon an anti-christ?)?
Aegon is was bit of everything.
 
[X] Try to talk the spirit into lingering there is yet joy to be found in this world and his arts might be put to good use

Come on, as if DP could expect us to vote differently
 
As Waters Part

Fourteenth Day of the First Month 294 AC

Ghoyan Drohe, New City

Since the moment of her birth and in the memories-before that were hers and not hers, Mercy had seen many works of magic both terrible and beautiful. She had seen the servants of Winter, hollow and hungering, and she had seen a new god rise to many-colored skies, but until that day above the waters of the Little Rhyone, she had never seen something quite as beautiful and strange.

There was no halo of heavenly light around the Spectator, revealing the purity of his purpose as he begged the dead to stop, nor did his many-eyed countenance shift in any way. It was as though for a moment the mind itself could feel the truth of them unmediated by sight or smell, touch or taste, a truth beyond form, entrancing and almost painful to behold.

Wonder in knowing and becoming, sang without voice through the ether and other things besides, for which there were no words, but which left soft imprints on one's thoughts like a bright dream lost in waking.

"Stop!" the hesitant spirit called out towards the others in the Rhoynar tongue, the first time it had spoken aloud, though alas it did not seem to sway them, too lost to their vision of rage.

Ichor bleeding from his wounds one eye-stalk twisted from a vicious blow the Spectator vanished between one moment and the next to reappear behind Shara and Argo.

Daggers of light burned Mercy's fingers as she cast them upon the closest of raging spirits. It didn't have to be this way, but so it was and so she would fight.

High above Valaena flickered into full visibility, though looking strange indeed atop a still unseen Dawnfyre her own bolts of arcane fire raining down upon the spirit she had wounded. It did not fade, and Shara's alchemical shot passed through the specter without harming it at all.

The two water-weavers fell upon the shore, cursing dead Valyria and all its works, obviously still intent to strike down Xor, but Argo was there. The minotaur may not have known much of magic or the history that had driven these lost souls to attack, but he knew his task well, to protect his companions, with spell-steel axe and living shield or with his own flesh should it come to that. He weathered the rain of blows and with a roar of defiance brought his axe down upon the wounded spirit cutting once across the chest and once in a great overhead cut that briefly left the head floating separate from the body before vanishing.

Again Mercy wove her magic into daggers of arcane light, the air alive with silent blades fit to cut the spirit. A healer she may have been, but she knew well the lesson her mother had learned upon her first battleground. Killing the enemy before he can do more harm is the best healing one can do before the fight is done.

Valaena worked her own magic to try to slay the last foe, but it was Xor who ended the battle, arrow upon arrow of silver fire flying forth from his great eye as he sang them into being. Still the foe would not die turning its fury upon a bloodied Argo, his wounds covered in a shin sheen of frost that cracked and tore at flesh...

A torrent of water rose from the river drowning the spirit with a look of betrayal on his face.

The last remaining water mage, the one who had chosen not to fight, until the last when he had struck down his companion looked own at his hands... no at the river in horror. "I apologize... we... we don't belong here... I don't understand what's happening... but it's not, you're not the Freehold. I should be gone now, leave the water flowing clear, life for the living is meant."

"I apologize, I wish I had found the right words, the right form," the Spectator said softly as Mercy tended to Argo. He paused clearly uncertain if he should say something more or let the specter fade away.

What does Xor do?

[] Try to talk the spirit into lingering, there is yet joy to be found in this world and his arts might be put to good use

[] Allow the spirit to pass on it is clear this world pains him


OOC: No need to provide reasoning here, this is not Viserys so I want to keep the choices less detailed. Not yet edited.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
 
[X] Try to talk the spirit into lingering there is yet joy to be found in this world and his arts might be put to good use
 
We have acrued more than enough power to make it so if we wished to do so.

We just don't want to. Presumably because it would mean acknowledging our alliance with beings that see no issue with eating babies.
As far as I'm concerned that has always been acknowledged. I for one never sugar-coated that fact either.
 
Faegon was sacrificed despite his youth, because he was guilty as fuck by those measures.

And for what? A measly temporary radar to the location of some dumb low level wizards, and a couple of dragons, of which one escaped anyway...

We could have a had a Five-colored Five-headed hydra that argues with it's own alignment, or another apostate of Tiamat, but nooo! We need to get every single one of those cultists, which would have died anyway.

But that's another whole new tangent, and so whatever.
 
We have acrued more than enough power to make it so if we wished to do so.

We just don't want to. Presumably because it would mean acknowledging our alliance with beings that see no issue with eating babies.
We do want to make child sacrifice illegal outside the Empire, we just don't want to do it at too high a cost, which mean things like going around to every Wildling tribe and telling them to not do it, is too high a cost in time for now, but we do try to stop such practices where we can afford to.

The problem is that we have a hundred draws on our time, and only so much time to give, and preventing the sacrifice of 5 children, is lower priority than preventing the sale of a thousand children to Baator(happening in Slavers Bay) which again is lower priority than ensuring our Empire don't break down.

But we don't generally agree with child sacrifice, we just don't feel we have the free time, to go forbid every small Wildling tribe from doing it.
 
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We have acrued more than enough power to make it so if we wished to do so.

We just don't want to. Presumably because it would mean acknowledging our alliance with beings that see no issue with eating babies.

No we really don't. There are hundreds of Wilding tribes beyond the Wall. We can't just snap them out of existence. The most we can do is ask the Old Gods to not accept such a thing...which they would refuse because of their nature.
 
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