...

Well that was... depressing. Three beings driven by their own hopes and desires and doing what they view is 'correct'.

Ultimately, none of them are right or wrong.

I would say that all of them have their good points and their bad according to the paradigm they work in. There are a lot of things I don't like about ASOIAF, the often slapped together cultural and religious world-building, the occasionally thinly veiled moralizing using the fates of characters I don't care about, but there are a lot of things I love and the reason why I wrote a several million word fanfiction, and one of the major ones for me has been the exploration of the subjective nature of one's own PoV and the way that paints a world in shades of grey much more convincingly than just setting out to write a character that is somehow halfway between one point of objective good and another of objective evil.
 
Last edited:
And it's really, really disheartening that everyone (or at least everyone who bothered to say anything at all about this storyline) just assumes that he desired the destruction of Heaven without sparing even one moment to think if this would actually be in character for him, because obvious badguys are obvious badguys and nor reflection is ever necessary.
It's very early in the states right now, so a lot of people haven't had a chance to read it yet. I'm in the middle of writing something up, so I haven't taken a break to read over it yet, either. Give it some time.
 
It's very early in the states right now, so a lot of people haven't had a chance to read it yet. I'm in the middle of writing something up, so I haven't taken a break to read over it yet, either. Give it some time.
I was referring to the history of the Sundering, which was narrated a year ago and somehow generally abbreviated as Asmodeus destroying the universe for personal gain.

Which is flat wrong, but apparently the only take on ut anyone here has, which has been driving me up the wall for ages.
 
Okay, since I'm getting really tired of this entirely unreflected way of viewing at things, let me spell it out clearly:

This is not what happened. Asmodeus did not actively destroy the universe for shits and giggles. He was acting in accordance with his own beliefs and desires and in response to events around him.

And it's really, really disheartening that everyone (or at least everyone who bothered to say anything at all about this storyline) just assumes that he desired the destruction of Heaven without sparing even one moment to think if this would actually be in character for him, because obvious badguys are obvious badguys and nor reflection is ever necessary.
He probably didn't desire the destruction of Heaven, but facts remain that he allied with the Void, it was probably a case of him miscalculating, but that just prove that he's not sufficiently competent, in choosing who to ally with.

I wasn't saying things turned out as he wanted, I was saying that his rampant greed caused him to make a mistake at least as damaging as Heavens lack of compromise, Asmodeus worked with the Void, and the Void shattered the Spheres, he probably didn't want this outcome, but his overconfidence was part of what caused it anyway, which show that compromising too much, can be as bad or worse than not compromising enough.

I'm just saying that the shattering of the Spheres, equally show the flaws in the ideals of Heaven and Hell, sure the only ones aside from the Void, who wanted the outcome they got was the Daemons, but just because Hell didn't mean for it to end this way, don't mean they weren't part of the reason it ended this way.
 
Last edited:
He probably didn't desire the destruction of Heaven, but facts remain that he allied with the Void, it was probably a case of him miscalculating, but that just prove that he's not sufficiently competent, in choosing who to ally with.

I wasn't saying things turned out as he wanted, I was saying that his rampant greed caused him to make a mistake at least as damaging as Heavens lack of compromise, Asmodeus worked with the Void, and the Void shattered the Spheres, he probably didn't want this outcome, but his overconfidence was part of what caused it anyway, which show that compromising too much, can be as bad or worse than not compromising enough.
And I repeat: You are wrong. Word of god, since I wrote that part of the storyline, that Asmodeus did not intentionally or unintentionally cause the sundering of Heaven. The matter is significantly more complex then that, tying both into original fall of Asmodeus, his motivations for leading his followers to Baator, his plans for the universe in general and ultimately who he is and what he desires. To say nothing about the very complex series of events that led up to this event, what happened during it and what everyone did afterwards.

This was even openly put into the relevant update, clearly stating that people were just narrating the events they knew about and could not even guess at the true motivations and plans of the participants or what had been going on behind the scenes.

It's physically painful to me that all the time, effort and thought I poured into this is getting swept away by willful ignorance, caused by people just wanting to cast Asmodeus as a one dimensional villain and maybe a trite cliche about hubris.
 
Last edited:
And I repeat: You are wrong. Word of god, since I wrote that part of the storyline, that Asmodeus did not intentionally or unintentionally cause the sundering of Heaven. The matter is significantly more complex then that, tying both into original fall of Asmodeus, his motivations for leading his followers to Baator, his plans for the universe in general and ultimately who he is and what he desires. To say nothing about the very complex series of events that led up to this event, what happened during it and what everyone did afterwards.

This was even openly put into the relevant update, clearly stating that people were just narrating the events they knew about and could not even guess at the true motivations and plans of the participants or what had been going on behind the scenes.

It's physically painful to me that all the time, effort and thought I poured into this is getting swept away by willful ignorance, caused by people just wanting to cast Asmodeus as a one dimensional villain and maybe a trite cliche about hubris.
I'm not casting him as an one dimensional villain, I'm just saying that unless history is entirely false, and Baator didn't ally with the Void, then Asmodeus did make a mistake, he probably had a grand plan, but he fucked up just as everyone else did.

I'm not trying to cast him as an one dimensional villain, I'm trying to say that Asmodeus too is a flawed being, and made mistakes during the sundering.

We don't know what went wrong, we don't know what Asmodeus plan was, but we do know that Hell worked with the Void for a time, and that they didn't oppose the Void, until after the Sundering had begun.

Why that is we can only guess at, but we know that Hell is not blameless in the Sundering.
 
Last edited:
I'm not casting him as an one dimensional villain, I'm just saying that unless history is entirely false, and Baator didn't ally with the Void, then Asmodeus did make a mistake, he probably had a grand plan, but he fucked up just as everyone else did.

I'm not trying to cast him as an one dimensional villain, I'm trying to say that Asmodeus too is a flawed being, and made mistakes during the sundering.
... I'm definitely unable to say anything more on this without dropping fucktons of spoilers with every breath, so I'll just quietly grind my teeth and seethe at you ...
 
Here's my proposal for Xor's next PRC once he caps out Beholder of Wonders. It's loosely inspired by the Occular Master PRC from Dragon Magazine #313. Since Xor's spellcasting abilities won't progress after he finishes Beholder of Wonders, this seems like a viable way for him to progress that still increases the effectiveness of his magic.

Occular Spell Master
Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks, Spot 12 ranks
Spells: Ability to cast 5th level Arcane spells
Race: Spectator Beholderkin
Special: The Spectator must have the Occular Spell spell ability, either learned by a feat or class feature.

Frequently considered lesser Beholderkin by most beings, especially by other Beholders, Spectators have been forced to learn how to harness the comparatively meager powers of their Eye Rays in unusual ways if they wish to survive among the dangerous Planes their curiosity often drives them to explore. Occular Spell Masters work to improve their Eye Rays and hard won Occular spellcasting abilities, learning how to focus, extend, modify, and eventually combine them to potentially devastating effect.

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 4 + Int

Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Knowledge (All) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis).

Class Features:
Occular Focus: The Spectator's focus on improving the efficacy of its Eyes Rays significantly enhances their accuracy, though their ability to attack in a more physical manner suffers as a result. The Spectator does not advance its Base Attack Bonus for any level gained in Occular Spell Master, but it gains a +1 bonus to Ranged Attack Rolls per level. This bonus applies only to the Spectator's Eye Rays and any spell it converts into an Occular Spell.

Occular Reach: All Eye Rays produced by the Spectator, Occular Spells included, increase in range by 20 feet per level of Occular Spell Master.

Occular Metamagic: At 2nd and 4th level, the Spectator learns to apply one of the variant Sudden Metamagic effects (Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, etc.) to its Occular Spells. The selected Sudden Metamagic feat can be used once per day, unless the same feat is selected at both 2nd and 4th level, which allows it to be used up to three times per day.

Powerful Vision: At 3rd level, the Spectator gains the Ability Focus feat for its Eye Rays. This does not affect the saving throw DC for its Occular Spells.

Occular Convergence: Whenever the Spectator strikes a single enemy with more than one Eye Ray or Occular Spell, or a combination of the two, in a single round, the saving throw DC for each effect is increased by +2 and their caster level is increased by +5 for the purpose of overcoming Spell Resistance.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Class Features Occular Focus
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Occular Focus, Occular Reach +1
2nd +0 +0 +0 +3 Occular Metamagic +2
3rd +0 +1 +1 +3 Powerful Vision +3
4th +0 +1 +1 +4 Occular Metamagic +4
5th +0 +1 +1 +4 Occular Convergence +5
 
@Azel, for what it's worth, I found the Hellven storyline the best one in the quest so far.

Whether people misrepresent it partially or completely, it made the quest far richer for merely being here.

So, again, thank you for having written it.

Asmodeus...
Well, we dont know jack shit about him IC, away from what other settings set him up as, so me defaulting to a state of thinking is, as such, "he is an asshole and we should try to kill him", just like with every other unknown.

...Not in the least because I expect him to be entirely out of our league in every single regard, and being quite afraid of any confrontation turning fuckfest.

No offense meant by that, but we simply havent looked closely enough to know otherwise.
And then it is all hate-train from there, really :/

Thank you for the analysis on Yrael and Lucan.
I'm not the most attentive reader between the lines... or at all... at the best of times, and their story beats happened... well, there was a lot to unpack when either happened.
 
Last edited:
But we got a character poised to become the supreme, quasi-deity ruler of most of humanity, because this is where the desire for revenge, the lust for power and a stark "us vs. them"-mentality has led to.


TL;DR

Don't drink the Utilitarianism cool-aid. It leads to bad places.
For the record I am very pleased with our goals of World Domination. :D If I had a choice to do everything the same I'd probably go for it. We've made great progress in conquering the plane.
 
Asmodeus...
Well, we dont know jack shit about him IC, away from what other settings set him up as, so me defaulting to a state of thinking is, as such, "he is an asshole and we should try to kill him", just like with every other unknown.
Not in the least because I expect him to be entirely out of our league in every single regard, and being quite afraid of any confrontation turning fuckest.
N
o offense meant by that, but we simply havent looked closely enough to know otherwise.
And then it is all hate-train from there, really :/
The tragedy of it is that while the information is out there, even planned down to particular encounters, there hasn't been even an intent to follow that questline over the last year. Which is a bloody shame and makes me regret the whole Slavers Bay events, since those were deeply tied with that.

However, I'm no longer Co-QM, so that's out my hands either way. Which makes me even more frustrated with everything, since I would still love to write that storyline.
 
I was referring to the history of the Sundering, which was narrated a year ago and somehow generally abbreviated as Asmodeus destroying the universe for personal gain.

Which is flat wrong, but apparently the only take on ut anyone here has, which has been driving me up the wall for ages.
My assumption was always that he tried to use the Void-attack on Heaven for his own purposes, with little thought on the damages caused.

The hurried nature of his Mobilisation makes it clear he didn't plan this.
His instant betrayal of the void-forces before they completly destroyed Heaven makes it likely he didn't want Heaven destroyed.

I think I have written that much before.

Of course what I'm missing is his reason for aiding the Void at all. Rendering Heaven unable to oppose him seems like an likely goal to me.
But it's certainly not the only option.

Regardless of intent though, the whole thing is in part his fault and his further management of Hellven doesn't speak well of him either.
 
And I repeat: You are wrong. Word of god, since I wrote that part of the storyline, that Asmodeus did not intentionally or unintentionally cause the sundering of Heaven. The matter is significantly more complex then that, tying both into original fall of Asmodeus, his motivations for leading his followers to Baator, his plans for the universe in general and ultimately who he is and what he desires. To say nothing about the very complex series of events that led up to this event, what happened during it and what everyone did afterwards.

This was even openly put into the relevant update, clearly stating that people were just narrating the events they knew about and could not even guess at the true motivations and plans of the participants or what had been going on behind the scenes.

It's physically painful to me that all the time, effort and thought I poured into this is getting swept away by willful ignorance, caused by people just wanting to cast Asmodeus as a one dimensional villain and maybe a trite cliche about hubris.
This.
The fall of Heaven has always been clearly presented as being the Void's fault, with other fations (devils, daemons, illithid, presumably local Celestials too) being involved in some mysterious sequence of events that led to the Void wrecking stuff. We don't know who was fighting who, who wanted what, and who was on what side. Presumably Asmodeus started out opposed to Heaven, but it's entirely possible that he was a desperate ally of necessity against a daemonic horde or something. We don't know what bargaining, blackmail, treaties and tactics were going on.
Furthermore, @tarrangar seems to forget that the Void is a thing with agency. It isn't just a place or power source. We've seen it act, twist minds, and coordinate goals. It's a powerful faction all on its own, and considering it a mere extension of Asmodeus is a little ridiculous.
In-thread Asmodeus has sometimes been accused of exploiting the catastrophe for personal gain while it was happening. This makes sense - "Asmodeus cleverly exploits things for personal gain, winning in the big picture somewhere else even if you think you've won" is 99% of his fluff, but we can't realistically accuse him of somehow controlling the Void.

Is it even possible to control the Void? The best we've ever seen was that Serpentfolk trap-city, which was just a win/win situation for them and the Void both in a single tightly controlled environment.
Blaming Asmodeus for Hellven is like blaming us for the night of chaos and devastation that swept Mantarys when we took over. We were indeed involved, we didn indeed want to topple the existing power structure, and we were indeed plotting and murdering. Nevertheless, blaming Viserys for Mantarys being a complete mess is a little rich : the place was already a powerkeg with multiple other factions mucking around (demons, devils, archons).

EDIT:
I was referring to the history of the Sundering, which was narrated a year ago and somehow generally abbreviated as Asmodeus destroying the universe for personal gain.

Which is flat wrong, but apparently the only take on ut anyone here has, which has been driving me up the wall for ages.

I'm not sure where you've seen this, because Tarrangar's comments are the first time I've seen it in this thread. @Artemis1992's previous post is the kind of interpretation I've seen bandied around (and agree with).
 
Last edited:
The tragedy of it is that while the information is out there, even planned down to particular encounters, there hasn't been even an intent to follow that questline over the last year. Which is a bloody shame and makes me regret the whole Slavers Bay events, since those were deeply tied with that.
Well it's not like there is a shortage of other things that need to be done.
 
I'm not sure where you've seen this, because Tarrangar's comments are the first time I've seen it in this thread.
It was mostly very low-key, off-handed remarks over the intervening year, but due to this being a sore topic for me, I'm obviously a lot more sensitive to these things.
You probably just missed it or didn't pay it any mind.

It just boiled over right now, since the whole Yrael - Lucan analysis and how Asmodeus plays into all of this had me extra on the edge for this.
 
Furthermore, @tarrangar seems to forget that the Void is a thing with agency. It isn't just a place or power source. We've seen it act, twist minds, and coordinate goals. It's a powerful faction all on its own, and considering it a mere extension of Asmodeus is a little ridiculous.
In-thread Asmodeus has sometimes been accused of exploiting the catastrophe for personal gain while it was happening. This makes sense - "Asmodeus cleverly exploits things for personal gain, winning in the big picture somewhere else even if you think you've won" is 99% of his fluff, but we can't realistically accuse him of somehow controlling the Void.
I'm not blaming him for the Void, I know the Void is a thing with agency, I'm blaming him, because the facts I have, tells me that he was at least temporarily allied with the Void, and that mean he helped them weaken the Celestial planes.

Of the guilty parties in the Sundering, he's probably amongst the least, but that don't change the fact that the Legions of Hell at least for a time marched with the Void as opposed to against the Void, if I'm wrong about that then I apologize, but if Hell marched with the Void even temporarily, then they carry some of the blame.
 
Last edited:
Yrael

His story is ultimately rather straightforward. He had been a grunt in the celestial legions during the times of the Great Empire of the Dawn, which had been a mortal run empire in Planetos and is the predecessor to Yi-Ti (though covering a much larger area). In these times, most people were Good and Righteous, or at least trying to be so. In essence, the realm was the closest a mortal society could get to achieving these high ideals. However, it didn't last and Yrael is one of those who lived through the Sundering from the mortal perspective. He was around when the realm shattered and people turned on each other, something that deeply marked him.

To him, the Upper Planes had won the great war with the establishment of the GEotD and it's millennia lasting golden age. They had fought for their morals, their principles and all the other things a proper Archon believes in and made them reality. But now he had to conceive of the notion that it didn't last. That it wasn't enough. Many other Archons fell in those days, blaming mortals to have squandered what they had in some fashion and joining Baator, or going so far into despair that they joined even the Abyss or Abaddon. Not Yrael though. He still believed that the fight could be won and while he acknowledged that the GEotD was not as flawless as he used to believe, he still thought it was the right path.

With the spheres out of order and the Upper Planes in shambles, he went into hibernation like nearly all other celestial survivors on Planetos, only reawakening upon the surge of magic returning.

Now the world he saw was pretty much the exact opposite of the good old times. Slavery, demons running wild, depravity, sin, egoism, cruelty for the sake of cruelty... He had left a world in which these things were a reality, but not where people reveled in them. So he set out to fix things as much as he could, putting on his best Archon Boyscout face and trying to improve upon the shitheap he was now ruling. But it wasn't easy. He needed to compromise. Sometimes he needed to do things that were not really just or turn a blind eye to bad things, because he needed to do what was best for everyone, not just what he felt was right.

The dissonance ultimately resolved itself when he saw the broken Heaven with his own eyes, as opposed to the second hand tales of it's defeat. He could explain away the fall of the GEotD by assuming it had flaws. He could even apologize his own questionable choices as ruler of Mantarys since he was forced to work with a world that had few if any lines it wouldn't cross. But Heaven? Heaven used to be the strongest of the Outer Planes, bolstered by the strong Lawful Good GEotD. It didn't need to compromise with anyone and yet it had fallen too.

So what did this mean? Were his ideals not enough? Was being Good and Just not a guarantee of victory as he had always believed? Or was Heaven itself flawed too? Asmodeus certainly believed so and he had given many a passionate speech about these things while he was still one of the leaders of Celestia. He had spoken of compromises that had to be made to ensure victory, of prices that were distasteful but had to be paid to beat back the Abyss. Back then they thought him wrong and they felt assured of that when he and his followers couldn't win the Bloodwar either, despite throwing out most of their ideals and turning to spite and cruelty to punish those who they felt were aiding their enemies.

But Heaven was broken and Baator reigned supreme. So had Asmodeus maybe a point? Had they failed by putting the purity of their principles above the necessities of reality? Viserys certainly seemed to believe so, because he also kept talking about necessities and pragmatism, about prices that were worth paying even if they felt wrong. To him Yrael had listened, because he was willing to entertain the notion that it would be necessary to reach again the heights of the golden age he knew. Because he saw that on the blood of fiends and monsters, above the graves of slavers and tyrants, a better future was being built. It was far from perfect and it was steeped in blood, but it was better then what came before and didn't that mean that said blood had been spilled for a good cause? Didn't the end justify the means?

And this is why he fell. Because he realized that he had followed another Asmodeus and that the leaders of Celestia of old would have cast him out just like they had before. He realized that he was willing to put aside his ideals and morals for the right price and that he no longer minded to do so. To him, the ends did now justify the means. He would take a flawed realm over the madness and chaos he had seen. He would take a law that was uncaring over one that was just another cruel tool of torment. He lacked the spite and bitterness of those that were cast out alongside Asmodeus, thus he fell not to Evil like they did, but he had lost his faith in the Good all the same.

Yrael is in the end a character who has begun, like all Archons, as a Paragon, but was tempered and in a sense lessened by reality. He will still fight for what he believes is right, but he is willing to do distasteful things to reach something that is not necessarily good, but at least good enough.

What Yrael isn't is a poor tormented soul that longs to be Good again, or some kind of hamfisted edge-lord metaphor for Good things being unable to exist in reality. He is a character with his own history, desires and personality, who has made a conscious choice to walk his current path and is happy with it, even if others can't understand it.


Lucan

He is pretty much the polar opposite of Yrael in his path. He began as the de facto enforcer of a Lawful Neutral deity. The Father told him what to do and so Lucan did these things, because what else is a servant of a god supposed to do? He had been given a direct divine mandate and orders. So he went around and preached, solved the issues of the small folk here and there and made sure that all withcraft is either brought to heel or eradicated, just as the Father wanted. For after all, how can there good witchcraft? The Seven clearly are the moral authority and they clearly condemn sorcery.

However, Lucan began to doubt. For every Charm abusing conman or cursing witch, he found a healer or some scholar who just minded his own business. Not all of these people seemed really to be bad people, but neither did they want to join the Seven. Some were willing to give up their powers, other not and the latter category he killed on orders from above. But why? Why did he have to kill a healer, just because he didn't want to become a Septon or give up his ability to help others? Was that not work pleasing to the Seven, the Maiden and the Mother in particular?

So he summoned his first few angels and they were... not quite what he was expecting. They were certainly powerful and righteous, but they had this strangeness about them that just seemed lacking in some way. They were doing things because the Father or Lucan told them to do things, be it directly or from the Seven Pointed Star, but it was as if they only went through the motions. There was no heart in it, just obedience. No real compassion for the people.

It was around this time that he had contact with Danelle's predecessor, seeking answers from his fellow Chosen. She had a quite different perspective on things, the Maiden setting quite other targets and using other tools then the Father, but while that gave him hope, it didn't answer his questions. Her death was quite a blow to him and he was in quite a crisis as a result of it. On the one hand, he was very much doubting his faith, unsure if he was somehow not understanding the work his god had given him properly, or that it maybe was some kind of test or trial for him. As a combination of his personal doubts and the desire to call forth a champion that would help other Chosen too, as his own angels were very much the Fathers and only the Fathers, he decided to call Baelor.

However, Baelor the Blessed was a mess. Neurotic, stubborn, absentminded and barely functional as a being. He slavishly obeyed the Seven Pointed Star, but could offer no insights into it, even chastised Lucan for thinking about it instead of obeying and praying to the Seven for guidance. The man was basically every issue that Lucan had with the angels of the Father, just so much worse. When Baelor then got it into his head to pray for more power and divine guidance to vanquish his own family for the crime of apostasy, he was pretty much giving up on him. At least Baelor seemed uninclined to do anything at all, instead doing day long prayer sessions before so much as leaving the room, so he assumed that as long as nobody would actually disturb the nutcase, he would stay put for the time being.

Instead he made his way to Heaven, which also for him facilitated his change of alignment, but in the other direction. Suddenly the nature of the Fathers angels and the gods own outlook on the world made sense. Here in Heaven, the Archons had arranged themselves with the reality of the Sundering, having remade their home to survive in it's diminished state. Archons weren't working with and for Baator because they had fallen, but because they had no real choice. They accepting all the little evils to stave of the bigger ones, and in doing so had compromised themselves and their ideals. The local government was endorsing things such as slave trade and heavy punishments for criminals because they had prioritized the perpetuation of the system they had by ensuring Order over the morality of it.

The Father was doing the same. He had Lucan do not what was right, but what was important to ensure the Fathers control. In of itself, the Father would not be able to or even caring to build a better society, instead cementing the one they had as "good enough". Others, like the Maiden, would still try to improve things, but Lucan had to realize that his own role had been and always would be that of a divine soldier, propping up a regime without question. But he had questions and he had learned things in Heaven. While he tried to help the people there to his best ability, he learned about both the fallibility of gods in a very visceral way, but also that gods were not immutable and would change by the outlook of their followers on them.

To him, the Father has fallen, much as Heaven has. From the ideal he had of him as the firm but benevolent figure that guides humanity, he has become little more then a tyrant. Not malicious, but neither kind, all too willing to make sacrifices and accepting to turning a blind eye to many problems plaguing Westeros and the world in general. In Lucan's opinion, that is the result of reality of Westeros, the blind obedience asked for by the nobility, aided and abetted by a Faith that is deeply steeped in politics and unwilling to truly hold up the ideals it espouses.

So for him the dissonance between his belief that he was and should be fighting for a good cause and the reality of the Father resolved himself in a commitment to become the shining leader he wanted to be, not by being handed this grace from the gods, but by earning it from his own efforts. Thus, so he hopes, he can inspire the people to better themselves and ultimately even redeem the Father. This is why he tried to decentralize the Faith in the Conclave, to make it more inclusive and more critical of itself and it's teachings. So that people can question the injustices and failings, and better themselves and the Faith for it.

And this is why Lucan will never compromise with Viserys. Because he believes that the means taint the end, as evident by how far Heaven has fallen, no matter the good intentions of it's rulers. How both Heaven and the Father have become so engrossed in games of power and control that they lost sight of the cruelty and wrongness of their means. Lucan is no longer buying into the utilitarian argument that anything can be justified, were it just to cause enough Good down the line, because he realized that you can justify absolutely everything that way. Even Baator is a necessary evil if you compare it to Abaddon, the Abyss or the Void.

So he took it upon himself to fight this fight for the sake of an ideal, not cold calculations and slippery arguments. He took it upon himself to shoulder all this weight, because it is the right thing to, knowing full well that it might and likely will break him. Because that is the one sacrifice that a true Paladin is willing to make. Himself.


So Where I'm Going With All Of This

First off, the wandering adventurer and the inspiring leader are not the same thing. Danelle and her crew are the former, going around and solving particular problems, then skedaddling back home and doing it again somewhere else. Lucan is the latter, leading by example and trying to both reach the population at large with his message and to inspire them to solve their own problems and better themselves. Leadership is not something that just happens, but something that you need to put conscious effort into. You got to have both a desire to lead and a goal to lead towards, however good or bad that goal might be.

The second important point is to differentiate the character of Kreia and the arguments she makes into two possible interpretations.

On the one hand, Kreia is a teacher, who questions the actions of others to provoke them into analyzing them and their motives for performing them. This is motive associated with Darth Sion, who is a model of a person with neither morality nor philosophical insight, but this side of the character has less bearing on what I'm talking about, so we'll not dwell on it here.

In the other interpretation, you take these arguments at face value and assume no hidden motive in posing them. In this interpretation, Kreia is an amoral Devils Advocate. She questions both the point of kindness and cruelty, arguing that they are meaningless and their consequences not predictable or even run counter to the intent of the action. This is both a refutation of the idea of Utilitarianism that the morality of actions can be quantified by looking at their outcomes, since those outcomes are too difficult to predict to facilitate an informed choice, and an argument in favor of Nihilism, by implying that because only the actor himself and his motives matter, objective morality cannot exist and all actions must and should be selfish.

This argument and the connection between Utilitarianism and Nihilism, are personified in the character of Darth Nihilus. He is a personified Utility Monster, consuming resources (in his case lives) to sate his own hunger, yet he can never be filled. Yet the argument can be and is made that this is acceptable behavior, because if you assume that his happiness is weighing greater then the happiness of those he consumes, then consuming them becomes a moral act by the strictures of Utilitarianism. Since he is a nihilist, this is the case. As nothing objectively matters, his subjective experience is the only valid value of anything he does, thus consuming entire worlds to sate his own hunger is a morally acceptable act.

This illustrates the core vulnerability of Utilitarianism. It is not a philosophy that can be used to derive morality, just a mode of thought that can be used to judge the morality of actions in relation to an assumed goal. This is cloaked by the assumption that "maximizing happiness / utility" is some objective value, but it isn't. Happiness is deeply and utterly subjective measure, which' definition can vary tremendously between different persons. Thus, as Darth Nihilus demonstrates, Utilitarianism needs to have a preexisting moral framework to be applies to and it will never produce outcomes that are better or worse then those measures you originally applied.


The conclusion here is that Utilitarian argument is unable to answer the question about the morality of a person. Morality is not a numbers game, where 1,000 fed orphans weigh up one account of rape and murder. It's not a system that can be gamed, because the system is built on basic assumptions about morality, good and evil, thus it will always be a mirror of it's own foundations. By saying a fed orphan is +1 point and raping someone is -1,000 points, I'm just rating a judgement that was already made in an attempt to either extrapolate new judgement, or to justify actions to myself. If I do not think that feeding orphans is important, it has a value of 0. If I think feeding orphans is detrimental to them by making them rely on charity (an argument made by Kreia at one point), it suddenly gets a negative value.

Therefore, any and all arguments about scale of affected change, net outcomes, the Greater Good and ends justifying means are farcical. They are justifications for actions, not valid arguments about the morality of them. If you assume that torturing criminals is a valid way to prevent others from committing crimes, then a clean decapitation of a murderer is +100 points while disemboweling him and parading the screaming carcass through the streets is +1,000 points. From the same logic I could extrapolate that, since bad things happening to bad people is good and rape is really bad, that prison rape should be encouraged, because it's +500 points of utility by scaring others away from criminality.


Viserys actions are informed by the assumption that he has the power and thus the right to makes choices for others, that he is capable to rule the world and thus should, that he is wiser and knows what is best for others, and that he is the one and only chance to prevent the apocalypse. These are the basic assumptions of his character and all other acts are justified by the means of Utilitarianism, by assuming these core axioms to be correct and "good". These very same statements can be made about a host of totalitarian dictators, because Viserys is a totalitarian strongman. If you assume that there is a Jewish world conspiracy out to kill us all, then the Nazis are right. These ideologies work because they adherents buy into the core idea and then reason that their responding actions are justified. People join such movements or cults because they think it's easy to spot ludicrous ideas like parasitic alien souls for the nonsense they are, but these ideas are the results of far more believable base concepts they too might accept without much thinking.

The reason why these arguments always turn so toxic here is that many people feel personally attacked when these ideas are challenged, because they do buy into the image of the all-wise and all-powerful strongman, as long as that strongman rides in on the right mix of core axioms. They argue in favor of virtue springing from results achieved, because they are perfectly willing to compromise their morals in the pursuit of a goal they deem worthy.


This is the idea behind Yrael, who has all the good intentions, but can be reasoned to commit all kinds of atrocities to see them come to fruition.
The other side of the coin is Lucan, who is holding his values as sacrosanct, even in the face of hardship, death and failure, because sacrificing his morality means loosing it.


So, to answer you core question, yes, it would have been an option. The thread always wanted power, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes without, but it was easy to steer the character by appealing to this desire for power and throwing some Utilitarian justifications over it while selling the axiom that power is necessary, thus actions geared to amass power are moral.

Instead, Viserys could have just helped people without second thoughts. He could have freed the slaves and helped them build their own government, instead of inserting himself as their new unquestionable and almighty overlord. He could have gone the path Lucan did, accepting the mantle of Azor Ahai and trying to use this to reshape the religion by inspiring the faithful. He could have forgiven Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister and all those others that wronged him for the sake of building alliances against the threats of the world, instead of pursuing his own revenge on them. He could have engaged with other people as equals instead of as tools and minions to be used as his leisure, or enemies to be destroyed.

But we got a character poised to become the supreme, quasi-deity ruler of most of humanity, because this is where the desire for revenge, the lust for power and a stark "us vs. them"-mentality has led to.


TL;DR

Don't drink the Utilitarianism cool-aid. It leads to bad places.

I want you to get a job at Games Workshop and write coherent stories for Warhammer 40k. You can probably save the franchise
 
The Hellven storyline is very interesting, but it's far less immediately urgent than all our current problems. Potentially losing some city-states in the East (that we haven't even conquered!) to Asmodeus would be bad, but losing what we currently have in a war against the already far more entrenched Deep Ones would be worse and seems like a more immediate threat.
Furthermore, fortifying against the Deep Ones will also come in handy against the Devils, so...

Right now our priorities go Westeros conquest -> Deep Ones. Devils and Others are problems, but aren't as immediate. Once the Deep Ones are dealt with one way or another (either we lose the war and this all becomes irrelevant, or we kick them out of our immediate sphere of influence and make them reconsider attacking in the medium term) we'll have to decide whether or not we focus on the Others or on the Devils in the east.
Right now we're mostly using the Inquisition and a few minor PC groups aginst the devils, which is useful to gather information and possibly delay their plots/takeover. This makes for interesting interludes and shows off some clever Devil plans, but IMO won't be enough to actually resolve the issue. This will require Viserys time at some point, and will probably have to be the focus of a month or two + some institutional actions (and maybe an invasion? We'll see if it's workable).
Same for the Others. We've done evacuations and will do more in the future, but whether or not we decide to attack before Winter (and if so, when and how) will also have to be decided. Thankfully things are getting less urgent for a while now that evacuation is going somewhere, so maybe we'll do the devils first depending on how things develop there.

So, to answer you core question, yes, it would have been an option. The thread always wanted power, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes without, but it was easy to steer the character by appealing to this desire for power and throwing some Utilitarian justifications over it while selling the axiom that power is necessary, thus actions geared to amass power are moral.
This is correct and it's good that it's pointed out.
You also forgot "reminding the thread that the people who currently have power are no more legitimate than you are, and insist on the urgency of serious reform due to the setting's threats", but yeah. Ths is an SV quest, and this website is full of people who like Civ quests. The desire for power and control is definitely there, even is we often vote to try to do some good once we feel we have the power well in hand.
Of course I acknowledge this without intending to stop, because I think it makes for a fun quest. We'll grab all the power we can, revel in it, and then try to soothe our consciences by improving the material conditions of the people :D

Instead, Viserys could have just helped people without second thoughts. He could have freed the slaves and helped them build their own government, instead of inserting himself as their new unquestionable and almighty overlord. He could have gone the path Lucan did, accepting the mantle of Azor Ahai and trying to use this to reshape the religion by inspiring the faithful. He could have forgiven Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister and all those others that wronged him for the sake of building alliances against the threats of the world, instead of pursuing his own revenge on them.
Pointing out that we could have allied with the incompetent Westerosi that the thread disdains and/or considers to be evil dictators is a bold move, but I like it :p
More seriously, you are of course correct. Those would also have been interesting directions for the quest to have gone. I don't regret the route we took and I'd vote for it again if given the choice (IMO those options aren't actually morally superior, except maybe the Azor Ahai one and that's not only risky, it also basically just boils down to making someone else an all-conqueringuncompromising dictator of everything and then trying to mind-control him into being nicer - if you're doing that, why not just be nice yourself and conquer everything in your own name?).

[Viserys] could have engaged with other people as equals instead of as tools and minions to be used as his leisure, or enemies to be destroyed.
This is correct. I find it amusing that you're the one to point it out, of course, mister "My avatar is a devil and I push for Viserys to cleverly wield people like tools", but then who am I to laugh? I go along with it too.

On another note, the Lucan infodump was very interesting. I'll admit that I'd have preferred to learn this IC and hope that DP will still make us work to discover it IC somehow, but reading the dump was nice. It's all rather well thought-out and clever. 10/10.
 
This is correct and it's good that it's pointed out.
You also forgot "reminding the thread that the people who currently have power are no more legitimate than you are, and insist on the urgency of serious reform due to the setting's threats", but yeah. Ths is an SV quest, and this website is full of people who like Civ quests. The desire for power and control is definitely there, even is we often vote to try to do some good once we feel we have the power well in hand.
Of course I acknowledge this without intending to stop, because I think it makes for a fun quest. We'll grab all the power we can, revel in it, and then try to soothe our consciences by improving the material conditions of the people :D
Thing is, despite the constant accusations of guilt tripping and moralizing at people, I never desired to change the trajectory of the quest either. I quite enjoy the trajectory. I merely wanted to explore the ramifications of it.
Pointing out that we could have allied with the incompetent Westerosi that the thread disdains and/or considers to be evil dictators is a bold move, but I like it :p
More seriously, you are of course correct. Those would also have been interesting directions for the quest to have gone. I don't regret the route we took and I'd vote for it again if given the choice (IMO those options aren't actually morally superior, except maybe the Azor Ahai one and that's not only risky, it also basically just boils down to making someone else an all-conqueringuncompromising dictator of everything and then trying to mind-control him into being nicer - if you're doing that, why not just be nice yourself and conquer everything in your own name?).
The Azor Ahai path would likely result in toppling the slaver cities and installing new, Lawful Good governments in it's stead, then calling upon these states during the Long Night. No need for some conqueror to unite them by force.

Likewise, you could try to make the Westerosi become better and more competent people by being obnoxiously Paragon at them.
This is correct. I find it amusing that you're the one to point it out, of course, mister "My avatar is a devil and I push for Viserys to cleverly wield people like tools", but then who am I to laugh? I go along with it too.
🤷‍♂️

I've always been pretty upfront about what I'm all about.
On another note, the Lucan infodump was very interesting. I'll admit that I'd have preferred to learn this IC and hope that DP will still make us work to discover it IC somehow, but reading the dump was nice. It's all rather well thought-out and clever. 10/10.
Given that the thread as a whole has about as much interest in engaging with Lucan as it has an interest in eating a bowl full of rusty razor blades and glass shards, the odds of this ever being discovered IC are pretty slim. It was pretty much planned that this would get out during the Conclave, but people focused on whacking him instead of trying to figure out what his deal was and why he was so different from the stories about him.
 
Interlude DCCCII: Of Tears and Blood
Of Tears and Blood

Fourteenth Day of the First Month 294 AC

Ghoyan Drohe, New City

Water was the stuff of life, it is the blood that beats in every heart, it is the mist on every breath. In the water of the womb are men born and even from their graves a trickle flows to feed the worms, insects and other humble things. Man may be mortal, but the water that flows through the body and nourishes the soul is old enough to have quenched the thirst of elder beasts when the world was young, and it would flow and shape the world so long as it endured. That was a lesson the Three in Green learned a century too late to aid their kin in the breaking of their realm, a moment too soon to find peace.

Once they had been sorcerers of fair Ghoyan Drohe of the singing steams, workers of ephemeral wonders and speakers of the river once called affectionately Little Sister by those who dwelt along its banks. Now they were memory of water flowing, eternity folded in three luminous forms and they remembered.

The shadow of dragon's wings.

The screams of children seeing their whole world tumble around them in fire and ruin.

The wails of those lead away in chains.

Tears into the river flowing
.

The three woke but could not be roused, they watched the breaking of their home, they raged, but the veil held against them was thick and heavy like a shroud. They listened as silence fell and only the rain wept over the city of their birth, as willow roots worked their way under once-colorful paving stones and worms ate away at flesh and old bones. Rage wore away into acceptance as rivers flowed towards the sea. Almost they loosed their grip, almost they found peace.

Then defilers came, with stolen flame and incantations of the enemy into the very tombs that had lain untouched since the fall. Always taking, always stealing.

Blood to water passed.

New voices strange and loud echoed over the river, they spoke the tongue of the accursed Freehold, but poorly, colonials, petty settlers swept before the wings of the dragonlords. Not so different from those with whom the Three-Many had once traded in peace. Stone they tore at but not flesh... until... until... the Dragon.

It didn't die, she didn't die. All was dust in the dragon's wake. Sorrow begets weakness begets sorrow, once the Three had known this, once they had lived by it. Now water flowed where it will.

A thought echoed through the ether, a subtle susurration that living men would have found fair, a greeting and a pledge to honor parley. It tasted sweet and bitter all at once, like nothing that had ever been spoken in the silence of the mind over fair Ghoyan Drohe. It did not taste of fire or of pride.

Eyes... eyes... flesh that should not be. What horror had the fools unleashed? The thought was sharp immediate, terror almost touching the immediacy of life.

They sought to steal the air from its lungs to drown it where it flew like some obscene growth upon the heavens, driving killing mist though every orifice.

"Bide a while dancing," it said with threads of light flowing from its eyes, each to bind one of the spirits to its will and there was music familiar and strange, and dance they had to do.

Twelve heartbeats only the magic held... twelve heartbeats was enough, to know the purpose in its words, to read compassion in eyes that looked upon them. To hear the Freehold was dead and gone.

Three did not think as one for as the music's hold died one withdrew and two lashed out: "Liar! Monster! Defiler!" Blows like hail fell upon otherworldly flesh harder than stone, but in time water would wear away stone.

Enemy:
2x Prana Ghost Hydrokineticists

Neutral (may decide to rejoin its fellows depending on tactics used):
1x Prana Ghost Hydrokineticists

Party:
Xor (Currently attacked over the river)
Valaena (Flying overhead invisible on Dawnfyre)
Mercy (Flying overhead invisible)
Argo (Standing on the bank of the river 30 ft away)
Shara (Standing on the bank of the river 30 ft away has a readied action to cast or use her launcher)

How do the party face this threat?

[] Write in

OOC: As a small hint if you decide to have Dawnfyre breathe on the two hostile ghosts it is unlikely the one Xor managed to convince not to attack will remain non-hostile
 
Last edited:
Honestly @Azel, the way you write the personality and point of view of these characters are so, blindingly beautiful and profound.

I'll strive to be just as good writer as you and DP whenever I wanted to make a FanFic or Quest.
 
But we got a character poised to become the supreme, quasi-deity ruler of most of humanity, because this is where the desire for revenge, the lust for power and a stark "us vs. them"-mentality has led to.


TL;DR

Don't drink the Utilitarianism cool-aid. It leads to bad places.
A very succinct and pithy note to end on for such a really long analysis, but amusing nonetheless.
 
That was a really cool PoV DP. I liked it a lot, and the actions of the undead really made sense when seen from their empathy.

The Azor Ahai path would likely result in toppling the slaver cities and installing new, Lawful Good governments in it's stead, then calling upon these states during the Long Night. No need for some conqueror to unite them by force.
The Red God is an expansionist dictator though. Instead of crushing or absorbing monarchies we'd be crushing or absorbing religions, and this would presumably lead us into conflict with everyone else (the Westerosi King is a religious one, for example).
And setting up independent non-slaver city-states is rather meaningless when everyone there is faithful and worships us as the messiah. It's not like the leadership can disobey us.
The locals would probably still have more control over their local rulers and administrators, I guess, as long as we didn't get involved (because "the messiah prefers this candidate for this post" or "the messiah wants this guy fired" are not sentences you can say no to.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I realize that the Red God is basically Viserys with a halo instead of a crown.

Likewise, you could try to make the Westerosi become better and more competent people by being obnoxiously Paragon at them.
I can't possibly imagine this working, seeing as it doesn't work in-quest. They'd hate us as a heretic Sorcerer worshipping a nonexistent God/demon, unless we could somehow get the Faith and the Seven on board with a God who explicitly wants to absorb them and change their precepts.
It might work better in Essos though, especially if the post-abolition leaders are religious people.
 
Back
Top