Hellven = void-creatires, a literal legion of Devils, and armies of illithids.

Thanks, no thanks.
We'll place a tree there once we are sure we can defend it.
So, not any time soon.
Have to agree here.

Before escalating things with Big Red we could have planted our tree in a properly rented spot in the temple district, where it would have been defended from most attackers by the devils themselves, but now that's out.
 
Have to agree here.

Before escalating things with Big Red we could have planted our tree in a properly rented spot in the temple district, where it would have been defended from most attackers by the devils themselves, but now that's out.
I'm pretty sure Asmodeus was not going to play the diplomat's path the entire time--and why should he really. Most of his reasons for doing that in Forgotten Realms and Golarion and elsewhere have a lot to do with the fact that the board is a lot more balanced. He can play things heavy-handed if he can actually bring his assets to bear, whereas otherwise it might just be an unnecessary risk that can lead to further setbacks.
 
Nope.

[X] Fourfold Approach
-[X] Firstly, and that which threatens him most currently, he would be supporting a deity part of an ancient alliance that was instrumental and staving off the scourge from the Deep, and which will continue to do so with your own support.
-[X] Secondly, currently your realm is without much of a divine portfolio suited to countering the Others' supremacy over the Sky, and it is yet another Power which has had experience in war against that dark power in ancient times.
-[X] Thirdly, it is an obvious means to empower his House and bloodline beyond the scope which others might have access to, and it is a reciprocal relationship, not that of a supplicant to a greater political body like the Faith is.
-[X] Finally, you don't trust the Seven or their priorities against that which threatens the realm, and would limit their influence in your lands where possible, which is harder to do if most of your chief vassals are either apathetic about religion or actively permissive of their maneuvering.
--[X] Viserys probably could see this coming at this point. Stannis seems to resent the concept of Gods. He's a man who believes not only in justice, but duty. The 'idea of evil' does not work as a concept given your current understanding of how the universe works. Gods are not all powerful or omniscient, just closer to it than most mortals ever will be. They can fail, just like the most loyal and dutiful man can fail. Realigning Stannis' understanding of this is likely essential to get him to actively make dealings with Gods.
Really, none of this checks out.

1. Saying the Storm God is his best bet against the Illithid is like suggesting that the best way to protect yourself against Iran is allying with Italy, because the Romans used to war with the Persians. It just ignores that the Storm God is nearly dead, extremely weak and other deities, like the Ferryman, would be a tremendously better pick for this goal.
2. I'll concede the part about having no Air domain god, but how is the Storm God supposed to plug that hole? Again, he is nearly dead and weak. That would be the equivalent of sending a quadriplegic old man into battle.
3. This argument is so blurry that it says basically nothing, except "Organized religion bad". I'll also contest that he has much power to gain because, again, nearly dead god with barely any juice in the tank. He could just as much pick any other god to worship to "empower his house and bloodline".
4. Which is basically an explanation of why Viserys would promote another god to Stannis, but still doesn't give any good reason for the Storm God.

This whole line of discussion would work significantly better if it was about, say, the Ferryman. As it is, it's mostly wishful thinking that the Storm God can provide any of these services.
 
Even Stannis can understand stealing from an enemy, it's and act of war and sabotage, as long as the enemy has been properly informed of the initiation of hostilities.
I now have the funniest image of Stannis dictating a strongly worded declaration of war via letter to a deity and having it shuttled off to their divine realm by an enterprising Outsider courier.
 
Really, none of this checks out.

1. Saying the Storm God is his best bet against the Illithid is like suggesting that the best way to protect yourself against Iran is allying with Italy, because the Romans used to war with the Persians. It just ignores that the Storm God is nearly dead, extremely weak and other deities, like the Ferryman, would be a tremendously better pick for this goal.
2. I'll concede the part about having no Air domain god, but how is the Storm God supposed to plug that hole? Again, he is nearly dead and weak. That would be the equivalent of sending a quadriplegic old man into battle.
3. This argument is so blurry that it says basically nothing, except "Organized religion bad". I'll also contest that he has much power to gain because, again, nearly dead god with barely any juice in the tank. He could just as much pick any other god to worship to "empower his house and bloodline".
4. Which is basically an explanation of why Viserys would promote another god to Stannis, but still doesn't give any good reason for the Storm God.

This whole line of discussion would work significantly better if it was about, say, the Ferryman. As it is, it's mostly wishful thinking that the Storm God can provide any of these services.
Most of your argument seems to be that Stormy is weak, and thus useless. That's not wrong, but it's also not a full accounting of the situation. Yss was just as weak, if not weaker at one point, and in just a few years of effort he has regained much of his lost power. If we want Stormy to be restored, we have to start somewhere, and due to bloodlines and deific stubbornness, our best bet for that is with Stannis.

Stormy might not be useful in any significant way for years, but that just means the sooner he regains worshipers, the sooner he'll be relevant again.
 
Again, he is nearly dead and weak. That would be the equivalent of sending a quadriplegic old man into battle.
By the time Others are a relevant problem, we are likely to have fed him up sufficiently to counter them at least somewhat. Like Yss, he doesn't mind sacrifices.
Unlike Yss, he's not with us since very beginning, so we'll have... a lot more sacrifices to throw his way.
We can't easily prop up any of our existing Gods to have an entirely new Domain.
He's objectively easier to feed into a semi-powerful state.
Saying the Storm God is his best bet against the Illithid is like suggesting that the best way to protect yourself against Iran is allying with Italy, because the Romans used to war with the Persians. It just ignores that the Storm God is nearly dead, extremely weak and other deities, like the Ferryman, would be a tremendously better pick for this goal.
Unlike the comparison, both Stormy and illithids are kinda immortal in memory, by the chapter with him we can still clearly see the... I wouldn't call it "hate", but strong dislike, I suppose, is a fitting description for his relationship with illithids.
Few Gods like them, admittedly - but he'll be easier to move into acting against Illithids than any other except the Ferryman.
Just needs to be fed for a few years.
And our war with Illithids isn't likely to finish by that time.

EDIT: Goldfish'ed
 
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The proposal would probably work better if we manage to sell Stannis on the blood sacrifice train. With the Yss example -- feed the snek, get goodies. Stannis probably appreciates a transactional model for gods more than anything else, so if we frame this as feed Deep Ones to the gods, get goodies, he's gonna be on board.
 
Most of your argument seems to be that Stormy is weak, and thus useless. That's not wrong, but it's also not a full accounting of the situation. Yss was just as weak, if not weaker at one point, and in just a few years of effort he has regained much of his lost power. If we want Stormy to be restored, we have to start somewhere, and due to bloodlines and deific stubbornness, our best bet for that is with Stannis.

Stormy might not be useful in any significant way for years, but that just means the sooner he regains worshipers, the sooner he'll be relevant again.
By the time Others are a relevant problem, we are likely to have fed him up sufficiently to counter them at least somewhat. Like Yss, he doesn't mind sacrifices.
Unlike Yss, he's not with us since very beginning, so we'll have... a lot more sacrifices to throw his way.
We can't easily prop up any of our existing Gods to have an entirely new Domain.
He's objectively easier to feed into a semi-powerful state.
Unlike the comparison, both Stormy and illithids are kinda immortal in memory, by the chapter with him we can still clearly see the... I wouldn't call it "hate", but strong dislike, I suppose, is a fitting description for his relationship with illithids.
Few Gods like them, admittedly - but he'll be easier to move into acting against Illithids than any other except the Ferryman.
Just needs to be fed for a few years.
And our war with Illithids isn't likely to finish by that time.

EDIT: Goldfish'ed
The proposal would probably work better if we manage to sell Stannis on the blood sacrifice train. With the Yss example -- feed the snek, get goodies. Stannis probably appreciates a transactional model for gods more than anything else, so if we frame this as feed Deep Ones to the gods, get goodies, he's gonna be on board.
These responses pretty clearly prove my point yesterday that the Storm God will continue to need time and attention devoted to it, adding another weight on the narrative.

Which leaves me to say how much I detest his mere existence and how you want to force him into relevance, further eroding Westeros as a setting into a vaguely Default-D&D mass. But, well, years to late on that front...
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 6, 2020 at 1:54 PM, finished with 30 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Fourfold Approach
    -[X] Firstly, and that which threatens him most currently, he would be supporting a deity part of an ancient alliance that was instrumental and staving off the scourge from the Deep, and which will continue to do so with your own support.
    -[X] Secondly, currently your realm is without much of a divine portfolio suited to countering the Others' supremacy over the Sky, and it is yet another Power which has had experience in war against that dark power in ancient times.
    -[X] Thirdly, it is an obvious means to empower his House and bloodline beyond the scope which others might have access to, and it is a reciprocal relationship, not that of a supplicant to a greater political body like the Faith is.
    -[X] Finally, you don't trust the Seven or their priorities against that which threatens the realm, and would limit their influence in your lands where possible, which is harder to do if most of your chief vassals are either apathetic about religion or actively permissive of their maneuvering.
    --[X] Viserys probably could see this coming at this point. Stannis seems to resent the concept of Gods. He's a man who believes not only in justice, but duty. The 'idea of evil' does not work as a concept given your current understanding of how the universe works. Gods are not all powerful or omniscient, just closer to it than most mortals ever will be. They can fail, just like the most loyal and dutiful man can fail. Realigning Stannis' understanding of this is likely essential to get him to actively make dealings with Gods.
 
Which leaves me to say how much I detest his mere existence and how you want to force him into relevance, further eroding Westeros as a setting into a vaguely Default-D&D mass. But, well, years to late on that front...
Well, this is one point where I'm going to disagree with you.
I prefer Westeros reduced to dnd-esque shapeless mass.

No offense meant, of course.
I just don't like the source material and I think I prefer DP's way of writing in DnD-stuff into the setting better than the original stuff with a veneer of high-fantasy over it.

But, I don't think I'm going to get what I want with it regardless :/


As for pulling Stormy into the spotlight... not really?
A chapter or two when we'll be sacrificing things to him, once in a very-fucking-while, is barely a strain on the narrative?
It's not like we interact with the Ferryman all that much either.
Stormy will be even less.

He's a Pokemon, I agree. I myself am at great fault for grabbing things that way for thousands and thousands of pages. I think I learned my lesson..?
But he's a matter we have to resolve IC now, so we're going to blow through as well as we can, as fast as we can.
 
TBH I also don't give two shits about the Storm God or the Earth Mother. The Earth Mother especially just felt forced in.
I really hope that they remain background elements for a long, long time, with only the occasional mention (maybe in some policy vote or something).
 
As far as I'm concerned, the Storm God and Earth Mother are easy to comprehend, human-ish gods for humans who don't smack Westerosi as being foreign. In other words, something we can use to keep peeling worshipers off the Seven and make them more manageable.

They also happen to have benefits beyond that, like the Earth Mother being pretty much the only god we have who is both nature related and strictly pro-human (hence why she got the crop rituals, nobody else fits), and the Storm God having mortals descended from him who can get power out of it and are mostly on our side or out of the way.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 6, 2020 at 1:54 PM, finished with 30 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Fourfold Approach
    -[X] Firstly, and that which threatens him most currently, he would be supporting a deity part of an ancient alliance that was instrumental and staving off the scourge from the Deep, and which will continue to do so with your own support.
    -[X] Secondly, currently your realm is without much of a divine portfolio suited to countering the Others' supremacy over the Sky, and it is yet another Power which has had experience in war against that dark power in ancient times.
    -[X] Thirdly, it is an obvious means to empower his House and bloodline beyond the scope which others might have access to, and it is a reciprocal relationship, not that of a supplicant to a greater political body like the Faith is.
    -[X] Finally, you don't trust the Seven or their priorities against that which threatens the realm, and would limit their influence in your lands where possible, which is harder to do if most of your chief vassals are either apathetic about religion or actively permissive of their maneuvering.
    --[X] Viserys probably could see this coming at this point. Stannis seems to resent the concept of Gods. He's a man who believes not only in justice, but duty. The 'idea of evil' does not work as a concept given your current understanding of how the universe works. Gods are not all powerful or omniscient, just closer to it than most mortals ever will be. They can fail, just like the most loyal and dutiful man can fail. Realigning Stannis' understanding of this is likely essential to get him to actively make dealings with Gods.
 
Part MMMCCCLXXVII: Powers and Principles
Powers and Principles

Eighteenth Day of the Twelfth Month 293 AC

"You are not going to enjoy this conversation," you begin as you take your seat opposite the lord of Storm's End once greetings and formalities had been dealt with. Not words you would usually begin persuading someone to your point of view, but Stannis Baratheon is anything but ordinary. Ordinarily you would suggest a drink, not so much to dull the sharp edge of realization as to provide something to do with one's hands, some natural pause to the conversation, but you are not quite sure how he feels about wine and business given his elder brother's excesses. It was Dany who had suggested magically cooled orange juice, some sort of new whim of the court, not that you have any intention of mentioning that. The day is certainly warm enough, not even the man high windows opened behind Stannis enough to tempt in a breeze.

"I don't expect to enjoy business." The flat reply is almost enough to make you wonder if he is making a particularly dry jest, but one look at his eyes is enough to dissuade you of the notion. He is determined as ever, yes, but there is wariness there also and pain he cannot quite hide even behind a mask of iron. Every deed done in your name is a fresh reminder of his 'betrayal' to his brother and no matter how justified he may know it to be he feels it still.

For a moment you consider just asking to move the tree, but cannot justify it to yourself. It will be years before time alone can grind down the stone of Stannis Baratheon's regret to something he can more easily live with and you do not have years, there will be other more heartwrenching acts in the months to come. Hopefully your request today will prove obscure and esoteric enough to be distracting.

"What do you know of the Storm God against whose wrath it is said these walls was built against?" you ask carefully, willing to let him lead the conversation rather than lecturing as though to a Scholarum initiate.

"Practically nothing," he grinds out. "One of the pyromancers has shown some small interest in the legend, you would have to ask him about it. I simply gave him permission to look all he likes so long as he does no harm and brings to my attention any useful information he may come across." By accident, though the last words are not said aloud the tone makes them clear. The Lord of Storm's End does not believe ancient myths could be of any worth or use here and now.

"He was once a god of war and thunder when the First Men first came to these lands," Dany interjects before the silence can grow too long. "He still is depending on your definition of 'god'. Old and faded but not gone, people still remember him when thunder crashes over head and the vaults of septs shake."

"And what does that memory serve them?" This time the words are almost toneless.

"For now very little, though he does seem to pay more attention to those few meager prayers then the Seven do to their thousands upon thousands of worshippers, as a poor man counts his coppers more carefully then the rich count gold." Thus you launch into an explanation of devotion and divinity, the powers of gods and their limitations, keeping nothing back. Not the way gods are constrained by their domains, nor the manner in which all but the most ancient and primordial of spirits depend on prayer or sacrifice and would starve without it. Father Sky and the Seven serve as examples throughout the account but you do not yet try to sway him one way or another.

Through it all the Lord of Storm's End is almost entirely silent, only asking for clarification here and there, mostly where you do not quite have words in the Common Tongue to explain the similes that are most convenient to use. His High Valyrian has obviously not been used in years, but it is clear he had been as dutiful in learning it as in any other aspect of his education.

The first question he asks once you and Dany are through with the account is not what you had expected, though perhaps you should have. "Highness, you and Lord High Justice Malarys as well as others in your service can make use of these magics of healing, divination and whatever else the priests receive by propitiating themselves before their gods. If you must hold a singular purpose for this particular tradition of sorcery, why not an abstract concept? Why encourage worship when all it does is chain people to fickle otherworldly beings buried in lies?"

Dany gives you a brief but meaningful look, the obvious answer is because gods keep one's soul from wandering or being devoured, but you are not certain you want to open that particular box of knives. Then again this is a man who values honesty above all other things and if there is a man who could bear the weight of this truth unbent it is this one.

Do you explain the Broken Spheres to Stannis Baratheon?

[] Yes, the knowledge will serve him well

[] No, best to explain this in a more gradual manner

[] Write in


OOC: Wasn't really expecting this break point until I got into Stannis head, but once I did it became obvious.
 
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[X] Crake

aka hit him with everything.

Now that we're about to have a full grown weirwood tree transplanted, hellven would be a good place to put it. Assuming we weren't planning on doing that already, we should.
We aren't ready to protect a Heart Tree in Hellven, Fallen Nirvana would be a good place though, if we could negotiate for it to be planted in either the Gith's main camp there, or in one of the Fortress cities, those places are already under constant assault anyway, so planting a Heart Tree there wont require us to commit a lot of resources, it will make the Old gods happy with us, and I'm sure they could get some use out of it, at least I think Heart Tree sacrifice, might give a better payoff for sacrificing low value captured enemy weapons, than however they normally deal with them.
Hellven = void-creatires, a literal legion of Devils, and armies of illithids.

Thanks, no thanks.
We'll place a tree there once we are sure we can defend it.
So, not any time soon.
Have to agree here.

Before escalating things with Big Red we could have planted our tree in a properly rented spot in the temple district, where it would have been defended from most attackers by the devils themselves, but now that's out.
There's 3 fallen Upper Planes, and only Hellven has had its remnants subverted by Hell, Broken Elysium still have kingdoms of Celestials existing on various of the broken shards, and Fallen Nirvana has Fortress cities, that are still resisting the attacks by the hordes of Daemon's and Illithids, both of those would be decent places for planting a Heart Tree, we just need to visit first, but for some reason, everyone seem to have focused on the Upper Plane, where it's hardest to make a difference.

Hellven is the most intact Upper Plane yes, but it's also the one that's hardest to change for the better, as while Hell making it a protectorate, has kept it less fucked up than the other Planes, Hell have no interest in making Hellven better, so while Hellven has the strongest establishment, Hellven also have the one establishment, that's not going to work in good faith with us to improve said plane.

We really ought to at least visit Nirvana, Elysium is shattered and we have no guides there, but in Elysium we can get the Gith to guide us, and we could probably come to mutually beneficial agreements with some of the Fortress cities.

But really we shouldn't place our first Upper Plane Heart Tree in Hellven, Fallen Nirvana is the best spot for it, and even broken Elysium would probably be better.
 
We've come this far with Stannis, we might as well cross the finish line and give him the full truth. He's not one who will react well to later learning we lied by omission, and that's probably how he would view it.

[X] Yes, the knowledge will serve him well
 
The first question he asks once you and Dany are through with the account is not what you had expected, though perhaps you should have. "Highness you and Lord High Justice Malarys as well as others in the King's service can make use of these magics of healing, divination and whatever else the priests receive by propitiating themselves before their gods. If you must hold a singular purpose for this particular tradition of sorcery, why not and abstract concept? Why encourage worship when all it does is chain people to fickle otherworldly beings buried in lies."

Dany gives you a brief but meaningful look, the obvious answer is because gods keep one's soul from wandering or being devoured, but you are not certain you want to open that particular box of knives. Then again this is a man who values honesty above all other things and if there is a man who could bear the weight of this truth unbent it is this one.
The afterlife is of course part of it, but there's also the fact that while it's limited, gods do have the ability to grant miracles, above and beyond what magic their priests can cast, so while Concept Clerics serve just as well as god Clerics, having the common people worship gods, create powerful beings, with a vested interest in your people not being wiped out.

Then there's the fact that while you can awaken power by yourself, or become a concept cleric, doing it that way take a lot of time and hard work, and not all qualify for it, a god kick-starting your power can sometime circumvent that.

And it's not like having concept clerics, and having god clerics are mutually exclusive, only using one of the options, just leave us with a lower total number of clerics, as not all who can be god clerics can be concept clerics, and not all who can be concept clerics, are suitable for any god in the Imperium, so having god clerics dedicated to gods that fits in with the Imperium, make the Imperium stronger.
 
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