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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
- Location
- Brazil
- Location
- United States
Every single one has been Advanced, yeah. That's their "Veteran" status thanks to fighting the Blood War from the beginning.
As I wasn't crazy enough to read through 13k+ posts, I apologize if those points were already brought up.
Is there a plan to prevent Tywin from doing something stupid like making a deal with the Devils/The Brazen Throne when Viserys invades? If his Lords and mages are bound by geas, and the wording leaves no out because the boss has gone crazy, Tywin can still do a lot of damage before going down.
What is the strategy for that ritual aimed at the Brazen Thrones finances? Is the fortress supposed to hold at all costs with full support from allies or will they only send limited assets and save more for a assault on the Sultans territory when he strips it of troops for the attack?
How is the conquest of Westeros supposed to happen? Conventional landings at the coast and linking up with vassal lords in the region or abusing the Shadow Tower for rapid strategic deployment of the Legion to crush loyalists in detail? Which should sharply limit overall bloodshed if shaky Baratheon loyalists can be overawed.
That grain glut. Is the expected damage to Westeros intentional or unfortunate side effect? There are some other parts about it that raise questions for me.
1. In that era, most farmers only fed themselves with only a tiny part being sold. If at all after taxes. If anything, they'd hardly care about a flood of grain on the markets. Unless their Lords increase taxes under the assumption that if the price is down, they just sell more volume, which leads to farmers starving.
2. The weird winter cycles complicate usual assumptions because bumper crops would be expected to be placed into the granaries for Winter.
3. Surplus grain can be used in a variety of ways. Like expanding livestock. While cows can't subsist entirely on grain (digestion issues) pigs should be able to. Which means a lot of meat available for people that couldn't afford it beforehand. Which notably also means a better recruiting base for soldiers as medieval peasant diet had very little meat or was otherwise varied for nutrition. Basically, more protein->kids get bigger. Unless magic healing also fixes malnutrition as a kid, but I doubt it.
More livestock also means more leather and/or parchment which is important for the growing literacy. Unless paper, either from wood pulp or cotton* is already a thing. Then that's cheaper.
*The Cotton gin is probably not a thing and picking+sorting cotton was where slaves were heavily used. Could Prestidigitation be used for cleaning?
Of course, you could also turn it all into booze.
Are cheap steel tools available for civilians or is it avoided to keep the steel industry from crashing? On one hand, saving the mines is useful, on the other hand, cheap steel tools are one of the things which made the industrial revolution so big. And is probably gonna make the grain glut even more spectacularly big in the next harvest (because less labour is needed per acre).
Can the Everfire Dale smelter design be used to make a desalination/saltern? Salt was pretty valuable in the middle ages. And you can just evaporate all the brine and catch vapor for water supply. And maybe irrigate Dorne and the Red Wastes
Is there a plan to prevent Tywin from doing something stupid like making a deal with the Devils/The Brazen Throne when Viserys invades? If his Lords and mages are bound by geas, and the wording leaves no out because the boss has gone crazy, Tywin can still do a lot of damage before going down.
What is the strategy for that ritual aimed at the Brazen Thrones finances? Is the fortress supposed to hold at all costs with full support from allies or will they only send limited assets and save more for a assault on the Sultans territory when he strips it of troops for the attack?
How is the conquest of Westeros supposed to happen? Conventional landings at the coast and linking up with vassal lords in the region or abusing the Shadow Tower for rapid strategic deployment of the Legion to crush loyalists in detail? Which should sharply limit overall bloodshed if shaky Baratheon loyalists can be overawed.
That grain glut. Is the expected damage to Westeros intentional or unfortunate side effect? There are some other parts about it that raise questions for me.
1. In that era, most farmers only fed themselves with only a tiny part being sold. If at all after taxes. If anything, they'd hardly care about a flood of grain on the markets. Unless their Lords increase taxes under the assumption that if the price is down, they just sell more volume, which leads to farmers starving.
2. The weird winter cycles complicate usual assumptions because bumper crops would be expected to be placed into the granaries for Winter.
3. Surplus grain can be used in a variety of ways. Like expanding livestock. While cows can't subsist entirely on grain (digestion issues) pigs should be able to. Which means a lot of meat available for people that couldn't afford it beforehand. Which notably also means a better recruiting base for soldiers as medieval peasant diet had very little meat or was otherwise varied for nutrition. Basically, more protein->kids get bigger. Unless magic healing also fixes malnutrition as a kid, but I doubt it.
More livestock also means more leather and/or parchment which is important for the growing literacy. Unless paper, either from wood pulp or cotton* is already a thing. Then that's cheaper.
*The Cotton gin is probably not a thing and picking+sorting cotton was where slaves were heavily used. Could Prestidigitation be used for cleaning?
Of course, you could also turn it all into booze.
Are cheap steel tools available for civilians or is it avoided to keep the steel industry from crashing? On one hand, saving the mines is useful, on the other hand, cheap steel tools are one of the things which made the industrial revolution so big. And is probably gonna make the grain glut even more spectacularly big in the next harvest (because less labour is needed per acre).
Can the Everfire Dale smelter design be used to make a desalination/saltern? Salt was pretty valuable in the middle ages. And you can just evaporate all the brine and catch vapor for water supply. And maybe irrigate Dorne and the Red Wastes
- Location
- florida
Minimal to low support from the genie yes.
Yep, that's about right.
Yep, it supposed to do damage.
Also granaries? Please. This is westeros. You give the lords FAR too much credit.
No, we want to dodge market crash.
- Location
- United States
The plan is to use overwhelming force and take him out. Believe it or not the Legions were designed be able to go toe to toe against literal Infernal Legions. If Tywin is stupid enough to do this it'll be unfortunate for sure, but it wouldn't be the end of the world for us.
Westeros will have multiple stages for the invasion. Our options are basically unlimited thanks to the Shadow Tower allowing us quick transport, but the bottomline is that multiple Legions will land in vassal territory in every kingdom, with a Legion literally marching across the bridge we'll be building to Dorne. The Baratheons and Lannisters won't get the chance to actually muster their bannermen to make a difference.
We're mainly just taking advantage of Baelish's schemes in that regard, but this is more an attack on the lords who sell the grain rather than the smallfolk who grow it. The lords will be crippled after the conquest and won't have the power to meaningfully oppose us on anything.
Cheap steel is available for citizens, yes. There was no point in trying to regulate it because the Terminus gives them access straight to the Plane of Earth. Better that we just let them buy it and increase their quality of life. Add the Hardening Chamber to it and everything they buy in Sorcerer's Deep becomes super durable.
We don't need the smelter to do that, I'm sure that there's an actual saltern somewhere in Sorcerer's Deep. Sea salt is apparently a good arcane reagent.
- Location
- United States
Yep, but if he went off the deep end he'd have Infernal protection. A lot of it. Good luck to Lanna and her, what, two level-appropriate companions?
- Location
- Germany
Not optimistic on that, by the way.
They got nothing on Legion Devils.
Maybe they can hold agains demonic hordes, but I bet against them with Infernal Legions.
- Location
- Greece
That seems like an entirely satisfying conclusion to me. They either die in the attempt and we get to decide later what to do with such sans timing issues or ill feelings, or they succeed and have just tossed the whole feudalism notion out of the window, the thing that their political power stems from - ridding us of a threat without our own hands getting dirty in the process as well.
They are done either way. Infighting among enemies is nice, no matter who comes out on top.
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- Location
- United States
I pretty explicitly remember @TotallyNotEvil taking great pains to make sure our Legions could match Infernal Legions. What makes you say they're not a match for Legion Devils?
Chassis issues, presumably. No matter how tricked out, our soldiers are still normal humans and even if all else is equal they'll have less guts to rip out than the other guys.
It's not a real concern defensively since we're unlikely to ever fight 'fairly', we've no reason to respond to infernal armies entering this plane with anything other than overwhelming force.
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- Location
- Germany
Take a look at the common Merregon: Realms Helps Creature: Legion Devil (Merregon)
Just a CR 3 creature.
Their armor is lesser than that of our soldiers and their offence about equal, if the Soldiers have a buffing officer nearby.
But!
The Merregons get a bunch of special features.
They can pool their health into a single number, meaning no Merregon dies until enough damage is done to kill all of them. If they win an engagement, there is no attrition, everyone of them survived.
They are immune to fear, which I worry might result in them being quite impossible to break on a battlefield unless someone calls the retreat.
If an area attack hits Merregons, they all roll the save. If even one of them makes it, they all make it. And they have Evasion, so reflex-spells (like most of the damaging ones) have no effect at all if they make the save.
And last but greatest, they get +4 attack for every other Merregon nearby. That means if 8 Merregons stand together, each gets +28 on hit, making sure that every single strike and shot that's not aimed at a minor deity or ancient dragon hits.
Now DP limited the maximal group-size of these boni to 8, so it's not unbeatable, but still pretty hardcore. Any melee is a grind, grenades and bombardement is only marginally effective thanks to Evasion and shared saving rolls.
At best we use a lot of Archers and Assault Troopers under Magic Army from Viserys (to ignore DR and get better hit chances) to kill them quickly, but it will still result in unpleasant exchange-rates.
And that's only for straight fighting. They are also a tactical nightmare with Legions Advance. Not nearly as bad as Teleport of course, but still, they can get to any point of the battlefield at will once they have spread out a little bit, just by teleporting to each other and supporting they comrades wherever they need it.
Edit: On the plus side, ours with Hellfire Crossbows and Segmented Fullplates are even better.
- Location
- Germany
@Duesal
Okay, I have underestimated how much the Officers with their auras can buff our soldiers.
With that crazy "everyone threatened by 2 or more soldiers counts as flanked" trick in addition to phat boni on flanking damage they can actually take down a pulk of 8 Merregons reasonably fast, if they have bigger numbers and nobody kills the officer.
But they will still take serious hits while doing so.
Okay, I have underestimated how much the Officers with their auras can buff our soldiers.
With that crazy "everyone threatened by 2 or more soldiers counts as flanked" trick in addition to phat boni on flanking damage they can actually take down a pulk of 8 Merregons reasonably fast, if they have bigger numbers and nobody kills the officer.
But they will still take serious hits while doing so.
- Location
- United States
Yeah, the officer buffs were our secret weapon. The Legions being able to match outsider armies was what we were going for. I don't think anyone expected to do so without heavy losses using our current model, but we could definitely upgrade gear in the near future.
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
We can always upgrade our legions more, if they aren't strong enough, we are producing a lot of Valyrian steel, and we might be able to make minor symbiotes we can outfit them all with.
Update in beta.
- Location
- Germany
The model works, but it's not very stable.
Officers have to be near the very front to make use of auras and battlecries. That makes them vulnerable to getting targeted and killed. 5 guys with Hellfire Crossbows can kill one per round on the average.
Even lesser officers of any Outsider army are on the average killier than ours and most can teleport.
And if you take out the officers the army can't stand against something like Merregons even if they outnumber them decently.
Another important factor is that Viserys' Magic Army makes a giant difference. Almost all Outsiders have DR, with Viserys support our Legions can ignore the lesser DRs, without it they have to hit every foes literally twice as much or more before they fall. Giant difference.
I don't like having our people that dependant on one Spell that only one person can cast. Maybe let Lya learn it and make a scroll or two at CL 15, so that there is an emergency option if Viserys can't bless everyone for whatever reason.
- Location
- ?????????
So today I learned that my friends can't read for shit.
Edit: Willing creature. Do you think I'm willing when I'm fucking charmed?
Edit: Willing creature. Do you think I'm willing when I'm fucking charmed?
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- Location
- Germany
Yes?
For the purpose of most spells at least, not for legal or moral decisions.
- Location
- ?????????
I was charmed to be hostile to my allies so I was decidedly not willing.
Winning vote
[] Arrange a meeting with Shyra, one where we seek to gain her allegiance as has become our standard modus operandi.
-[] Leave her mother out of the equation for now.
[] Arrange a meeting with Shyra, one where we seek to gain her allegiance as has become our standard modus operandi.
-[] Leave her mother out of the equation for now.
Part MMCMXLVI: As the Wheel Turns
As the Wheel Turns
Tenth Day of the Tenth Month 293 AC
The three of you spend hours talking around Dany's idea, and you certainly do not lack for ideas, from using magic to allow Lady Shyra to have children with her lover, to adoption after the Essosi manner, though as Ser Richard rightly puts it that will put the cat among the pigeons, unless it is a royal decree rarely invoked. However, in the end, any plan to approach the Lady of Haystack Hall regarding the matter hits upon the same snag—it would require admitting to uncovering a deep and personal secret within hours of arriving in town. At best it would make her deeply worried about what others may divine, at worse it will only stoke whatever ill will Lady Carolei may have tried to kindle in her daughter.
Thus as morning creeps over the horizon you try again the same path that had seen you enter so many lords' solars in an inconspicuous manner, the merchant from afar bearing rare goods, and of course gifts for the gracious lord or lady.
Alas the tavernkeeper of the Broken Wheel informs you that you are unlikely to get far with that here. "Lady Shyra's still mourning Lord Robert, Stranger rest his soul, and of course she's just a lass, highborn or no, and doesn't know much about trade ye know," the man says, earning himself a brief glare from Dany. "I'm sure it'll be easier once she's settled with a husband."
You soothe your own annoyance at the man's thoughtless dismissal of his liegelady by imagining his reaction should the truth ever come to light with full royal approval. Entertaining as it is you dismiss the mental image a moment later in exchange for more productive pursuits, discovering when and where you might meet the Lady in relative privacy without intruding.
One armsman deeper in his cups than most explains that the Lady loves hawking, always taking personal care of her prize birds, though of course she would not organize a hunt so soon after the passing of both her father and her betrothed. Still that is all you needed to know.
After scouting out the towers of the keep unseen to find the mews, Dany keeps watch around it until she spies the lady at her task, upon which she speaks to her as a voice from empty air, offering the chance to discuss the fate of the Seven Kingdoms. By your sister's accounting she is first surprised then deeply wary of the offer and almost refused entirely to meet you without her mother's counsel, but in the end Dany had managed to convince her that it would only put her mother in danger from King's Landing if she were present at such a meeting without the protection of being a reigning lady.
"I can all but guarantee she will try to pass whatever you tell her by her mother," Dany sighs as she sits perched upon the windowsill of your room in the Broken Wheel.
"Don't trouble yourself," you reassure her, running a hand down her soft silver scales. "You did all you could in such short a time. Hopefully I can change her mind on that as on other matters."
Your first impression of Lady Errol upon entering the tavern's backroom is of golden hair tumbling over the shoulders of a plain blue dress a little too large for her, possibly borrowed from a servant that make her seem younger than her three-and-twenty years. However there is nothing childlike about the wary gaze she gives you.
By contrast the knight she had brought with her, Haystack Hall's master-at-arms as he is introduced, takes one look at Ser Richard and blanches even with the glamour hiding the arcane arms and armor. A wise man, you think and mark his name and face more closely—Ser Criston Swygert. You wonder what relation he is to the idiot Ser Richard had almost skewered during the exchange of Stannis' ransom money.
There is little time for idle curiosity, however, as you lay down in Rain House, in Evenfall Hall, and many other keeps before, of how Baratheon had failed to keep peace in the Seven Kingdoms and what protection against otherworldly dangers there has been comes at the cost of Tywin Lannister growing ever mightier, even as he uses magic to bind not just his Golden Shields, but perhaps his vassal lords also.
"My lord," the lady clears her throat a touch self-consciously. "You speak of many dark portents and ill fates, and I will not now say that they are false, but I cannot know that they are true either. The first magic I have seen with my own eyes has been that which your sister showed me. Of fiends I know not but what is written in the Seven-Pointed-Star, of Deep Ones nothing but nursery tales and rumors carried by travelers. The Lannisters' Golden Shields are almost as much a tale here, the most I have seen of them is a seal upon a letter passed on from Storm's End a few months back warning against enchantment and other strange perils. Yet though you have not asked it yet in so many words you would have me betray the oaths to King Robert, beside whom my father fought and bled." Again she pauses, this time got longer still. "I cannot say I am not tempted by the promise of what I have heard from the east, but..."
Though she trails off you can guess what is not said from her choice of words, 'tempted.' She is concerned that she might sell the honor of her House for far-off fancies and idle dreams, and thus her natural inclination would likely be to seek wiser heads. Alas the wiser head she is likely thinking of bears you no good will.
What do you reply?
[] Write in
OOC: Your rolls were not great, but Viserys is still ridiculously charismatic so you made some positive headway.
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Wouldn't it be better to look for ways to use this to do character assassination on Tywin? Instead of dealing with geased lords directly, deal with their close relatives and paint Tywin as the villain. I doubt he has enough golden shields mages to geas everyone without being blindingly obvious.
There is of course the possibility that Tywin mostly just used the Vassalage oaths as base for the geas, so the lords and relatives are not too inclined to rebel (he is after all just reinforcing what they'd do anyway!) but that still leaves the smallfolk and the armsmen. Tywin isn't exactly loved by the people is the expression I got. So paint him as the villain in this farce so that when the devils come, all the blame lands on Tywin and there is plenty of room for people to switch sides.
Basically, I believe that any situation where Legion Devils march on Westeros without Viserys permission is a failure already. One that can be fixed, but at considerable cost.
Maybe offer loans on favourable terms in exchange for clerks getting increased oversight over the fief? I assume the next generation of clerks will be heavily recruited from orphanages so they owe everything to House Targaryen already.
Speaking of House Targaryen and governance, is there an estaplished chain of command in case Viserys, Dany and Rhalla all die? Odds are the companions bring them back soon enough. But confusion about the chain of command are deadly.
Be careful about the super durability. It has it's places, but if entire sections of the economy, like maintenance, disappears it will have repercussions.
Salterns need surface area and are limited by weather and sunlight. By using the Firewall used in the smelter you could theoretically pump in brine all day and evaporate the water at a horrifying rate.
Seriously, salt is stupidly valuable in this era until we throw so much magic at it that the market breaks. It's something Sorcerers Deep is uniquely suited to exploit for economic gain.
- Location
- United States
I certainly wasn't expecting her to have never seen magic at all. @DragonParadox, is this place really that unimportant that even the Lannisters didn't bother showing up?