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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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lancelot said:
the moment we knew Lucan wasn't a frothing at the mouth fanatic we should have dropped this plan and tried reason like we have with everyone else
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When he gave his little speech, I went on and on and on about how, 'hey, maybe we've been mislead by rumours as much as he has, it sounds like the Faith is a means to an end to him, and said end is compatible with our goals, why not talk?".

And DP said "Viserys thinks that is essentialy impossible".
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
That won't convince her at all!
She knows about all that.
She just thanks that our methods are wrong, and that we're being excessively paranoid and unfairly assuming the worst of everyone.

She seems to want the Faith to be strong, but allied to us. That would in fact be better in the fight against the Deep Ones than crushing the Faith - it's just that for political and personal reasons we want to weaken the Faith and then build up our own powerbase on top of the ashes.
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Okay point of order? We're a King, it is literally in our job description to assume the worst of everyone in the off chance it's true so we can mitigate the damage.

We have to think of everyone under our aegis, not just ourselves. At least you do if you want to be a true king and not some jumped up brat sitting in his father's chair because he kicked it.
 
Speed53066 said:
So, what is wrong with showing her some of the shit we have to deal with to keep this plane alive?
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The fact that it does not make kidnapping right. You guys did not save up 'good points' and now get to be a 'little bit evil'. Morality does not become meaningless because you helped some other people some other time, even a lot of people. Being more powerful and thus begin able to do more good does not mean you have to do 'this much evil to count'. That is where she is standing right now, she is pleading with you to act in a moral way so that she can talk to you
 
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Azel said:
Hm...

Preaching at Danelle failed.

So the thread decides to...

Preach some more!

People, when your strategy is loosing, you shouldn't double down. Unless you like loosing. Then carry on!
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You know, it would be much easier to take advice from you if it wasn't dripping with condescension.

I'm busy with a pathfinder game. Don't expect anything from me tonight, especially after how the vote was - as others have said - completely mangled and the update should have stopped about halfway through instead of just making us double down on what clearly wasn't working.

What was it someone said, retrained our Diplomacy score into Craft (Basketweaving)?
 
DragonParadox said:
The fact that it does not make kidnapping right. You guys did not save up 'good points' and now get to be a 'little bit evil'. Morality does not become meaningless because you helped some other people some other time, even a lot of people. Bing more powerful and thus begin able to do more good does not mean you have to do 'this much evil to count'. That is where she is standing right now, she is pleading with you to act in a moral way so that she can talk to you
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That's not how it works?

I distincly remember saving up a bit of Evil so we don't accidentally slip into Good the next time we do something heroic once or twice.;)

Might have been some thousands of pages ago.
 
Artemis1992 said:
To be fair, we ambushed him.

He was likely on this plane to kill us, his template is a strong hint, but we can't directly claim that Lucan or the Seven send him against us.
We killed him before there was a chance for that.
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I will not be vilified for being vigilant.

He was rolling up in the hood with a goddamn Kingkiller template, he wasn't here to sell cookies.
 
DragonParadox said:
The fact that it does not make kidnapping right. You guys did not save up 'good points' and now get to be a 'little bit evil'. Morality does not become meaningless because you helped some other people some other time, even a lot of people. Bing more powerful and thus begin able to do more good does not mean you have to do 'this much evil to count'. That is where she is standing right now, she is pleading with you to act in a moral way so that she can talk to you
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This, basically. We just did some fucked up shit, no arguing that fact.

If we promised to to send her back with her companions regardless of the outcome, would she agree to visiting Sorceror's Deep?

I'd much rather resolve this politely, but I have no idea if that's possible.
 
DragonParadox said:
The fact that it does not make kidnapping right. You guys did not save up 'good points' and now get to be a 'little bit evil'. Morality does not become meaningless because you helped some other people some other time, even a lot of people. Being more powerful and thus begin able to do more good does not mean you have to do 'this much evil to count'. That is where she is standing right now, she is pleading with you to act in a moral way so that she can talk to you
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Does she understand that her crap is going to kill millions of people? Well, the Seven's crap but still. I mean, if she really wants to play it that way we can talk about the fate of the original denizens of the Vale, who were killed in their thousands by the Seven and their minions. That was pretty evil and yet here we are, expected to think the Seven are good.
 
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chryssalideater said:
This, basically. We just did some fucked up shit, no arguing that fact.

If we promised to to send her back with her companions regardless of the outcome, would she agree to visiting Sorceror's Deep?

I'd much rather resolve this politely, but I have no idea if that's possible.
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Release the prisoners of her faction first as a show of goodwill.

We've got to show her that we're properly paranoid, not unreasonable.

Do it a bit father than the conclave so they don't run up in here and try to shank us mind you, we're nice not stupid.
 
So she has principles then. It genuinely seems like she and at least Lucan are reasonable. It seems less and less likely that we'd splinter the faith without resorting to drastic action.

My thought is that we somehow leverage this into a diplomatic summit between the old gods and the new. Maybe have Yss arbitrate, get bloodraven to send a simulacrum as a representative. With the current status quo, we will be forced into war against the fate and trying this loses us nothing. It might be a bad idea, but it's what my sleep deprived mind came up with.

Frankly, the only way we can have our cake and eat it is if the seven willingly sacrifice enough power to satisfy the old gods. This humiliates the seven, but it can end up benefiting everyone.

The old gods are the first line of defence against the Others and more power to them means the better for Westeros.

If the seven say they won't have enough power to empower thier champions? Grow Wierwood trees and let the old gods pick up the slack. The old gods don't care for worship and the seven will regain thier power eventually.

This is probably unlikely but some compromise might be likely. At the very least, we might get some of the chosen to doubt and that'd be helpful for a schism. Maybe we can even get some of the chosen of the seven to sacrifice themselves for the people. Danielle at least has morals we can exploit.

Why would they be willing to trust us? Oaths probably. We're going to be a good king anyway. Swearing it in front of the old gods or something similar has us lose nothing to prove that.

Obviously, this is a lot of end-goal stuff rather than right now, but it's one am and I'm on a phone so it's hard to clearly communicate.

I'd say we start with being as reasonable as possible, and get Dannelle and maybe Lucan to agree to see our realm for themselves. Convince them we're on the level and then start making setups for a meeting.

This is going to take several sets of diplomatic combat but I feel like it might be possible. Thoughts? If it doesn't work, at least we tried. We'll at least get a glimpse of what kind of people the seven actually are and we can actually be justified in acting against them. There is the threat of the others bearing down on us to make people desperate, but there isn't as much animosity on the human representatives right now.

If we can get bloodraven and the chosen to get on board with basically herding our gods, the sheer amount of social prowess we bring to the table might make all of this work.

Thoughts? Is this or a version of this anywhere near viable to pursue?
 
[X] Plan "No concessions, but seek a calmer conversation later".
-[X] "An Angel of the Seven personally told me that Lucan could not be trusted to parley. This wasn't the one made from the twisted soul of my ancestor and sent to murder me - this was yet another Angel, personally in Lucan's service."
-[X] "In both Westeros and Essos, I have seen mages bound to service through curses. Forcing mages to fight anyone who could free them or kill themselves if they could not is the obvious binding, and one I would not risk again. Noble lords and wise masters have both sunk this low, so who was I to trust Lucan's good name? No. I easily captured Lucan's companions without harming them, to see just how willingly they served him. If they were slaves then they would be freed, and if they weren't they'd at least have trustworthy information. All this without risking parley with Lucan or his Planetar, where an ill-advised fight might have led to disaster. The coincidental presence of your friends led to their temporary capture, which is regrettable."
-[X] "Should your companions be free and willing, they will soon be released, wholly unharmed. In the meantime, the Conclave is ongoing and this isn't the best time to talk. But should you want to discuss the obvious impossibility of properly ensuring the spiritual and temporal needs of the people of the seven kingdoms are met while the Faith remains a strong and united power to rival Kings while refusing to accept other Gods or spirits, we can have a more restful conversation in the evening."
 
[:)] "Oh you want to work together? Oh I'm so sorry! I thought we were enemies given that Lucan sent a literal angel of death after me and the fact that he won't actually agree to uphold any truce or parley we offer him? I guess I was wrong, clearly this has all been a big misunderstanding!"
 
065tdsa said:
Does she understand that her crap is going to kill millions of people? Well, the Seven's crap but still.
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Doesn't change the fact that we kidnapped her friends. She is deathly afraid that we are going to kill all her friends and Lucan's friends. She is here begging for a shred of "morality". She has no cards to play but this one. This is her last play. A plea for mercy.
 
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