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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Artemis1992 said:
[x] Plan The World as we see it
-[X] Release her companions right now, just ask her to actually listen to us
[X] There is no proposal that can benefit the Faith and the Faithful alike. The best outcome, the one least likely to end in fire or blood, is for the Faith to weaken and fade, to split up into small sects with little political relevance. That is how the Faithful will survive and be protected, while the Old Gods are satisfied.
-[X] Can you act against your gods for the sake of their followers? Then we can find an agreement.
-[X] Explain the wider situation, the countless enemies in this world and others, the help the Old Gods are giving us and why it is worth helping them with their old grudges in return.
-[X] Lay out the entire strategic situation on- and off-plane, even if it takes several hours and illusory flipcharts. Yes this includes Devil-activity, the Brazen Throne and Tiamat.
-[X] Ask her honestly if she sees a way to fullfill all our goals and protect mankind while keeping the Faith intact? We don't have the time to do this perfectly and since Lucan's introduction to us was an Angel with Kingkiller-template we judged talking things out not to be worth it.
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This is damn solid actually. Very nice.
 
zxzx24 said:
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Mmm, sandwich earings.

More seriously, give her back her people, we already told her they weren't the target. If she wants to work with us, not "Fear future devils" let her come to us, meanwhile we have prisoners to interrogate.

As is, the Seven and the Imperium cannot coexist. Their freaking bible says Magic=bad, and magic is the core of the imperium. It's either they heel and change or they burn. There is no other option since time is running out and there are monsters that want everything death.

As a King our responsibility is not to the faith but the people, the faith causes as much damage as help, we can do everything, every charity and help they give better without causing half as much damage.

If it was wholly my vote, I would say start scheming so that Westeros starts their civil war faster, let everyone die, then go and take over, much easier to say "I told you so" and "your faith sucks" when it causes easily seen mass death.
 
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Ericwinter said:
[ ] "Do not treat you like children, you say? Pieces on a board? Very well. Allow me to show you just how young you really are, and the game we are all forced to play."
This is about the best I can do right now, but I'm hoping @Snowfire or @Goldfish can do better. My main priorities right now are taking Danelle, and possibly Lucan, to the Deep to show them just how naive they really are. I'm talking full blown tour route of the capital, with Trophy Room, Godswoods, interviews with, at the least, Dany, Rina, and Xor as the most familiar with our major enemies at the moment, and if possible talking to the other people, both high and low, we have gone far out of our way to help out. This is both a show of power and proof that they are far out of their league, and not just against us, but also that we are trying to help, and pretty much the only person who has achieved anything large scale.
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To reiterate Danelle is not going anywhere unless you release those prisoners and swear to not interfere with the conclave anymore. You guys are trying to argue politics to a distraught woman whose friend you kidnapped. Maybe reverse that part instead of trying to make her admit the kidnapping was for the 'greater good'.
 
People, there is NO WAY we're going to convince her that she's a naïve idealist. Especially not by being this blunt. That's would be cathartic for you to vote for (and perhaps amusing to read) but it would be a huge diplomatic misstep.

I think that our current objective would be to reframe her offer on our terms. We're trapped in her logic right now. We need to get her to start compromising with us, not the other way around.
I'm thinking of trying to set up a parlay with Dannelle later, once we've all calmed down. She's not in a state to accept such smugly "logical" arguments right now.
Honestly, did the thread suddenly descend into Ben Shapiro levels of debating skills right now?

@Artemis1992 she'll just say "the Faith could be a strong ally at your side against these threats."
Duh.
 
Ericwinter said:
[ ] "Do not treat you like children, you say? Pieces on a board? Very well. Allow me to show you just how young you really are, and the game we are all forced to play."
This is about the best I can do right now, but I'm hoping @Snowfire or @Goldfish can do better. My main priorities right now are taking Danelle, and possibly Lucan, to the Deep to show them just how naive they really are. I'm talking full blown tour route of the capital, with Trophy Room, Godswoods, interviews with, at the least, Dany, Rina, and Xor as the most familiar with our major enemies at the moment, and if possible talking to the other people, both high and low, we have gone far out of our way to help out. This is both a show of power and proof that they are far out of their league, and not just against us, but also that we are trying to help, and pretty much the only person who has achieved anything large scale.
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That's not gonna magically make them our allies. Yes, they'll be better informed, but they are still CHOSENS OF THE SEVENS. If anything, it might convince them to go:"faith militant: hardcore edition" in order to counter the threats we revealed to them.
They are faithful and apparently honestly and earnestly work to strenghten the faith because they see this as the honest to gods best way to protect and nurture their flock.
From there, there is no agreement possible, no compromise and no way to avoid conflict.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
People, there is NO WAY we're going to convince her that she's a naïve idealist. Especially not by being this blunt. That's would be cathartic for you to vote for (and perhaps amusing to read) but it would be a huge diplomatic misstep.

I think that our current objective would be to reframe her offer on our terms. We're trapped in her logic right now. We need to get her to start compromising with us, not the other way around.
I'm thinking of trying to set up a parlay with Dannelle later, once we've all calmed down. She's not in a state to accept such smugly "logical" arguments right now.
Honestly, did the thread suddenly descend into Ben Shapiro levels of debating skills right now?

@Artemis1992 she'll just say "the Faith could be a strong ally at your side against these threats."
Duh.
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I don't think I'm trying to convince her she's a naive idealist, just that she's failing to live up to her ideals. That said, if you have suggestions, I'd appreciate them.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I did include explaining the OGs a bit to her.

Right now the support of the Old Gods is more valuable than what the Faith can contribute, therefore we are going to cut down the Faith to please the OGs.
Maximum efficiency.
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She won't accept that though. She'll argue that the Faith can provide more help by mobilizing the 7 Kingdoms and sending Archons or something. And the Chosen are strong, right? Surely better than measly trees!
 
Hm...

Preaching at Danelle failed.

So the thread decides to...

Preach some more!

People, when your strategy is loosing, you shouldn't double down. Unless you like loosing. Then carry on!
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
People, there is NO WAY we're going to convince her that she's a naïve idealist. Especially not by being this blunt. That's would be cathartic for you to vote for (and perhaps amusing to read) but it would be a huge diplomatic misstep.

I think that our current objective would be to reframe her offer on our terms. We're trapped in her logic right now. We need to get her to start compromising with us, not the other way around.
I'm thinking of trying to set up a parlay with Dannelle later, once we've all calmed down. She's not in a state to accept such smugly "logical" arguments right now.
Honestly, did the thread suddenly descend into Ben Shapiro levels of debating skills right now?

@Artemis1992 she'll just say "the Faith could be a strong ally at your side against these threats."
Duh.
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I'm not a negotiator dude. The closest I ever got was holding a baseball bat while hanging behind- well, that's not important and more importantly can't be proven in a court of law.
 
Artemis1992 said:
That seems measurably wrong.

We can summon our own Outsiders and we can secure Westeros through our regular politics.
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Not without a huge bloodbath and many cultural problems, and any conversation with us would indicate that we're opposed to that.
In any case, this isn't an argument we should be getting into.
She's a believer, we won't be convincing her.
 
We should totally tell her our requests. We have just a few minor points of theology we'd like to propose changes to after all:
  • An open admission of the limits and fallibility of the Seven.
  • An acknowledgement that other gods of equivalent power exist and are not necessarily evil.
  • Incorporating descriptions of the Planes to the holy books.
  • Restitution for the burning of heart trees, for the Old Gods.
If she really thinks she can grant these she's welcome to try on our behalf. She can have her friend back, it'd honestly be worth it to see the resulting disaster. Even if she somehow achieved anything other than being kicked out by bringing any of this up in the Conclave, I'd love to see her implement them in public. We'll have a hard time de-programming and educating the smallfolk either way, so why not give her the job?
 
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Azel said:
Hm...

Preaching at Danelle failed.

So the thread decides to...

Preach some more!

People, when your strategy is loosing, you shouldn't double down. Unless you like loosing. Then carry on!
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...

You know what, fuck it.

Call Yreal and get him to explain it then.

If she won't believe us then maybe she'll believe a literal goddamn angel who can't lie.

Frankly I'm getting tired of having to use him as a character witness but what can you do?
 
DragonParadox said:
To reiterate Danelle is not going anywhere unless you release those prisoners and swear to not interfere with the conclave anymore. You guys are trying to argue politics to a distraught woman whose friend you kidnapped. Maybe reverse that part instead of trying to make her admit the kidnapping was for the 'greater good'.
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That wasn't what I was trying to go for. I was assuming releasing the prisoners was a part of the whole, 'get them to the Deep'. The point was against her declarations that we are treating the Faith as naive and pieces to be played, when they don't even understand the shape of the world, let alone everything in it. What we did isn't necessarily right, but they can't even begin to judge that until they understand why we do anything at all.
 
065tdsa said:
We should totally tell her our requests. We have just a few minor points of theology we'd like to propose changes to after all:
  • An open admission of the limits and fallibility of divine power.
  • An acknowledgement that other gods of equivalent power exist and are not necessarily evil.
  • Incorporating descriptions of the Planes to the holy books.
  • Restitution for the burning of heart trees, for the Old Gods.
If she really thinks she can grant these she's welcome to try on our behalf.
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You can try. Viserys has no idea if it will work, but then he knows very little about how Danele sees her Gods.
 
Azel said:
Hm...

Preaching at Danelle failed.

So the thread decides to...

Preach some more!

People, when your strategy is loosing, you shouldn't double down. Unless you like loosing. Then carry on!
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Click to shrink...
...Fair.

[X] "The attempt is appreciated, but the time for acts of mercy from the seven was before they sent Baelor the Blessed to assassinate me."
-[X] Release 2 of her companions immediately. Do whatever needs to be done to magically bug them/make them potential security leaks before doing so.
-[X] Offer to release the rest of them provided that one of the following two things can happen.
--[ ] The folllowing demands are met:

  • An open admission of the limits and fallibility of the Seven.
  • An acknowledgement that other gods of equivalent power exist and are not necessarily evil.
  • Incorporating descriptions of the Planes to the holy books.
  • Restitution for the burning of heart trees, for the Old Gods.
--[X] Alternatively, Danelle and Lucan break with Kyle in the conclave.
---[X] If an attempt to argue is made, reveal the Fey's true goals, arguing it would be moral to break with them.
--[X] If further arguments are made, point out that they can also just never see the rest of their companions again.

Short, sweet, to the point.
 
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Speed53066 said:
So, what is wrong with showing her some of the shit we have to deal with to keep this plane alive?
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That won't convince her at all!
She knows about all that.
She just thanks that our methods are wrong, and that we're being excessively paranoid and unfairly assuming the worst of everyone.

She seems to want the Faith to be strong, but allied to us. That would in fact be better in the fight against the Deep Ones than crushing the Faith - it's just that for political and personal reasons we want to weaken the Faith and then build up our own powerbase on top of the ashes.
 
chryssalideater said:
...Fair.

[X] "The attempt is appreciated, but the time for acts of mercy from the seven was before they sent Baelor the Blessed to assassinate me."
-[X] Release 2 of her companions immediately. Do whatever needs to be done to magically bug them/make them potential security leaks before doing so.
-[X] Offer to release the rest of them provided that Danelle and Lucan break with Kyle in the conclave.
-[X] If an attempt to argue is made, reveal the Fey's true goals, arguing it would be moral to break with them.
--[X] If further arguments are made, point out that they can also just never see the rest of their companions again.

Short, sweet, to the point.
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And I thought the baseball bat was blunt, goddamn dude.
 
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