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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
I'm sorry this is troubling but I'm just not comfortable with slotting them automatically into imperial servants thematically. Viserys is not just tying to become a god and get some servants. Ever since Azema and Xor a big part of his reason for accepting unlikely allies has been the belief that they are people first and foremost and should be treated as such.

Remember the Circle of Firelight/Darkness metaphor we used way back when you guys took the Deep. That only works if being outside the circle is a choice and one accepts all those who wish to step in on their own merits without trying to change them. If that is not true than what is basically the core of Viserys' morality becomes a lie and yet more hypocrisy. We've just gotten rid of that I do not want to start again.
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That's...DP, I'm not trying to slot them automatically into that role. I'm trying to say that without an intrinsic connection to a force of power like what Imperium gives Viserys, or an Outer Plane, they shouldn't have the Native subtype. That is what I'm objecting to at this point. Hell, I've even gone out of my way to point out how a connection to the Imperium won't just make them LN, the link will be dictated by that argument of person above all, and though I could see some choosing to change, it'll be at their own pace. But this...seeming insistence here to ignore the issue by just making them Native Outsiders really doesn't make sense.

Being welcome in the circle of light against the darkness doesn't mean that you're suffused with the power of that firelight if you shattered your link to the fire that burns at one corner of the horizon.

On a narrative level, I'd see Viserys hitting Mythic 10 as him gaining the ability to actually supply the Erinyes with the sort of energy they need to reform if they die in his service. It works within the logic of the lore and also adds a lot to their relative mortality right now as currently they're very much continuously vulnerable to death in a way that they've only rarely been before. If you want to just designate them as Native Outsiders, I can't stop you, but it feels like a dodge to just let us not have to worry about the possibility of losing them. And I've already outlined how I feel the lore just doesn't fit otherwise.
 
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Snowfire said:
That's...DP, I'm not trying to slot them automatically into that role. I'm trying to say that without an intrinsic connection to a force of power like what Imperium gives Viserys, or an Outer Plane, they shouldn't have the Native subtype. That is what I'm objecting to at this point. Hell, I've even gone out of my way to point out how a connection to the Imperium won't just make them LN, the link will be dictated by that argument of person above all, and though I could see some choosing to change, it'll be at their own pace.
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As long as the change is at their own peace or not at all (with some/many choosing not at all) I'm fine. It's the inevitability of moral change that irks me since it is basically brainwashing them. I do not think that is something Viserys should be doing, much less as a automatic decision.
 
Snowfire said:
I'm really not seeing that. There's the breaking of the link, sure, but unless Viserys has an actual metaphysical weight as part of the Material Plane - which in itself pretty much destroys any argument for his Mythic 10 ability existing, I cannot see how they forged a metaphysical link comparable with the one they had to Hell with the Material Plane via just swearing an oath to a lord of part of it.

That feels incredibly cheap.
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Huh. One could handwave it as PoB being an island of stability allowing an outsider to subsist without needing such a powerful connection - but that would either trap devils so released from hell's chains in the PoB (and the furies have gone to Earth, so that's not a thing unless it's like food/battery charging).
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... I like that the furies run higher risk now than they did before, untill Viserys hits mythic 10, at least. May not be relevant. May be responding to posts that have been later clarified to mean something other than what I took from them at first read. This conv moved fast.
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@Goldfish it's only creepy if you can't add Hell to your kindle's dictionary permanently.
....
:o Android phone spellcheck! Why you hate UK English spelling!?
 
DragonParadox said:
As long as the change is at their own peace or not at all (with some/many choosing not at all) I'm fine. It's the inevitability of moral change that irks me since it is basically brainwashing them. I do not think that is something Viserys should be doing, much less as a automatic decision.
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I've had an objection to that for a while now.

Statements like this, @Snowfire:
Snowfire said:
I believe the long term goal was to give them connections to Viserys' Rank 10 Mythic capstone ability to turn them into unique LN outsiders, but the alignment change is incidental to the larger goal.
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You might have gone out of your way to say the alignment change would be happenstance IC, but it certainly isn't an OOC goal for many of us.
 
DragonParadox said:
As long as the change is at their own peace or not at all (with some/many choosing not at all) I'm fine. It's the inevitability of moral change that irks me since it is basically brainwashing them. I do not think that is something Viserys should be doing, much less as a automatic decision.
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At the end of the day, my main objection remains them having the Native subtype. Imperium, given it's defined by the one possessing it, will not force a choice unless Viserys would. So it's not an issue. You'll probably have to have at least one alignment subtype shared with the alignment of the person behind the power, but that's really not a problem for Devils.
 
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Duesal said:
I've had an objection to that for a while now.

Statements like this, @Snowfire:

You might have gone out of your way to say the alignment change would be happenstance IC, but it certainly isn't an OOC goal for many of us.
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Which I've backed down from since over the course of the conversation. I was under the impression that Imperial Furies were still kinda a thing that people wanted, but it's not in any way required.
 
@DragonParadox Considering their pre-existing link with Viserys, how much effort would it take to give them the Dragon Vassal template from the Bestiary of Krynn?
 
Snowfire said:
At the end of the day, my main objection remains them having the Native subtype. Imperium, given it's defined by the one possessing it, will not force a choice unless Viserys would. So it's not an issue. You'll probably have to have at least one alignment subtype shared with the alignment of the person behind the power, but that's really not a problem for Devils.
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And that alignment can be Law none of them object to that.

I'm glad that is settled, now on to writing.:)
 
Snowfire said:
. You'll probably have to have at least one alignment subtype shared with the alignment of the person behind the power, but that's really not a problem for Devils.
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I contest this assertion! As an underlying "campfire is open to all" outsider existence support system, I view it as either Alignment-not-being-a-factor, or, TN, and supports all alignments within two steps (i.e. all alignments ;)) - i.e. Viserys would go to effort to shape his own legend to allow outsiders who do not match him room around the campfire.

DragonParadox said:
And that alignment can be Law none of them object to that.

I'm glad that is settled, now on to writing.:)
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*Instant guilt*
I am fully willing to table this, but I do not concede the point with the information I have at hand at this time. Sorry :(

But seriously, writing, please. I hunger for story
 
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BeepSmile said:
I contest this assertion! As an underlying "campfire is open to all" outsider existence support system, I view it as either Alignment-not-being-a-factor, or, TN, and supports all alignments within two steps (i.e. all alignments ;)) - i.e. Viserys would go to effort to shape his own legend to allow outsiders who do not match him room around the campfire.


*Instant guilt*
I am fully willing to table this, but I do not concede the point with the information I have at hand at this time. Sorry :(

But seriously, writing, please. I hunger for story
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It's fine, no need to feel guilty. The thing is the Imperium does have a strong element of law. That is how Visertys sees and acceptably ally, will s/he live in society will they follow the laws? I'll grant that is not quite the same as being Lawful so that may need some refinement.
 
BeepSmile said:
I contest this assertion! As an underlying "campfire is open to all" outsider existence support system, I view it as either Alignment-not-being-a-factor, or, TN, and supports all alignments within two steps (i.e. all alignments ;)) - i.e. Viserys would go to effort to shape his own legend to allow outsiders who do not match him room around the campfire.
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That would require Viserys to go True Neutral, which he never will. I'm seeing an inability to pact Chaotic Outsiders as entirely in keeping with his perspective.
 
DragonParadox said:
It's fine, no need to feel guilty. The thing is the Imperium does have a strong element of law. That is how Visertys sees and acceptably ally, will s/he live in society will they follow the laws? I'll grant that is not quite the same as being Lawful so that may need some refinement.
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If we started getting forced LN Erinyes, I'd start asking for forced LN Archons to go alongside it. Your current explanation, however, is something I'm happy with.
 
Snowfire said:
Our Archons still have their metaphysical link to Heaven. It's not the same thing.
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If they're going to be reforming in the Imperium instead of Heaven, that's a metaphysical link that couldn't be ignored. So if the Erinyes were going to be gradually forced to LN (which thankfully will not be happening) then that very same pressure would fall on the Archons.

If Viserys pacts with them to the point that they reform in the Imperium, why wouldn't that supercede the link to Heaven?
 
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Duesal said:
If they're going to be reforming in the Imperium instead of Heaven, that's a metaphysical link that couldn't be ignored. So if the Erinyes were going to be gradually forced to LN (which thankfully will not be happening) then that very same pressure would fall on the Archons.

If Viserys pacts with them to the point that they reform in the Imperium, why wouldn't that supercede the link to Heaven?
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Um...where did I imply that this was a thing that was going to happen? The Archons have no reason to do this, as they currently have a metaphysical source that they're comfortable with and that isn't screwing with them. The Erinyes right now don't.
 
Duesal said:
If they're going to be reforming in the Imperium instead of Heaven, that's a metaphysical link that couldn't be ignored. So if the Erinyes were going to be gradually forced to LN (which thankfully will not be happening) then that very same pressure would fall on the Archons.

If Viserys pacts with them to the point that they reform in the Imperium, why wouldn't that supercede the link to Heaven?
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I'd agree with this being the logical outcome too, but thankfully the beginning point, as you stated in your post, is not the case.

Funny thing about upper plane outsiders, I think that we never botherd asking if they want to not be linked to the upper planes anymore, I expect that they're all grand with keeping the link, but it feels... Kinda rude to not ask? Though again, upper plane link, pretty sure a person can be break those just by deciding to :).

Snowfire said:
That would require Viserys to go True Neutral, which he never will. I'm seeing an inability to pact Chaotic Outsiders as entirely in keeping with his perspective.
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I suppose it comes down to this for me:

Visertys sees and acceptably ally, will s/he live in society will they follow the laws? I'll grant that is not quite the same as being Lawful so that may need some refinement.

I see a Chaotic Outsider as still being entirely capable of living withing the laws of society (or, at least a non-zero number of them) and as such are entitled to the same opportunities for pact support. Now, if this is a personal pacting with Viserys and not needed for general existing within the Imperium, that's fine by me in terms of keeping it linked to who Viserys is as a person, but if it is needed for existance- stability for the outsider in question, that's a different kettle of fish.

Viserys mythic 10 legend is shaped not to the form of "Viserys is, and linked to" (therefore law alignment limit) but "People need, so Viserys provides, as no one else has provided" (resulting in alignment-apathetic support, i.e. campfire)

I hope that makes sense in word format as it does in my mind-concept form.

And I'm not retreading ground already covered.
 
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Snowfire said:
Um...where did I imply that this was a thing that was going to happen? The Archons have no reason to do this, as they currently have a metaphysical source that they're comfortable with and that isn't screwing with them. The Erinyes right now don't.
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Heaven is currently sundered with its gates literally guarded by devils, so I'd say it's fairly unsafe for them at the moment.
DragonParadox said:
Er...That might not be entirely true

Remember those documents you found way back on your first visit to Lys about the fate of the Upper Planes?

That is all I'm going to say on the matter so far so as not to spoil plot threads.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Literally as I type it out.
 
I shouldn't have brought up the topic...
Now we're squabbling again.

I only wanted to make them beautiful, is it too much to ask :cry:
 
DragonParadox said:
Er...That might not be entirely true

Remember those poems you found way back on your first visit to Lys about the fate of the Upper Planes?

That is all I'm going to say on the matter so far so as not to spoil plot threads.
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This sounds like something they would be very much aware of. If the metaphysical link isn't there, I mean.
 
Snowfire said:
This sounds like something they would be very much aware of. If the metaphysical link isn't there, I mean.
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You guys never got to asking Yrael IC about the upper planes, partly that was me pushing the arc away time and again OOC but partly it is his IC reticence to bring up the matter. I will say this much, he does not talk about heaven, at all. He talks about his fellow archons, he talks about building a better world, he does not talk about heaven.

By the way that is the arc I have planed after the conclave.
 
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Takesis said:
I shouldn't have brought up the topic...
Now we're squabbling again.

I only wanted to make them beautiful, is it too much to ask :cry:
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They already are beautiful !
It's just more of a "Ringbearer Galadriel" type of beauty. Awe-inspiring and terrifying.


She's beautiful, isn't she? But it's intimidating. Poor Frodo looks damn scared, and willpower and bravery are basically his only character traits :D

That's how Mereth is.
I always pictured it as "kneel before the beautiful" type shit. Like a Fey Lady : perfect in every way, but not someone anybody sane would try to seduce.

I said "anybody sane" to account for weirdos like Oberyn
 
DragonParadox said:
You guys never got to asking Yrael IC about the upper planes, partly that was me pushing the arc away time and again OOC but partly it is his IC reticence to bring up the matter. I will say this much, he does not talk about heaven, at all. He talks about his fellow archons, he talks about building a better world, he does not talk about heaven.

By the way that is the arc I have planed after the conclave.
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I'm very happy about this. @DragonParadox, so this means Yrael's oath to Viserys is now forever foremost?
 
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