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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
As a note guys the Furies are not redeemed, they are slightly more willing to see mortals as equals not prey some of the times but the line in their alignment is not for show, they are remorseless killers the likes of which make Gregor Clegane look like an amateur, they will fulfill the most monstrous of commands without hesitation. You guys did not hire them on out of some desire to save their souls but because they were useful and you wanted to give them a chance to become better than they were. That is all it is. As far as has been established in the story Viserys has no interest in making them better people, just people who can live in his lands in peace.
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I'm completely okay with that.

So long as they have a semblance of choice on their morals (they do, now), and no connection to Hell (they don't), they can be however much horrendous assholes and murderous bitches as they want to, so long as they obey us and our laws.

:V
 
DragonParadox said:
As a note guys the Furies are not redeemed, they are slightly more willing to see mortals as equals not prey some of the times but the line in their alignment is not for show, they are remorseless killers the likes of which make Gregor Clegane look like an amateur, they will fulfill the most monstrous of commands without hesitation. You guys did not hire them on out of some desire to save their souls but because they were useful and you wanted to give them a chance to become better than they were. That is all it is. As far as has been established in the story Viserys has no interest in making them better people, just people who can live in his lands in peace.
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I believe the long term goal was to give them connections to Viserys' Rank 10 Mythic capstone ability to turn them into unique LN outsiders, but the alignment change is incidental to the larger goal.
 
DragonParadox said:
Are you sure you want to change them on a fundamental level like that rather than let them adapt and choose slowly like Azema did?
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This isn't exactly a choice-based mechanic as I see it. Hell pushes you towards LE. This connection would push them towards LN. The choice is still theirs, but Outsiders don't have the same sort of freedom as mortals. Hell, you can see that in Azema where her metaphysical connection would sabotage everything she was trying to create and rend it apart because the Abyss is shit like that.

Given the ritual we created, the Erinyes should probably have already lost their devil subtype, though, as that's probably the most tangible link to Hell that they have. Post-ritual I'd expect their race line to look like this:

Medium outsider (evil, lawful)

They're no longer bound to Hell, so they can't be extraplanar. But they're also not devils anymore for exactly the same reason. This, by the way, should mean that if they die, they're done. They've got no energy source to fall back into and reform.

After connection to the Imperium, they'd probably gain something along the lines of an 'Imperial' subtype, and that would give them the ability to reform if slain. This won't outright make them LN, but just as Hell creates LE beings, the Imperium will embody the alignment of its ruler. Given who Viserys is, of course they'll have a choice in the matter. But over the centuries and millennia I'd expect them to change.

Form follows function. So they reflect the power they draw from
 
Snowfire said:
This isn't exactly a choice-based mechanic as I see it. Hell pushes you towards LE. This connection would push them towards LN. The choice is still theirs, but Outsiders don't have the same sort of freedom as mortals. Hell, you can see that in Azema where her metaphysical connection would sabotage everything she was trying to create and rend it apart because the Abyss is shit like that.

Given the ritual we created, the Erinyes should probably have already lost their devil subtype, though, as that's probably the most tangible link to Hell that they have. Post-ritual I'd expect their race line to look like this:

Medium outsider (evil, lawful)

They're no longer bound to Hell, so they can't be extraplanar. But they're also not devils anymore for exactly the same reason. This, by the way, should mean that if they die, they're done. They've got no energy source to fall back into and reform.

After connection to the Imperium, they'd probably gain something along the lines of an 'Imperial' subtype, and that would give them the ability to reform if slain. This won't outright make them LN, but just as Hell creates LE beings, the Imperium will embody the alignment of its ruler. Given who Viserys is, of course they'll have a choice in the matter. But over the centuries and millennia I'd expect them to change.

Form follows function. So they reflect the power they draw from
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They are native outsiders like a super-powered tiefling. Also the Imperium does not really have the same weight as Hell, so unless you guys work to change it they will remain baatezu since that is how they see themselves and their alignments will (right now) evolve just like everyone else. The pact with Viserys is not the same as being Redeemed, it makes them more creatures of the material world, only with the memories and powers of elder times.
 
DragonParadox said:
They are native outsiders like a super-powered tiefling. Also the Imperium does not really have the same weight as Hell, so unless you guys work to change it they will remain baatezu since that is how they see themselves and their alignments will (right now) evolve just like everyone else. The pact with Viserys is not the same as being Redeemed, it makes them more creatures of the material world, only with the memories and powers of elder times.
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The stuff regarding an Imperial subtype is referencing Viserys' Mythic Rank 10 ability which effectively turns him into a minor deity within the Imperium and allows Outsiders to swear to that power under the laws of the Pact Primeval.

And I'm not trying to 'redeem' them. Outsiders are what their power makes them. Choice is possible within that, but it's...difficult. So if they gain a new power source, of a different alignment, I can't see that not causing change.
 
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Snowfire said:
The stuff regarding an Imperial subtype is referencing Viserys' Mythic Rank 10 ability which effectively turns him into a minor deity within the Imperium and allows Outsiders to swear to that power under the laws of the Pact Primeval.

And I'm not trying to 'redeem' them. Outsiders are what their power makes them. Choice is possible within that, but it's...difficult. So if they gain a new power source, of a different alignment, I can't see that not causing change.
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Well yes, but what if they do not choose to be 'powered'? Viseys' argument on recruiting them was that the Blood War was wasteful and senseless, that they were just cogs in a machine turning in the void. Some of them (perhaps even a majority) probably do not want to replace Hell with the Imperium on that deep intrinsic level and would be fine dying a mortal death and just paying for their resurrection, they certainly have the will to come back like that.
 
DragonParadox said:
Well yes, but what if they do not choose to be 'powered'? Viseys' argument on recruiting them was that the Blood War was wasteful and senseless, that they were just cogs in a machine turning in the void. Some of them (perhaps even a majority) probably do not want to replace Hell with the Imperium on that deep intrinsic level and would be fine dying a mortal death and just paying for their resurrection, they certainly have the will to come back like that.
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Bringing an Outsider back from the dead requires rather a lot more than a Resurrection, just to point out. I'm not saying all of them or even most of them will choose to pact to Viserys in the manner Mythic 10 Pacting implies. I think more than a few will - that sort of intrinsic connection can't be something easy to live without after countless millennia spent with one, it's literally their normal - but in the end that's up to yourself.
 
Artemis1992 said:
No, the spell to raise Outsiders is neither higher level nor significantly more costly than Rezz.

Revive Outsider – Spell – D&D Tools
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That assumes that their body is in one piece, which at the level we're playing at, is not in any way certain. Revive Outsider requires an intact corpse. Resurrection can just be cast from a piece of bone. If their body is mangled, then it's Miracle/Wish + Revive Outsider or True Resurrection. Nothing else will suffice.
 
Snowfire said:
Bringing an Outsider back from the dead requires rather a lot more than a Resurrection, just to point out. I'm not saying all of them or even most of them will choose to pact to Viserys in the manner Mythic 10 Pacting implies. I think more than a few will - that sort of intrinsic connection can't be something easy to live without after countless millennia spent with one, it's literally their normal - but in the end that's up to yourself.
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Not for native Outsiders which the Erinyes are right now.
 
DragonParadox said:
By choosing to serve a mortal lord, on said material realm.
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That...
Leaves some questions on the nature of Outsiders in general, even for someone badly-versed in such lore as I am.

Is it something happening to Archons, Phoenixes, etc. too?
Or is that but unique to Erynies?
Or is that a consequence of the ritual, and we'd get the same result if we cook up a similar ritual for breaking off other devils away from hell?
 
DragonParadox said:
By choosing to serve a mortal lord, on said material realm.
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But...no, that's different. Native outsiders...look, this sort of link we're talking about is the same sort of metaphysical connection as they had to Hell. It grounds them in a plane of existence, and allows their energies to not dissipate into nothingness if they die. If it was that easy, more Outsiders would do it. Hell, we'd be seeing mass migration of Djinn and the like so that they could bypass True Death. We're not seeing that - we shouldn't, either. And I essentially refuse to accept the idea that this is a 'unique Erinyes thing' as they're already perilously close to stretching reason in that regard.

I can understand playing fast and loose with Outsiders for story reasons here and there. But this is...like, when @egoo is raising this as a matter of confusion, I feel that should say something. No offence meant there, egoo, but you self-admittedly don't really care much about the lore. Not a judgement, people enjoy different parts of a game.
 
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Snowfire said:
but you self-admittedly don't really care much about the lore.
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...when have I ever admitted not being interested in Pathfinder or DnD lore?
o_O

No offense taken, but the only thing I don't give a flying fuck about, and always said directly so (to the point of outright skipping in this quest), are things from canon of ASoiAF (specifically, Westeros), not DnD.

It's just that we don't often get large infusions of planar lore in-quest :V
 
egoo said:
...when have I ever admitted not being interested in Pathfinder or DnD lore?
o_O

No offense taken, but the only thing I don't give a flying fuck about, and always said directly so (to the point of outright skipping in this quest), are things from canon of ASoiAF (specifically, Westeros), not DnD.

It's just that we don't often get large infusions of planar lore in-quest :V
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Ah, misinterpretation on my part then. Apologies.
 
Snowfire said:
But...no, that's different. Native outsiders...look, this sort of link we're talking about is the same sort of metaphysical connection as they had to Hell. It grounds them in a plane of existence, and allows their energies to not dissipate into nothingness if they die. If it was that easy, more Outsiders would do it. Hell, we'd be seeing mass migration of Djinn and the like so that they could bypass True Death. We're not seeing that - we shouldn't, either. And I essentially refuse to accept the idea that this is a 'unique Erinyes thing' as they're already perilously close to stretching reason in that regard.

I can understand playing fast and loose with Outsiders for story reasons here and there. But this is...like, when @egoo is raising this as a matter of confusion, I feel that should say something. No offence meant there, egoo, but you self-admittedly don't really care much about the lore. Not a judgement, people enjoy different parts of a game.
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Here is the thing, it was not just their will. It took Viserys taking their oath, breaking their connection to Hell in a ritual after obtaining permission to do so from their current lord. That is not easy.

Anyway vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on May 13, 2019 at 5:58 AM, finished with 108 posts and 11 votes.
  • [X] Have your companions seek out Lucan's mages while you speak to one of the major players in the Starry Sept. They will operate with extreme caution, taking every reasonable step to remain undiscovered, including layering mundane disguises under their magical ones.
    -[X] Seek out Septa Maer. After introductions are made, delicately mention her shift in stance toward the practice of magic. While we are glad to see her moderate her views, the change has been rather abrupt according to what we've heard from fellow attendees. Ask what brought about such a radical shift and how those among her faction are reacting to it. This is entirely nonjudgemental, simply the curiosity of a fellow believer, trying to understand.
    --[X] If Viserys thinks it appropriate, he will broach the subject of why the Faith would need to gather so many powerful mages and turn the talents of lesser miracle workers to constructing what could be seen by others as an arsenal. For what purpose would they be gathered, and perhaps more importantly, whose? The point of this is to try and direct Maer towards the possibility of the Faith's charity being used against it, with an aim of needless war.
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DragonParadox said:
Here is the thing, it was not just their will. It took Viserys taking their oath, breaking their connection to Hell in a ritual after obtaining permission to do so from their current lord.
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So, basically, so long as we research a more "general purpose"-ritual to break all kinds Devils away from hell, we can turn all those recruited from Mammon's bunch into Native Outsiders?
Huh.

It seems, that keeping Mammon in power, but not too much power, is getting more important bit by bit now.
:/

...I want to fuck over Abraxas in the same way we did Noodle, now.
It will never happen, but since we are already very serious enemies, I can dream :V
 
DragonParadox said:
Here is the thing, it was not just their will. It took Viserys taking their oath, breaking their connection to Hell in a ritual after obtaining permission to do so from their current lord. That is not easy.
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I'm really not seeing that. There's the breaking of the link, sure, but unless Viserys has an actual metaphysical weight as part of the Material Plane - which in itself pretty much destroys any argument for his Mythic 10 ability existing, I cannot see how they forged a metaphysical link comparable with the one they had to Hell with the Material Plane via just swearing an oath to a lord of part of it. It just feels incredibly cheap.

But fine, it's not as if the Erinyes have had a good relationship with sanity on a mechanical level for a while now.
 
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egoo said:
So, basically, so long as we research a more "general purpose"-ritual to break all kinds Devils away from hell, we can turn all those recruited from Mammon's bunch into Native Outsiders?
Huh.

It seems, that keeping Mammon in power, but not too much power, is getting more important bit by bit now.
:/

...I want to fuck over Abraxas in the same way we did Noodle, now.
It will never happen, but since we are already very serious enemies, I can dream :V
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Demons are beings of Chaos, not Law, not turn a demon from their path you have to appeal to their passions, not their oaths, a sucubus falling in love and abandoning the Abyss for instance is in theory a good show of that, though the way they did it in that article was... horribly simplistic
 
Snowfire said:
I'm really not seeing that. There's the breaking of the link, sure, but unless Viserys has an actual metaphysical weight as part of the Material Plane - which in itself pretty much destroys any argument for his Mythic 10 ability existing, I cannot see how they forged a metaphysical link comparable with the one they had to Hell with the Material Plane via just swearing an oath to a lord of part of it.

That feels incredibly cheap.
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The link need not be of the same strength as the one they had to Hell in order to function. The link to Hell was much stronger, I assume, considering that it would return them to the place and automatically resurrect them if they were slain anywhere else in existence. What they have now is more like a gossamer thin silk thread compared to a heavy iron chain of the past.

Also, it seems that my Kindle doesn't like the word Hell and insists on changing it to Help every time I use it. o_O
 
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Goldfish said:
The link need not be of the same strength as the one they had to Hell in order to function. The link to Hell was much stronger, I assume, considering that it would return them to the place and automatically resurrect them if they were slain anywhere else in existence. What they have now is more like a gossamer thin thread compared to a heavy iron chain of the past.
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Except we're talking the sort of metaphysical power that allows their 'soul' for a lack of better term to just keep on hanging around in one piece instead of scattering out into diffuse pieces like it should; see how Resurrection works and Revive Outsider isn't needed. That feels like a lot more than a gossamer thread to me.
 
Snowfire said:
I'm really not seeing that. There's the breaking of the link, sure, but unless Viserys has an actual metaphysical weight as part of the Material Plane - which in itself pretty much destroys any argument for his Mythic 10 ability existing, I cannot see how they forged a metaphysical link comparable with the one they had to Hell with the Material Plane via just swearing an oath to a lord of part of it. It just feels incredibly cheap.

But fine, it's not as if the Erinyes have had a good relationship with sanity on a mechanical level for a while now.
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I'm sorry this is troubling but I'm just not comfortable with slotting them automatically into imperial servants thematically. Viserys is not just tying to become a god and get some servants. Ever since Azema and Xor a big part of his reason for accepting unlikely allies has been the belief that they are people first and foremost and should be treated as such.

Remember the Circle of Firelight/Darkness metaphor we used way back when you guys took the Deep. That only works if being outside the circle is a choice and one accepts all those who wish to step in on their own merits without trying to change them. If that is not true than what is basically the core of Viserys' morality becomes a lie and yet more hypocrisy. We've just gotten rid of that I do not want to start again.
 
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