What would be the best manner to introduce the knowledge that bargains, even those made in good faith by relatively benevolent Fey, can include such precious resources as one's own soul?

If we want to sow dissension, that's a nice bit of ammunition.

Hard to gauge that. Most of these people have kept their cards close to their chest, so teasing out the direction they will vote in the early votes and deciding when to make our play will be important. We shouldn't neglect our background assets, but it is admittedly difficult to determine how to get them hostile to each other without making it obvious we are only using our involvement in our Dywen guise to keep them squabbling. If Lucan actually plans to forge an Alliance with Kyle using my posited suggestion of allying with the Fey, fully intending on betraying them if necessary later as the Seven did with the First Men, then he is trading a lot of social capital on supporting Kyle in hopes of getting his own votes supported in turn. In which case, spending most of our attention on ensuring Kyle is either spurning Lucan (conflict of interest or just implicating him in something not in his interests) or else torpedoing the Fey votes by using the other extant factions would be best.

This won't work if every other faction is allied with Lucan, or willing to compromise with Kyle.

It's unfortunate that we don't know for sure where the Traditionalist Block will swing, because if we could get them fighting both Lucan and the Fey we could use them for Wedge votes.

Fact of the matter is we need to abuse our IC knowledge of Theological lore because we don't have any knowledge OOC, unless someone actually directly addresses us having an argument to dissect.

This effectively hamstrings our write-in bonus, but on the other hand we don't need to worry about making our items win on the floor, we only need to concern ourselves with getting people to act certain ways, say certain things and vote certain ways. Which often opens up opportunities for write-ins. Theology is effectively a dead duck. We're also basically Satan. Viserys shows he holds more regard for Lucan as a worthy opponent than as a holy man, because Viserys isn't filled with the same awe or sense of purpose that Lucan and Mel are when they try to advance their Gods' goals. The only goals that concern him are his own, which makes him poorly suited for anticipating how they will act or react. They aren't driven by ego or ambition, but will literally do the objectively best thing possible to advance their deity's goals and mission statement.

We can run circles around people. Even Mel can be made to doubt. But that was in private. In the worst possible setting she could have set herself against us. Someone like Benerro we've always maneuvered around by being honest and getting him to do what he would do anyway by promising to act as a restraining bolt against the group that wants to remove him.

So Benerro's weakness is that he loves the people. Mel's weakness is her isolation, both things which we properly exploited.

We need to exploit Lucan's weakness, and we won't be doing it by out arguing him in theology, though we can certainly give a good effort at it if the stakes are sufficient and we actually understand what we're arguing for.

Also, you could argue simply memorizing religious tracts and thesis may give us archival and encyclopedic knowledge of the Faith, but again, without being able to do things like pop open a Bible and start yanking junk straight out of there to support our arguments, we are relying on flat bonuses rather than our usual strategy of giving our opponent enough rope to hang himself with and making him argue himself into a corner, and then making it impossible for them to talk their way out of it.
 
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Yeah, I'm starting to think we have a real problem with passivity.

Looking at how we spent the last 2 days...

It's not like we stepped into here in the guise of someone who could freely maneuver on the floor of the Conclave, which would have taken considerable more effort than just getting an in with a faction we hoped to either restrain covertly or support overtly just to keep them from being dead in the water. With the revelation of a possible alliance that limits us somewhat.

There was no first move here other than supporting Kyle, which would have been presumptuous since the first issue was obviously meant to determine who would make common cause and who would not.

Also, we have the benefit of knowing Kyle's motivations given our extensive knowledge of the Court of Stars' plans. Whether or not he knows what they plan on doing doesn't really matter so much as the levers being worked in the background causing him to push that agenda.

Lucan could either be using the Conclave simply to make allies, or he could be trying to gain legitimacy from the Conclave. Viserys own internal thoughts on the idea of him using it to try to reinstate the Faith Militant was that "he couldn't do it". For a variety of reasons. Meaning we can ascertain, by our informed knowledge of Viserys knowing his shit vis a vis politics, that his motive is to gain allies. With the Lannister power bloc in the way, he risks starting a conflict that does nothing but drain the resources and fighting capability from all that oppose us. Sure, it will be very bloody and we would be picking up the shattered pieces of a continent, but we would still be the ones picking them up and winning in the end, and probably ripping apart everything all of these factions are hoping to protect in the process to ensure it never happens again.

So we can make some informed decisions based off of that... but we have to choose to make them, and when.
 
Wanna take our concerns regarding father Kyle's plans to Lucan?

I'm...

I'm feeling pretty discouraged honestly.

Edit: I'm starting to feel for Danelle, If this goes well for him I'm going to REALLY wish we'd talked to her sooner.

I also feel like we now MASSIVELY fucked up by not seeking him out to get a read before the conclave.
 
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Wanna take our concerns regarding father Kyle's plans to Lucan?

I'm...

I'm feeling pretty discouraged honestly.

I suspect strongly that Lucan would exploit it. He doesn't appear to be someone who will act impulsively. Every option will advance his agenda. More information just helps him form a better picture of how to manipulate the other players. We have an advantage of having more information than any one group, so we shouldn't give up that advantage freely in the equivalent of throwing in the proverbial towel right out the gate.
 
I suspect strongly that Lucan would exploit it. He doesn't appear to be someone who will act impulsively. Every option will advance his agenda. More information just helps him form a better picture of how to manipulate the other players. We have an advantage of having more information than any one group, so we shouldn't give up that advantage freely in the equivalent of throwing in the proverbial towel right out the gate.
I feel like this is the wrong kind of approach to take honestly.

We've been passive and it just bit us in the ass, and we have a habit of doing just that.
 


Fite me.

I'd thought I'd never see the day I actually have to say this:

Bad Doggo

And here we have a a measurable contribution to my opinion of how most memes are garbage.

Oh Icyhot, no. How you gonna crush their hopes like that? You just nod along sagely and go 'I can neither confirm nor deny'. ;):V

I'm already going to be crushing their dreams enough. No need to start this early.
 
Wanna take our concerns regarding father Kyle's plans to Lucan?

I'm...

I'm feeling pretty discouraged honestly.

Edit: I'm starting to feel for Danelle, If this goes well for him I'm going to REALLY wish we'd talked to her sooner.

I also feel like we now MASSIVELY fucked up by not seeking him out to get a read before the conclave.
We're currently limited by the role we needed to assume in order to get an invitation and chance to speak. There's only so much we can do if we want to hide our presence and machinations.
 
I feel like this is the wrong kind of approach to take honestly.

We've been passive and it just bit us in the ass, and we have a habit of doing just that.

It was the first vote and it was about fey pacts. Whether the faith said it was or wasn't sinful people would do it. In the reach the lords are already bought so the citizenry are already doing this. Now sure they might do it more but in all honesty we can circumvent that next month.

Edit: To put this into perspective we gave them a fluff vote. Something they can all agree on.
 
We're currently limited by the role we needed to assume in order to get an invitation and chance to speak. There's only so much we can do if we want to hide our presence and machinations.
I feel like doing so has been a waste basically.

It's like... We were so confident Lucan would oppose him on this, and we were totally wrong.

I'm starting to see the looming specter of disaster.
 
I feel like doing so has been a waste basically.

It's like... We were so confident Lucan would oppose him on this, and we were totally wrong.

I'm starting to see the looming specter of disaster.

No really, @TalonofAnathrax made a really good point just now, a really underrated one.

When we can't outmaneuver our opponents, we just fucking murder them. Every single time when we have met a canny opponent, we have turned our efforts entirely towards forcing them into the open and then killing or capturing them.

A worst case scenario is being forced into doing so in such a way that it is indiscriminate and can be traced back to us. With magic it is nearly impossible to guess who a guy got disappeared by, even if they're high profile like Lucan or Varys, because they can just be replaced.

A real worst case scenario is an opponent who actually sets up enough paranoid contingencies that we actually have to make some sacrifices instead of flipping over the chess table and playing hockey instead, with their ambitions as the puck.

Edit: Some might say this actually acts as a detractor towards my 'we can't just throw in the towel yet' argument earlier, but in reality this is just emblematic of the setting we are in.

It's not ASoIaF if you can't beat someone by stabbing them while they're taking a shit or eating dinner. :V
 
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No really, @TalonofAnathrax made a really good point just now, a really underrated one.

When we can't outmaneuver our opponents, we just fucking murder them. Every single time when we have met a canny opponent, we have turned our efforts entirely towards forcing them into the open and then killing or capturing them.

A worst case scenario is being forced into doing so in such a way that it is indiscriminate and can be traced back to us. With magic it is nearly impossible to guess who a guy got disappeared by, even if they're high profile like Lucan or Varys, because they can just be replaced.

A real worst case scenario is an opponent who actually sets up enough paranoid contingencies that we actually have to make some sacrifices instead of flipping over the chess table and playing hockey instead, with their ambitions as the puck.
This is not helping.
 
This is not helping.

It's not much worse than defeatist comments about how disaster is approaching, when to be honest, disaster happening and then fighting or thinking our way around it is half the fun of intrigue.

I know not everyone likes that stuff, but you could at least play to the crowd if you expect thoughtful discussion and plans being made.

I even kind of liked that "talk to Lucan about Kyle's plans" idea. We could at least see how far down the river those two are willing to sell everyone else if they get their way.
 
It's not much worse than defeatist comments about how disaster is approaching, when to be honest, disaster happening and then fighting or thinking our way around it is half the fun of intrigue.

I know not everyone likes that stuff, but you could at least play to the crowd if you expect thoughtful discussion and plans being made.

I even kind of liked that "talk to Lucan about Kyle's plans" idea. We could at least see how far down the river those two are willing to sell everyone else if they get their way.
O.k.

Time to stow the defeatist crap then.

I think we should leave the conclave tonight and meet up with Danelle to get a read on her and talk about what our long term goals regarding the seven are.

I also want to meet with Lucan, in disguise or not, and actually get a read on him.

I feel like he's gone totally Maverick and that's super bad.
 
I don't understand why we need to hide our presence, when everyone who apparently matters knows we're here already.

We talked with Lucans angel, do you guys think he forgot about us or...?
 
That they know that we are around does not mean they know the manner or our ways.

Lucan's whole PoV of us probably means he is expecting us to kill everyone here
 
I don't understand why we need to hide our presence, when everyone who apparently matters knows we're here already.

We talked with Lucans angel, do you guys think he forgot about us or...?

I'm mostly just really angry that people keep giving me Insightful ratings when they should be giving me Funny ratings. I am posting delirious bullshit with a sprig of common sense and then piling on the tongue in cheek serial killer comedy when that falls flat.

I think the nuance of some of my comments is lost because I'm not trying to contextualize them as jokes though.

People, don't vote for me. This is almost a non-vote. I probably should have prefaced the second vote with a comment like "okay, so now we know sort of what the different groups of pursuing and what they might do, if you paid attention to the update anyway and saw each faction leader's reaction, which DP kindly made sure were explicit as possible since Viserys has the advantage of watching for them".

Talking to Maer to see what she thinks is almost less of a good idea than spilling all of our secrets to Lucan in the hopes that he'll flip his shit, when in the update he made it very clear that he's cool as a cucumber most of the time.

I will not be writing any good votes. But I will point out as many obvious scenarios as possible since I think if I talk enough about what all the NPCs are doing eventually someone will be like "maybe we should do something about that".

Instead it inspired several "this sure doesn't look good, does it boss?" comments.

I'm sure that is very helpful to those few people here who actually care enough about both social votes, politics and intrigue to try to come up with a plan.
 
I don't understand why we need to hide our presence, when everyone who apparently matters knows we're here already.

We talked with Lucans angel, do you guys think he forgot about us or...?
No one knows we are here in the Conclave. Lucan knows we might be in Old Town. He doesn't know we're Dywen.

We can meet Danelle sooner than planned, if necessary, but that has nothing to do with the current plan.
 
Actually, why did I keep the vote up when several people voted for me and didn't comment on what just occurred, anyway?

[X] Abstain
 
[X] Approach one of the other factions
-[X] Introduce ourselves to Most Devout Aglantine. Ask her opinions on matters of magic, it's place in relation to the Faith and Westeros, and what she thinks of the latest vote among the Conclave to accept the practice of mortals making bargains with the Fey.
--[X] If she seems amenable, and we can arrange to speak with her without eavesdroppers nearby, share with her some of what we know about the Court of Stars and their plans for the Reach. If she opposed something as relatively benign as the Fey making bargains with humans, she might react with considerably more vigor to learning such a disturbing truth.
---[X] Carefully maintain the Dywen persona; our revelations for Aglantine shouldn't seem like we are trying to stoke her fears or prejudices, but that we are instead concerned that the Conclave may be manipulated by other interests who are only showing a small portion of a much larger portrait.
 
I'm mostly just really angry that people keep giving me Insightful ratings when they should be giving me Funny ratings. I am posting delirious bullshit with a sprig of common sense and then piling on the tongue in cheek serial killer comedy when that falls flat.

I think the nuance of some of my comments is lost because I'm not trying to contextualize them as jokes though.

People, don't vote for me. This is almost a non-vote. I probably should have prefaced the second vote with a comment like "okay, so now we know sort of what the different groups of pursuing and what they might do, if you paid attention to the update anyway and saw each faction leader's reaction, which DP kindly made sure were explicit as possible since Viserys has the advantage of watching for them".

Talking to Maer to see what she thinks is almost less of a good idea than spilling all of our secrets to Lucan in the hopes that he'll flip his shit, when in the update he made it very clear that he's cool as a cucumber most of the time.

I will not be writing any good votes. But I will point out as many obvious scenarios as possible since I think if I talk enough about what all the NPCs are doing eventually someone will be like "maybe we should do something about that".

Instead it inspired several "this sure doesn't look good, does it boss?" comments.

I'm sure that is very helpful to those few people here who actually care enough about both social votes, politics and intrigue to try to come up with a plan.
You convinced me to actually try and contribute rathe than sink deeper into a funk.

So, the plan going in was to leverages Lucans and everyone else's indecision and confusion into a schism.

@Goldfish any ideas for how we sow those seeds without damaging our standing/persona?

Could we perhaps give her just enough information to reach that conclusion on her own later?
 
You convinced me to actually try and contribute rathe than sink deeper into a funk.

So, the plan going in was to leverages Lucans and everyone else's indecision and confusion into a schism.

@Goldfish any ideas for how we sow those seeds without damaging our standing/persona?

Could we perhaps give her just enough information to reach that conclusion on her own later?
I think Lucan is willing to make any deal he needs to, or at least pretend to, if it secures him an official leadership position among the Faith. His duplicity would only need to last until he fully secured his position.

If we want to nudge a bloc into forming which will oppose Lucan, we can only afford to be subtle up to a certain point.

After Aglatine, we should probably try to speak with Ollidor next, I think.
 
I'm tired, BTW, and won't be online much longer. If y'all see something that needs to be changed spot added to my plan, please say so.

/sleepy
 
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