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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
Do you guys want to see team Bear vs Amrelth in an interlude or should I just append it to an update? I ask because it's going to be brief and less weighty than when he fought the knights.
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I think a short appendage should be enough.
I doubt anything spectecular will happen and Amy can hardly make more of a show than he already did without greater foes.

Not worth showing much.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
One could argue that literally everyone is Westeros have done a shit job for not developing their lands. A lot of the story doesnt really talk about immigration and land reform. Concepts that are more modern than what Westeros is used to.
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No!
Westeros has definitely seen lots of technological progress in the last few millennia. It's just that like IRL, none of it was as wildly impressive as the 1800-2019 stretch.
Furthermore places like the Reach have managed to develop trade and artisan classes, as well as varied form of economic activity. Meanwhile the Mormonts, like much of the North, seem to have stalled somewhere between "Viking" and "upper middle ages Feudalism".
 
Crake said:
Problem: While this is all very profitable, it presupposes a few things. The previous conversation was starting low level industry with available resources, including manpower.

Bear Island does not have the people to do more than basic subsistance farming off limited arable land, if it possesses any. They could probably feed their entire island with more arable land if we produced it via earth formation, volcanic ash from SotD, but they would have to turn over every stone and pull away fishers and the like to start exporting grain.

They have enough people to man perhaps several ships, and that's probably by dragging away everyone else already working a small fishing ship or boat. They could do basic resource trading like furs and the like, but setting up mining enclaves? Ice cutting and shipping?

This is all extremely labor intensive. They could just barely afford, in manpower, with skilled trainers from Ibben, afford to man one, maybe two but that's stretching it, whaling ships.

It would take at least three generations going full-bore with access to ample food before they could start working several ships without pulling away too many people from other economic activities, four before they could start establishing a permanent presence north of the Wall.
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Bear Island as a whole doesn't make sense and shouldn't be poor. It's huge, approximately 200 miles wide east-west and 150 miles north-south. If we take the smaller measurement as reflective of its actual size and estimate it as a circle, it comes out to at least ~70,000 square miles. For reference, that's almost twice the size of Newfoundland or Cuba. The island is described as being warm enough to have oak trees on it. That means that the temperature can't be that cold (perhaps slightly warmer than Scotland, year round?) because oaks do not grow well in the cold. Additionally, oaks require significant and fertile soil in order to set their roots down. This tells me that Bear Island should have more than adequate soil to grow its own food as it's deep and nutrient rich. It's at the same longitude as Last Hearth and the later is described as having difficulty feeding itself only in the harshest winters.

If anything, this tells us the Bear Island should be more populated than a comparable slice of Last Hearth. Bear Island is renowned for its sailors and the frequency with which they go to sea. People can farm during the summers and then when winter snows stop it, they can fish; the people of Last Heart starve or resort to cannibalism. The people of Bear Island fish often enough that they ended up leaving their wives vulnerable to Ironborn raids and thus engendering their ideals of warrior womanhood.

Additionally, only setting up colonies in the Frostfangs is really manpower intensive. Cutting ice from the Frozen Shore would be no more difficult than fishing in those waters and it doesn't require extensive equipment. Ice was preserved in the past by stuffing it in ship holds filled with sawdust. That's all that's really needed and we know that Bear Island has sailors, ships, and sawdust; and every ship should naturally carry axes and saws, so it could cut ice. Trading with the Wildlings wouldn't be manpower intensive either. All that you would need to do is reassign a few of their fishing fleet to trade instead. Longships and other, comparable vessels like sloops can carry cargo to trade or fish. Given how reluctant the Wildlings are going to be to trade, it's likely you'd only need a few ships anyway; a single ship can carry tons upon tons of cargo.

Lastly, when it comes to manpower, Bear Island has a significant advantage: their women are trained to fight too. This means that they have double the regular reserve of manpower and their colonies would be extremely hard to attack for that reason. They'd still need to source miners and prospectors from somewhere, but given its size, Bear Island should have some mining, even if it's not famous or renowned. Iron is heavy and hard to move so sourcing it locally drastically reduces the cost and iron is wonderful because it's extremely common. Realistically, of all of these options, only the colonies are difficult to set up.

If Jorah Mormont had been smart, it would've been fairly easy for him to set himself up for success, even if Bear Island is as poor as it's purported to be, despite common sense. After Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, Jorah was a war hero and he had Robert's ear. If he asked for royal funds to set up a fleet in Bear Island to counter the Ironborn, he would've gotten it. Robert was always a spendthrift and it makes sense for the North to have some type of navy on the west coast. It's necessary to counter the Ironborn and the Wildlings who raid the island and past the Night's Watch. Using the money to set up major harbours, timber extraction, iron mining, charcoal burning, etc.; and then using that to supply the fleet would have allowed him to build up extensive local industry, manpower, and military force. Setting aside the likely hundreds of thousands of Gold Dragons Jorah could've gotten from Robert (we see Robert drop at least 100,000 Gold Dragons on a frivolous tournament), it's likely that Jorah could've gotten additional funds from Ned Stark as well. That's still setting aside any money he could personally raise and the loans his Hightower father-in-law would likely give him at a good rate.

Money was not an issue if Jorah was intelligent (he had tons of money, he just spent it foolishly) and it doesn't make sense for manpower to be an issue either.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
No!
Westeros has definitely seen lots of technological progress in the last few millennia. It's just that like IRL, none of it was as wildly impressive as the 1800-2019 stretch.
Furthermore places like the Reach have managed to develop trade and artisan classes, as well as varied form of economic activity. Meanwhile the Mormonts, like much of the North, seem to have stalled somewhere between "Viking" and "upper middle ages Feudalism".
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Could I get a source for this? I recall ASIOF to be very upper-middle ages throughout its existence. Braavos and the free cities seemed more like mid-renaissance Italy with it banks and stuff. I don't recall anything suggesting that the Reach had trade and artisan classes.
 
@DragonParadox, have the Night's Watch presented any proper sacrifices before their Heart Trees yet? There are plenty of Winterborn creatures nearby in the Haunted Forest.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 8, 2019 at 11:57 AM, finished with 66 posts and 8 votes.
  • [X] Plan Minion Acquisition, Fey Edition
    -[X] Agree, Silore gets a barony over the lands she has long watched over as a vassal of Oberyn Sandviper
    -[X] Try to recruit her
    --[X] Greet Dirriz politely, as one Dragon to another. Have Dany gently distract the children who have gathered around the Faerie Dragon, leading them away so that we can speak with her unobserved.
    ---[X] "There aren't so many Dragons about in the world, or even the Planes at large, that we would pass up the opportunity to befriend another of our kindred, distantly related though she may be."
    ----[X] Without too much dissembling, offer Dirriz a place in our service, where she will have many chances to grow not only her power, but also her hoard. As she may have seen from the competitions and during her time in Sorcerer's Deep, we pay our people very well and virtually shower them in expensive enchanted equipment.
    -----[X] She could have her pick of tasks, from helping us deal with Reach Fey, to exploring the Green Hell of Sothoryos, or even accompanying the Grand Expedition Fleet on its trip to Yi-Ti.
    --[X] Whether she chooses to enter our service or refuses, attempt to learn more of her powers, especially from whom they originate.
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Duesal said:
They'll manage it soon enough. If needed we can lend some PCs of our own to guide them through their first sacrifice.

I'm more excited about finally getting Grafton to discreetly sacrifice Corbray.
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I mean hopefully he kills the Corbray before we invade Westeros. That would be a huge middle finger to the Seven by someone who isn't us. For once.
 
Varys is now all but certain to face an enemy where drawing on Viserys' magic will be entirely reasonable.

The hype is real.
 
Azel said:
Dirriz is a powerful True Dragon that gpt hit by a Fey curse for disrespecting someone too powerful. Her power growing is just her unlocking closer access to her true self that is locked within her.
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That makes surprisingly much sense.
She has the Dragon Mystery, so growing in level makes her indeed more draconic.
And the access to Divine Spells could also be explained by AD-AI.

In that case her Curse (Covetous) wouldn't be a curse at all, but rather her true nature.
 
Artemis1992 said:
That makes surprisingly much sense.
She has the Dragon Mystery, so growing in level makes her indeed more draconic.
And the access to Divine Spells could also be explained by AD-AI.

In that case her Curse (Covetous) wouldn't be a curse at all, but rather her true nature.
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That would be hilarious. What kind of True Dragon would she be in this case?
 
Snowfire said:
Varys is now all but certain to face an enemy where drawing on Viserys' magic will be entirely reasonable.

The hype is real.
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I would really prefer she not use any additional magic lended to her by Viserys. She's already really well geared and benefiting from being the familiar of a 17th level True Dragon. That's more than enough cheese, IMO.
 
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