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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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tarrangar said:
I disagree, Jorah broke the law of Westeros, it might not be ours at the moment, but he nonetheless broke it, we only pardon slavers provided they give up slaving, and that's because the law is not retroactive, slaving was legal under the previous administration, and so if they give it up now that it's outlawed, they aren't criminals, Jorah on the other hand come from a country that outlaw slavery, and so he's a criminal even if not against us, which mean he don't have the protection, of only doing what his country say is okay.

If we find other countries that outlaw slavery, and then find people who were slavers anyway, then they will be treated as if they were imperial citizens committing slavery, because while the no slavery law only come in effect, when we take over if it wasn't there already, if it was there already, then people who broke it wont get a pardon.

It's not like we have been freeing everyone, who was in the dungeons of the places we conquered, if their crime wasn't illegal under Imperial law, then they should have been freed, but if it was illegal under Imperial law, then the best they could hope for was a retrial, in case the punishment by Imperial law is more lenient.

If we ever capture a Bravoosi slaver, then they wont get amnesty either, as they can't say that it's legal by their people's laws.

That's not the same, attacking a country don't make you a citizen of that country, and while a country will certainly enforce their laws on you while you are visiting, it's the country you're a citizen of, that you are expected to follow the law of no matter where you are.
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Fair enough though it bears mentioning that there were plenty of Westerosi exiles in the Stepstones many of whom became slavers, it would have just been unfeasible to try and sort out who was born under which laws and if they happened to break them at some point in their life. None of this applies to Jorah of course.
 
@Azel When was it that we were planning to hit the Adamantine mine? Late next month, right?
 
Goldfish said:
@Azel When was it that we were planning to hit the Adamantine mine? Late next month, right?
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It should have been next month, yeah. We were going to rob a shipment, then proceed to take over the entire mine and get support from the Djinn and the Shaitan to actually have it run to our advantage.

Fingers crossed for Efreeti sacrifices.
 
[X] Azel
//
Due procedure: "First you get your trial, then it's either the rope or the Wall."
 
So on the one hand, Jorah doesn't seem to have broken our laws, and we undoubtedly have recruited people who have done things that were very illegal in the places where they were before we got to them. In fact some of them are our sworn vassals now (looking at you, Saan). If Jorah is just minding his own business somewhere in our territory, then he's essentially one of our citizens. The question becomes do we intend to extradite Imperial citizens to foreign powers for political capitol? Because that's clearly why we'd be doing it, you can't really argue we'd be doing it to make him face justice or something without it sounding farcically hypocritical.

On the other hand, it would be a nice bit of political convenience.
 
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Sqweaktoy said:
So on the one hand, Jorah doesn't seem to have broken our laws, and we undoubtedly have recruited people who have done things that were very illegal in the places where they were before we got to them. In fact some of them our our sworn vassals now (looking at you, Saan). If Jorah is just minding his own business somewhere in our territory, then he's essentially one of our citizens. The question becomes do we intend to extradite Imperial citizens to foreign powers for political capitol? Because that's clearly why we'd be doing it, you can't really argue we'd be doing it to make him face justice or something without it sounding farcically hypocritical.

On the other hand, it would be a nice bit of political convenience.
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We are a government. The extradition of criminals or lack thereof is always a political horse trade. And let's be honest. If any of our citizens stole something valuable in the Opaline Vault, we would throw him to the stone-wolves in a heartbeat.
 
Azel said:
We are a government. The extradition of criminals or lack thereof is always a political horse trade. And let's be honest. If any of our citizens stole something valuable in the Opaline Vault, we would throw him to the stone-wolves in a heartbeat.
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I'm happy trading Jorah back to the Mormonts in exchange for having Aly nip some of our Legion soldiers. Seems like a fair trade to me.
 
Sqweaktoy said:
So on the one hand, Jorah doesn't seem to have broken our laws, and we undoubtedly have recruited people who have done things that were very illegal in the places where they were before we got to them. In fact some of them are our sworn vassals now (looking at you, Saan). If Jorah is just minding his own business somewhere in our territory, then he's essentially one of our citizens. The question becomes do we intend to extradite Imperial citizens to foreign powers for political capitol? Because that's clearly why we'd be doing it, you can't really argue we'd be doing it to make him face justice or something without it sounding farcically hypocritical.

On the other hand, it would be a nice bit of political convenience.
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I'd be all for continuing this practice unless we had serious reason not to give up the hypothetical criminal. It's very much a case-by-case basis, and in most cases political convenience triumphs.
 
Azel said:
We are a government. The extradition of criminals or lack thereof is always a political horse trade. And let's be honest. If any of our citizens stole something valuable in the Opaline Vault, we would throw him to the stone-wolves in a heartbeat.
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I would honestly be pretty fricking impressed if somebody did manage that.

If he has managed to turn over a new leaf its for his family to decide to forgive him or not.
 
Azel said:
We are a government. The extradition of criminals or lack thereof is always a political horse trade. And let's be honest. If any of our citizens stole something valuable in the Opaline Vault, we would throw him to the stone-wolves in a heartbeat.
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I mean, none of that really disagrees with anything in my post. Like I said, it would be a nice bit of politics.
The question shouldn't be 'does Jorah deserve X or Y' but 'is what the Imperial Government gets out of it worth the trade'.
Though I will note that the Opaline Vault is a bit different in that we have established treaties and diplomatic relations with that polity. This is an extradition to a government we are nominally hostile towards in order to foster more positive relations.
Seems worth it to me, but we should be asking the right question is all.
 
Duesal said:
I'd be all for continuing this practice unless we had serious reason not to give up the hypothetical criminal. It's very much a case-by-case basis, and in most cases political convenience triumphs.
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An interesting question for you, does 'being innocent' count as a serious reason not to give them up? What about 'being innocent of anything we would consider a crime'?
What if it was an incredibly valuable ally or a faction that could and would materially harm large sections of the Imperium if we refused?

For a more tangible example, would we send a runaway slave back to the Opaline Vault?
 
Sqweaktoy said:
An interesting question for you, does 'being innocent' count as a serious reason not to give them up? What about 'being innocent of anything we would consider a crime'?
What if it was an incredibly valuable ally or a faction that could and would materially harm large sections of the Imperium if we refused?

For a more tangible example, would we send a runaway slave back to the Opaline Vault?
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Those, as always, do have a few quantifiers in "convenience" to us.

For example, does our ally know we have their escaped slave? Are they just running from their former life, or have they also committed serious crimes in their escape? Can we provide them new skin via reincarnation to live a new life, or do their circumstances disallow a change like this? Are they already hot on their heels and likely to ask questions that would force us into a lie?

Basically, while we would all like to do the "right thing", we don't like to cut corners and risk a lot of something for comparatively little. If we can however "feel good" for little cost, we usually do it, because those kind of things tend to not only kickback and pay off later on, but they are nice to do.
 
Remember, a vote for Crake is a vote for Azel!

Unless for some reason we're both diametrically opposed for some reason or another.

It can happen!
 
Sqweaktoy said:
An interesting question for you, does 'being innocent' count as a serious reason not to give them up? What about 'being innocent of anything we would consider a crime'?
What if it was an incredibly valuable ally or a faction that could and would materially harm large sections of the Imperium if we refused?

For a more tangible example, would we send a runaway slave back to the Opaline Vault?
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An actual innocent would be a lot more problematic because that would inevitably spawn party drama. Fortunately with Jorah he's a slaver and thus politically convenient to toss to the chopping block.

The rest of the hypotheticals don't really make sense to me, since we'd have to be willing to give up a valuable ally for some greater reward which I generally don't see happening.

As for the "tangible example" I can confidently say we are not starting shit with the Opaline Vault by harboring their runaway slaves. No. Just no. That is how you get a pissed-off ally and a broken alliance.
 
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