I think that any Diabolist is too delusional way before the point where any plan is about to come to fruition to be able to make an accurate assessment of that.

I feel a little hypocritical because it would be all too easy to accuse of being the same, I guess the academic difference being meaningless to 99% of people in that we only summon fiends to kill them or turn them into God Food isn't much solace.

That's a big part of why I really dislike summoning stuff. Calling stuff already out in the wild is one thing... but it's not as though I regret taking Fallen Angels into our service. They're worth more alive, can do more good alive over a longer period of time, and would have still been serving Hell otherwise, so by any any metric it's the right choice to have made... but there's just no convincing anyone of that, and I'm not sure if we'd be right to, either. It isn't lost on anyone that we hide their nature, I'm sure. Least of all the Erinyes themselves.
Not before people who can understand the situation.
Everyone at our conference, even the mortals, was told what they are.

We are only hiding their nature because we can't explain to each person in the world directly why their case is different from most fiendcalling.

I'm actually somewhat confident that in time and with education we can at least tell all our Scholarium students.
Just the masses of common people are a few generations of education and indoctrination away from us being able to share the truth.
 
I think that any Diabolist is too delusional way before the point where any plan is about to come to fruition to be able to make an accurate assessment of that.

I feel a little hypocritical because it would be all too easy to accuse of being the same, I guess the academic difference being meaningless to 99% of people in that we only summon fiends to kill them or turn them into God Food isn't much solace.

That's a big part of why I really dislike summoning stuff. Calling stuff already out in the wild is one thing... but it's not as though I regret taking Fallen Angels into our service. They're worth more alive, can do more good alive over a longer period of time, and would have still been serving Hell otherwise, so by any any metric it's the right choice to have made... but there's just no convincing anyone of that, and I'm not sure if we'd be right to, either. It isn't lost on anyone that we hide their nature, I'm sure. Least of all the Erinyes themselves.

Breaker. Of. Chains.

Somebody is going to realize were trying to break the chains on people minds as much as on their bodies eventually.

Even those of outsiders, why would we stop at humans?

We're like a protean if proteans weren't super shitty at their job.
 
Viserys Excuse Generator Responses 65-A through 65-F:

"Helps her acquire new lab specimens?"

"It keeps me sharp?"

"Keeps me out of her hair."

"Everybody needs a hobby."

"Look, you sound really judgmental right now. Lya is way more supportive of my interest in planetary domination."

...

"She offered to make stand-ins who could do all the work. But I don't want to retire to the Beach Party Demiplane yet. I'm still young! I can support myself!"

"Ok, Grandpa. Let's get you back to the Palace. We can have a nice cup of tea, alright?"

"Nice try, youngster. But I wasn't born on yesterday. Except that one time when I traveled back in time after an accidental wrong turn through the Feywild--"

"Grandpa, why don't you tell me this story I've heard like fifty times on the way home?"

"No respect..."
Viserys as Rodney Dangerfield. Damn now I can't help but imagine the young Rodney Dangerfield in Game of Thrones.
"No respect at all."
 
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Why not straight up Miracle?
As far as I can see removing any magical traces of enchantment (for which Miracle or Wish are the strongest options, working on every form of it that exists in D&D) while also doing as much healing as possible (where Miracle should do better than the level 3 spell it can easily copy) looks like a better option than just Heart's Ease.

Level 18 Viserys cannot cast Miracle twenty-something times in a single day. Not even with cheat bedroll. It also wouldn't work quite as you appear to be imagining.
 
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Because of the job occupation of our MCs. <doing their job> != <sane>


Varys I see, but what did Pycelle do that requires soul-death?
Being a prick is a good enough reason for me also given who he is its more likely for him to end up in Barbados Barbados hell he'll end up in hell. So really soul deaths a mercy.
 
Being a prick is a good enough reason for me also given who he is its more likely for him to end up in Barbados Barbados hell he'll end up in hell. So really soul deaths a mercy.

No. If the Tyroshi magister who murdered and tortured so many slave children that a Fey of death and corruption spontaneously manifested on his plantation didnt get sacrificed and just hanged, than its going to take a lot more than "Eh hes an asshole" for be to bend on this.

Imprison him in a divination proof chamber, or whatever but not soul death
 
No. If the Tyroshi magister who murdered and tortured so many slave children that a Fey of death and corruption spontaneously manifested on his plantation didnt get sacrificed and just hanged, than its going to take a lot more than "Eh hes an asshole" for be to bend on this.

Imprison him in a divination proof chamber, or whatever but not soul death
The tyroshi magisters didn't get sacrificed only because getting rid of them would literally get rid of the government. Viscerys can't do that because then there's be no one to govern. It would mostly be illiterate peasants with the exception of slaves raised specifically to be literate. If we could have we would have a sacrificed them all but that's wasn't viable sacrificing the small council on the other hand is completely viable as there's plenty who could replace them. Plus that specific one was better as a public affair anyway.
 
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Varys I see, but what did Pycelle do that requires soul-death?

Nothing, as above. He dies or is kept prisoner for the rest of his days, sure. But if he dies, he does so cleanly - I'd actually prefer to keep him alive and in good health so that any divinations that graze him by proxy show that he's still alive. Makes it harder for the simulacrum to be busted.

Mortal punishment for mortal crimes.
 
No. If the Tyroshi magister who murdered and tortured so many slave children that a Fey of death and corruption spontaneously manifested on his plantation didnt get sacrificed and just hanged, than its going to take a lot more than "Eh hes an asshole" for be to bend on this.

Imprison him in a divination proof chamber, or whatever but not soul death
That was a straight up demon actually.
 
Nothing, as above. He dies or is kept prisoner for the rest of his days, sure. But if he dies, he does so cleanly - I'd actually prefer to keep him alive and in good health so that any divinations that graze him by proxy show that he's still alive. Makes it harder for the simulacrum to be busted.

Mortal punishment for mortal crimes.
Eh your right he's worth more alive its not as if he has to much to give as a sacrifice.
 
The tyroshi magisters didn't get sacrificed only because getting rid of them would literally get rid of the government. Viscerys can't do that because then there's be no one to govern. It would mostly be illiterate peasants with the exception of slaves raised specifically to be literate. If we could have we would have a sacrificed them all but that's wasn't viable sacrificing the small council on the other hand is completely viable as there's plenty who could replace them. Plus that specific one was better as a public affair anyway.

I'm not talking about the Tyroshi magisters as a whole? Did you read that part of the quest? We did not completely gut the ruling class for the reasons stated, but egregiously cruel people like Mr "Imma just gonna hang half a dozen kids from the kid hanging tree and whip another batch of kids to death! Oh whoops spontaneous demon fey manifestation!" were killed. And even if their actions inadvertently lead to demon summoning, we did not punish them the same as the intentional demon summoners.

Regardless, this is all distracting from the point that just "being a prick," is nowhere near the standard for OG fertilizer much less total soul death.

And what the fuck is this "oh he'll end up in hell anyways, no point in feeling guilty, we're doing Pycelle a favor!" utter bullshit? One of the key themes in this quest is that nothing is absolute, and even devils can be redeemed and rediscover joy. Sure it's not feasible, practical or moral to try and redeem everyone like we're in some PG cartoon show, but saying that utter oblivion of a mortal soul is somehow merciful since its fate is garunteed goes against everything Viserys, Lya, etc have accomplished.
 
Regardless, this is all distracting from the point that just "being a prick," is nowhere near the standard for OG fertilizer much less total soul death.

Agreed at 3000%. As I said then with that magister, where I prevailed in the end if I recall, I say again now. Mortal punishment for mortal crimes.

Supernatural punishment for supernatural crimes.

There has to be separation.
 
> Implying firefrog read the quest when they have repeatedly said and shown that they haven't

And I like our policy. Let's not start feeding mundane slavers to the trees.
 
THE LAW must be followed, especially if it's our LAW. LAW ensures consistency in judgement, closest we can ever come to approximate JUSTICE. :p
 
Agreed at 3000%. As I said then with that magister, where I prevailed in the end if I recall, I say again now. Mortal punishment for mortal crimes.

Supernatural punishment for supernatural crimes.

There has to be separation.
I mean it doesn't have to be. It should be it clearly doesn't have to be considering legal systems aren't perfect even if those of a plane of law might disagree. Besides at this point I've been convinced of your guys opinion anyway. It wasn't very hard either it took like one sentence to convince me I was wrong. My opinion on this was not very firm.
 
I'm really not getting the outrage over the idea that our black-ops expatriate killing of Pycelle being not squeaky clean legally.

I guess we could Trap the Soul him and keep the gem in a secure location until he is safe to release, but keeping him alive would be stupid. You don't get comfy cells for your enemies. You get rid of them.
 
I'm really not getting the outrage over the idea that our black-ops expatriate killing of Pycelle being not squeaky clean legally.

I guess we could Trap the Soul him and keep the gem in a secure location until he is safe to release, but keeping him alive would be stupid. You don't get comfy cells for your enemies. You get rid of them.
If we're not killing him outright, we should just bottle him. It's secure, indefinite, and cheap. No muss, no fuss.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Feb 4, 2019 at 5:48 AM
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Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Feb 4, 2019 at 5:49 AM, finished with 244 posts and 3 votes.

  • [X] Westeros Intel 4.0
    -[X] Ask of great secrets among the Westerosi that Varys is aware of (like the "royal" children's true parentage, but it doesn't need to be of the same importance)
    -[X] Get a full update on everything he knows that's going on in King's Landing
    -[X] OFFER ASSISTANCE TO BLOODRAVEN
    --[X] Ask what Bloodraven has been up to.
    ---[X] To start, does he have any plans he'd like help on? We've already got two of his stronger assets -- Danar Crowl and Alyssa Grafton -- as permanent residents of Sorcerer's Deep. We can provide teleportation and firepower if the mission is important enough.
    ---[X] Ask for the names and locations of the various septons Bloodraven has been cultivating so that you can possibly plan for them later on.
    --[X] We are allies with the Shaitan and the Djinn now, so if there's ever a magic item that Bloodraven needs for his operations he can ask us so long as it's not cripplingly expensive (tens or even hundreds of thousands of IM is fine if the purpose is important enough, though a million would be too expensive)
    --[X] Ask if Bloodraven would like any more plant-creatures crafted to serve his purposes
    --[X] We will gladly work as a go-between if he wants to leverage our Westerosi allies, Doran, Brune, Monford and the Royces, for something. Or the Inquisition resources we are starting to build up.
    --[X] Ask him where he thinks Inquisition bases would be the most useful for our shared goals. Our current bucket list is Darry (friendly lord, major crossroad), Oldtown (focal point of various other factions), Whiteharbor (best connected area in the North), and the Dornish March (important crossroad in Reach, Stormlands and Dorne politics, giving us some insights in their movements and we want to be greatly entrenched there in preparation for the invasion). 2-3 bases in the Westerlands would be great. Crackclaw Point and Dragonstone would be other good targets, though mostly for invasion prep. Maybe Runestone if the intrigue attacks on the Royces keep up.
    -[X] THE FEY
    --[X] Ask what Bloodraven and Varys will be able to tell you of the various fey courts of Westeros. Which ones, like the one in the Riverlands, are reasonable? Which ones should we watch out for? Where are they located? What are each of them known for?
    --[X] Ask for everything Bloodraven and Varys will be able to tell you of the Court of Stars, including history, intel on their rulers, their enemies, etc.
    ---[X] If it is safe to do so, reveal the Crown of Flowers to Bloodraven, along with your plan to make the fey court swear fealty unto you if they wish to stay in Westeros as the price for the crown's return.
    ---[X] Ask whatever Bloodraven is able to tell you of Garth Greenhand and how he was able to win the Crown of Flowers from the Court of Stars
    ---[X] What can Bloodraven and Varys tell you of the operations of the Court of Stars? We'd rather not be caught off guard by another surprise visit from a mythic fey trying to retrieve treasure from our territory.
    -[X] THE DEEP ONES
    --[X] Ask where Varys and Bloodraven know they've been operating, who they've been fighting, who they've subverted, what their goals are perceived to be, etc.
    --[X] Update Bloodraven on your contact with the Lantern-Bearers and their new conflict with the Citadel
    --[X] Does Bloodraven or Varys know the locations of any relics or champions of the Deep Ones? The Sistermen, for example, concerningly are said to have webbed fingers.
    --[X] Update Bloodraven on the fact that Rodrick the Reader has unofficially sworn fealty to you and will be working with you against the Deep Ones
    -[X] THE OTHERS
    --[X] Ask if Bloodraven or Varys have managed to discover any nests of the Others or the Winterborn south of the Wall
    --[X] Ask if they know the locations of any relics or champions
    -[X] LOOT AND MAPS
    --[X] In short, any and all intel of Westeros which we would consider useful should be gathered here
    ---[X] Especially loot, tell us all about the loot we'd want to know about
    ----[X] How many Valyrian Dragon eggs in Westeros is Varys aware of, and where are they?
    ----[X] Does he know where the Royce ancestral Valyrian Steel blade is?
    --[X] Take your Map of Westeros, as well as the individual maps of each of the Seven Kingdoms (Map of the North, Map of the Vale, Map of the Riverlands, Map of the Stormlands, Map of the Westerlands, Map of the Iron Islands, Map of the Crownlands, Map of the Reach, Map of Dorne), and have Bloodraven scan through Varys' mind, then update the maps to include the locations of supernatural creatures that Varys is aware of, like fey courts, local monstrous humanoids, openings to the Underdark, lairs of Winterborn servants, etc., everything that Varys has heard about and kept track of, along with updating them with whatever intel Bloodraven may be willing to share.
    --[X] Ask Bloodraven to scan Varys' mind and make you a full Map of the Red Keep, complete with secret tunnels, hidden chambers, etc.
    --[X] Ask Bloodraven to make a Map of King's Landing using Varys' intelligence.
    ---[X] If he is worried about the information being divined, these particular maps will always be under our Mind Blank and will be stored in our cloak unless we're personally using them.
    --[X] Ask Bloodraven to update your Legendary Map of the Far North
    --[X] Can Bloodraven do us a favor and point us to the adamantine mine wherever it may be near Dyre Den? If we're told where it is we can tell Lord Brune where to start mining and help him diversify his income.
 
I'm really not getting the outrage over the idea that our black-ops expatriate killing of Pycelle being not squeaky clean legally.

I guess we could Trap the Soul him and keep the gem in a secure location until he is safe to release, but keeping him alive would be stupid. You don't get comfy cells for your enemies. You get rid of them.

It's a question of ethical qualms vs convenience. The whole deal with sacrificing sapient lifes to the Old Gods and later Yss to receive divine boons has long been one of the major ethical questions discussed in this quest. We've largely resolved this dilemma with a simple rule: Only people who willingly deal with the "enemies of mankind", that is to say devils, demons or the Deep Ones are sacrificied. Everybody else gets a mundane execution even if they're deserving of a death sentence. This wasn't just propaganda, this was how we justified human sacrifice to ourself and our friends in character. The only thing that's changed now is that this time, people aren't argueing for sacrificing Pycelle to get goodies out of it but in order to make sure no one can divine answers from his soul. Now this might be a slightly better argument, but in the end it' still the same question: What are our ethical guidelines worth to us? Do we sacrifice them for profit or convenience?

Personally, if we don't find any evidence of Pycelle dealing with devils, demons or deep ones, I'm stricly against sacrificing him to Yss. Keeping his mind frozen und unavailable for divination for a time seems fine to me however.
 
I'm really not getting the outrage over the idea that our black-ops expatriate killing of Pycelle being not squeaky clean legally.

I guess we could Trap the Soul him and keep the gem in a secure location until he is safe to release, but keeping him alive would be stupid. You don't get comfy cells for your enemies. You get rid of them.
I don't think there's much, if any, opposition to killing him.

Just the idea of killing him via sacrifice is opposed.
 
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