Just for the record, not one of our wards, Dany's playmates or other kids at home had any kind of "horrible mental scarring" because they saw Mereth and Leto out of disguise.

You are getting offended for the sake of getting offended.

Naw, I'm offended at the idea of using a three year old as part of a plot in such a way that is traumatic. Your dismissal of my stance as "he wants to feel self righteous" is... Erroneous. And wow. Highly efficient in inducing passion. I'd be impressed if it didn't involve me.

Like, have standards in your "using toddlers to achieve your aims and cause a psychotic break in their parents" plans, ya know ;).

Our wards were inoculated against "unplseant imagery" via education and being warned beforehand. This is an scary thing to cause a toddler that to have memories of, and perhaps I may have overstated the fiendish element, (hmm, maybe active link to hell is a factor? (This bit is me having fun, not making an argument. I enjoy the metaphysics of ASWAH)), by making a toddler remember being grabbed by a "monster" of some description and her life threatened is fucked up imo. *Shrugs* I mean, I'm not judging you based on that, I'm for using toddlers in plots provided they don't come to harm from it, but traumatising a toddler for a plot, one based purely on opportunism (and that is what this moment is, opportunity, we never planed planned for this), is likely to lead to Viserys Guilt(TM) and I don't want to just let that happen. Cuz it's not fun reading for me.

We all want to read a story, and this is where, I feel, our desires for where the tale goes, at least at this juncture, diverge.

All instances of the word "child" replaced with toddler, because I'm just in there kind of mood where I want to remind people, that the person some want to make remember being threatened by a monster is three.

Anyway, I spoke up against such. So w/e. I'll see how this goes.
That means that you can use the spell to refresh a memory. It's ambiguous if that can even be used to restore a modified one.

And again, you would need to carefully scan her mind for discrepancies. And the worst case? They restore her original memory of going into a room while chasing the cat and then falling asleep by a spell. Any further digging will run into the mindblank-brickwall.

We literally used that spell to undo the Modify Memory SLA of the devil that was maniuplating Joran. Or at least, that five minute instance that it could check.

Personally, I'd expect that "I just remembered about the attack a moment ago" would give reason to look deeper, but, w/e

Continues reading thread. Catches up. Yeah. I'm not going to engage here much anymore. Will further efforts to reduce sharing potential counterplan or points where bad luck can knife plans, and only add silly comments on rare occasion. @Azel you are shit to debate with, because you do it in bad faith, your unapologetic hipocracy is fucking exhausting, and, oh god, the sheer number of blind swings you make at (at various times, differing) segments of the thread but frankly, it has be fascinating to observe someone who is (very frequently) toxic in the manner in which they use arguments they use to push their position, but who also puts sincere and incredible effort into achieving what they hope for (an evil Viserys (proper evil, with a small e, and everything!)

And yes, the way you do so works. The arguments you lambasted thread for not making about Lys... I had some. And I had no energy to try and push them forward, because the thought of interacting with you. Just drained me. It was for that reason that I laughed when I read the line about why Viserys did not use "farce" to describe the war against Lys. I could have told you that. I was going to, and then when I though about interacting with you, all motivation to type left me. Hence humour.
But that does tend to engender negative feelings when a person is "called out" or whatever better term fits, by you, on not doing something that you, by your chosen behaviours have strongly disincentivised

Tldr: my own issues + negative behaviours mean that I will taking a break again.
 
Interlude CCCLXIX: To Raise Houses of Learning
To Raise Houses of Learning

Thirteenth Day of the Eighth Month 293 AC

Alinor Torchwood was not sure if she aught to praise or curse the flood of visitors pouring into Sorcerer's Deep and to a lesser extent the rest of the isles with the announcement of the King's Grand Festival, so of course being a practical daughter of Braavos she did both.

On the one hand her tasks for this month were aided in no small measure by all the scholars arriving in port to see the wonders of sorcery with their own eyes, but not all the visitors were so well-intentioned or so wise. A band of mercenaries, out of work from their previous occupation of being near-brigands in the Disputed Lands, had decided that the most sensible way to cover their shortfall was to steal a Builder's Harp from the legionnaires working on the roads and bridges. The singer's Legion escort was more than enough to 'see them off' and then see them to the hangman.

However, now the lieutenant who was in command of the guard for the new as yet unnamed university had asked for a double escort to ensure the safety of not only the harp but the other arcane tools used in the task, a laudable sentiment, but a troublesome one with most of the solders currently in the Deep more likely to be drinking, gambling, and trying out their luck in contests than on duty. The delay would cost them the deadline she had set to have the university accepting students by the month's end.

The Steward of the Deep was tempted to simply send a letter to her husband and arrange the matter by unofficial means, but she stayed her hand. This sort of demand required an institutional solution, one that could be applied just as well in the wilds of Sarnor, the court of some petty Westerosi lord without his letters, or in bloody Sothoryos as the colonists there struggled to cut back the jungle.

Establish Economic University in SD Progress: 19/20

At least building in that strange lightless place the Shadow Tower stood in had not proven as difficult as she had feared. Rather than having to construct new buildings in the cold void, the pech had helped shore up the upper stories of the broken tower, shaping dragonstone harvested from Naath and Fallen Valyria into an echo of what the tower had once looked. Before leaving on her journey, Headmistress Teana had insisted on keeping with the tower's style as much as possible, joking that 'few people know the pain of witnessing ill-fitting styles as a Volantene who had to look upon the Three Daughters'.

She had to agree with the sentiment, even though to Alinor's eyes Volantene style was more fitting for a mausoleum than any place where men were supposed to live in peace.

Shadow Tower expanded

Lost 7,000 IM


OOC: I know this is short, but I feel it's pretty self-contained even so, and it's late enough that I do not have the time to pair it with another mini-interlude to make it longer.
 
Last edited:
This sort of demand required an institutional solution, one that could be applied just as well in the wilds of Sarnor, the court of some petty Westerosi lord without his letters or in bloody Sothoryos as the colonists there struggled to cut back the jungle.
This is amazingly savage. Our upper administrative head thinks of the proud Westerosi nobility in the same sentence as the fucking savages?
:D

We're going to be having some great interludes when we integrate Westeros into the Empire, aren't we?
 
This:



That or applying it. Would be great. I'm out. Will be back when I'm back.

Well it looks like my instincts are unfortunately still good for this sort of thing. I am sorry to see you go and hope to see you back soon

For the rest of the thread, please do not take this as a sign to pick sides or escalate. I'd like to be able to wake up tomorrow without seeing more people upset over the discussion.

It's demotivating

Good night everyone, see you in the morning hopefully in better spirits.
 
ENTIRELY CORRECT!
@Azel, @Snowfire, BOW BEFORE THE ULTIMATE PLAN!

[X] STEAL THE ENTIRE FUCKING RED KEEP. CAST FORBIDDANCE TO KILL EVERYONE INSIDE, THEN USE SOTD TO REMOVE THE FOUNDATIONS AND SIMPLY CARRY IT AWAY (UNDER FULL BUFFS). REZZ THE CAT AND THE CHILD WHEN WE GET TO SD.

More seriously, this morality debate stems from exactly 1 post. Ugh.

And I'm half-expecting Azel to turn up quoting HPMOR next time he starts complaining about humans having emotions and not being 100% rational :'(

EDIT: To be clear, this is all a joke. Including the HPMOR stuff - please don't be offended Azel.
Hugs rating this post.
 
Well it looks like my instincts are unfortunately still good for this sort of thing. I am sorry to see you go and hope to see you back soon

For the rest of the thread, please do not take this as a sign to pick sides or escalate. I'd like to be able to wake up tomorrow without seeing more people upset over the discussion.

It's demotivating

Good night everyone, see you in the morning hopefully in better spirits.
We'll do our best, but it won't be good enough. Night DP.
 
Huh I was just wondering. Is there any reason we can't skip the middleman and just implant the a memory in Cersei? We know that she has no Ladies in waiting so she won't be surrounded by people at all times in the day. Is the only reason we have to use Myrcella because she's a toddler and thereby less dependable as a witness to use to call Stannis a traitor?
 
The offer remains if you change your mind once you have calmed down.

I am genuinely interested what exactly got you so up in arms right now, because I don't get it.
Without wanting to dog pile on you given the little kerfuffle happening right now, I wanted to point out something. There's this... thing you do, and I don't think you are doing it intentionally, but you sort of play very very dirty as it regards moral arguments in one very specific way. Whenever anyone in the thread suggests we pump the breaks on doing something... let's say 'ruthless' you immediately dredge up anything even remotely questionable we've ever done, strip it of all nuance and context (and oftentimes some spirited behind the scenes debate about doing whatever it is at all), and throw it into the threads face along with some insinuations of hipocracy. This is compounded by said nuance and context often being things you argued for yourself. It can smack of 'I talked the thread into doing this thing, now I can use that to bludgeon any opposition if they try to stop me in the future.' For instance given previous trends it wouldn't surprise me at all to see you planning on... Oh I don't know, let's just say [questionable thing] in a month or two, and then going "The thread was willing to mess with the head of a literal toddler to strike out at our enemies but now [questionable thing phrased in the most innocuous possible way] is beyond the pale? Disgusting"
Now I don't believe that's your intention at all, but it can get grating.
 
At least building in that strange lightless place the Shadow Tower stood in had not proven as difficult as she had feared. Rather than having to construct new buildings in the cold void, the pech had helped shore up the upper stories of the broken tower, shaping dragonstone harvested from Naath and Fallen Valyria into an echo of what the tower had once looked. Before leaving on her journey, Headmistress Teana had insisted on keeping with the tower's style as much as possible, joking that 'few people know the pain of witnessing ill-fitting styles as a Volantene who had to look upon the Three Daughters'.

She had to agree with the sentiment, even though to Alinor's eyes Volantene style was more fitting for a mausoleum than any place where men were supposed to live in peace.

Scholarum expanded

At long last. I'd been waiting ages for this. :D
 
Huh I was just wondering. Is there any reason we can't skip the middleman and just implant the a memory in Cersei? We know that she has no Ladies in waiting so she won't be surrounded by people at all times in the day. Is the only reason we have to use Myrcella because she's a toddler and thereby less dependable as a witness to use to call Stannis a traitor?
Too complicated/involved. We were only taking advantage of the opportunity that presented itself.
 
Azel I like you, but you should really consider picking up a sense of empathy. Or failing that, tact.
The former apparently failed here because, again, I don't get what caused Snowfire to get so angry at me. Hence the offer for him to air his grievances in a private setting where he can both yell at me to his hearts content and where neither of us has a political stake (read: vote) to care about.

Look. If people have issues with me, it would be great if they just came forward and talked with me about them in private. As it is, it always ends up with a highly charged debate over a vote, which just results in shouting about the vote, not actually addressing the problem they have with me on a personal level.
 
Establish Economic University in SD Progress: 19/20
This literally has me in physical pain.
Alongside last few "almost done... SIKE, nope!"-actions it feels very unsatisfying to have to drop next turn's action on something as minor as 1-3 points of success...

*sigh*
no helping it, I suppose.

How good are we are on the front of space avaliable for study, now?
Will it hold, say, 1-1.5 thousand people studying at non-crossing periods, now?

*checks scholarum tab*
*doesn't understand shit*
@TalonofAnathrax, what's our expected numbers of students for scholarum with continued explosive grow/immigration/promise of power SD presents?
 
Last edited:
Well a suggestion from someone who knows nothing about dnd or how it works, can't we just turn the cat invisible and make an illusionary cat for the toddler to chase after? Or do we break our own invisibility in doing so?
 
[X] Plan Just A Humble Servant

I'm not looking forward to endangering this child this much for slim game.

Or tampering with her mind. That's why I'm not voting for it.

It's been 2? 3? Years. We're all familiar with each other's peculiarities.
 
Jesus, things get busy the last hour at work and the next thing I know I've missed five or six pages of posts.

I don't believe there is anything particularly reprehensible with @Azel's plan, though again, he didn't handle opposition to it all that well, either. @Azel, dude, morality has nothing to do with people's irrational protective instincts when it comes to children. It's a sensitive issue for some folks, and not one that requires any sort of justification. It's a hardwired response in most people. You would probably get more traction in this type of argument if you stopped playing the "morals/Good vs practicality" card whenever someone objects to a plan. I get it, the sudden bouts of second thoughts/regrets/scruples can be frustrating, but there are better ways to handle it.

Not sure if I missed the possibility being mentioned while skimming the last hundred or so posts, but we're assuming Myrcella hasn't already made contact with the entity imprisoned beneath the Red Keep. What if she's after Balerion because she plans to sacrifice him to her dark master? Or worse? We could be saving the poor feline's life.
 
This literally has me in physical pain.
Alongside last few "almost done... SIKE, nope!"-actions it feels very unsatisfying to have to drop next turn's action on something as minor as 1-3 points of success...

*sigh*
no helping it, I suppose.


How good are we are on the front of space avaliable for study, now?
Will it hold, say, 1-1.5 thousand people studying at non-crossing periods, now?

*checks scholarum tab*
*doesn't understand shit*
@TalonofAnathrax, what's our expected numbers of students for scholarum with continued explosive grow/immigration/promise of power SD presents?
@DragonParadox hasn't kept the student numbers consistent with the number of people listed as Instructors, so it's hard to say. Anything from 300 students and 300 aspirants to 1 200 students and 1 200 aspirants (if we actually let our Druid Creature Treants or Advanced Druid Leshy teach at some point! We never seem to!). Some of those will be in Tyrosh (which needs a Philosopher's Tree and good library, by the way! @Duesal, add that to the tree wishlist?), but most will be in SD.
 
I think the issue here is that Azel's argument is perfectly moral. It just uses a very logical, consistent set of ethical rules that not everyone will agree on, and does not include any of the moral "short-cuts" most people rely on.
Azel I like you, but you should really consider picking up a sense of empathy. Or failing that, tact.

The offer remains if you change your mind once you have calmed down.

I am genuinely interested what exactly got you so up in arms right now, because I don't get it.
This:



That or applying it. Would be great. I'm out. Will be back when I'm back.

Okay, so I just caught up with discussion.

I was going to rant for a bit about all of this, but none of it relates to the discussion in itself and has to do with individual perspectives and personalities.

To say the least, it is tiresome to persistently learn to engage with alternative moral and ethical constructs productively to get your opinion out there without being dismissed out of hand. The problem is I have learned compartmentalization of these things, so what I would vote for here is somewhat removed from what I would actually choose to do in reality.

I think what I'm trying to say is, trying to get something done that appeals to you personally because you subscribe to those same "moral/ethical shortcuts" (which most people do, on some level, and I feel like arguing on the basis that this is a flawed perspective is unproductive in the extreme) that someone picks apart because it is "inconsistent", isn't wrong, you should keep doing it, and as much as gets done by committee around here, unfortunately, if there are a significant number of people here who want to relate to Viserys, they will want him to also make some decisions that they would make because it holds personal appeal. To say nothing at all about ethics or morals, seeing as how some people here think that unilaterally ordering the deaths of thousands if they fail to meet certain standards or fall outside of the monkey sphere could just as easily appear in discussion as suggesting that this one child is special and innocent and doesn't deserve to be tormented in any way.

The onus is on you to appeal to those who would vote otherwise. Attempting to be subversive and imply that this opinion, which it in effect is, even if it bleeds through to the character, holds no appeal, can have the unfortunate side effect of saying that very large facets on a person's own persona hold no inherent value.

This can lead to hurt feelings due to lack of awareness that A) there are things that go said, especially with the lack of body language to make it clear a boundary might have been crossed, and B) there are untold things that go unsaid which can only be inferred based on what a person's picture of you as a person, saying something to them, is.

I'm not sure what to say about that "arguing in bad faith" because I don't want to leap ahead and imply everything that anyone has ever said was "arguing in bad faith", since from someone's perspective they might have meant it in complete earnest (but both @TalonofAnathrax and @Azel have utilized hyperbole or made assumptions and then acted surprised that it engendered even more negative responses before). So it's not as if everyone here is a debate exemplar who tries to remain superlatively objective about literally everything they post.
 
Last edited:
So it's not as if everyone here is a debate exemplar who tries to remain superlatively objective about literally everything they post.
I will fight to the death to defend my right to shitpost as needed!
And it won't stop me from trying to be a debate exemplar when needed. I'll fail sometimes, but I'll still try! And of course I try to make it clear when I'm shitposting.

To be clear: I'll fight you in some sort of online contest. And online death. If you want to actually fight a french person, walk into a Toulouse bakery and ask to buy a pain au chocolat or something :D
 
Last edited:
Back
Top