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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Snowfire said:
Nah, my main argument is 'the writers had no idea the complexities they were dealing with and therefore the spell is based on foundations that don't exist". Also that the spell is dumb.
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What are you talking about?
The spell doesn't say what principles it works on at all. It reads:
"The caster enters the mind of a creature, learning everything that creature knows. The caster can erase or add memories as she sees fit and alter emotions, opinions, and even alignment. When the caster is done, she can leave the creature insane (as described in the insanity spell) or seemingly unaffected, without any memory of the intrusion."

It can do the following, entirely separate things (all at once if needed):
  • learn everything you know
  • erase or add memories
  • alter emotions
  • alter opinions
  • alter alignment
  • leave the creature insane (as the spell)
  • leave the creature seemingly unaffected, without any memory of the intrusion
Nowhere does it say how this works. It implies that whatever process is used is immensely precise, flexible and skilled, but that's it. It doesn't even say that the caster has to know what they're doing, much like Heal doesn't ask for a medical degree.

It's completely overpowered (like a lot of level 9 spells - I still feel that this is less OP than Shapechange or Astral Projection), but it works just fine and has no "foundation issues" or whatever. All that is hand-waived and left unexplained. If you want to hate a game's mental systems, check out Call of Cthulhu and its approach to Sanity Points or something. Or complain about D&D Alignments.

EDIT: D&D is a high-fantasy game. We Raise the dead, create matter and energy from (presumably) nothing, and casually cast spells with a few words and hand gestures. How is that any better or worse than Mindrape?
 
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Snowfire said:
Two people with a broken arm have basicaly the same recovery profile. Two people with, say, chronic depression, can have very different recovery profiles.

That's the problem here, and why trying to equivocate Cure spells to them is flawed
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I have worked in a physiotherapeutical clinic for a year.

I can tell you, with certainty, that the recovery profile of complex injuries and some diseases (especially after a stroke) is extremly different between different people.

This is not remotly simple, even if it might look like that from the outside.

Edit: to clarify, I'm not an expert, this is just an impression from personal experience.

Edit2: sorry, Rehabilitation Clinic with a focus on Neurological and Orthopedic issues. Physiotherapie was merely the most used therapy, not actually in the name of the clinic.
 
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Here's my finalized rebuild for the Scholarium Sorcerers now that DP has given the go ahead for them to learn Lesser Dragon Shape.

Changes made to the original build include;
1) Alchemy has been removed in favor of maxing Bluff and Intimidate rather than halving each skill's maximum ranks. We have tons of Alchemists and pure combat Sorcerers don't really have any business spending time in an Alchemy lab.
2) Elemental Dart replaces Scorching Ray. It has a longer range, consistently higher potential damage, and gains a +2 bonus against Spell Resistance. It also serves as a decent source of Acid or Electricity damage in a pinch.
3) Cantrips have been changed slightly; Launch Item isn't needed because they're getting Launchers, so I replaced it with Spark, which isn't super useful but is very thematic.
4) Alter Self has been replaced by Lesser Dragon Shape. It's a minor combat buff, but more importantly, allows the Sorcerer to fly. To compensate, at 6th level they get a Greater Ribbon of Disguise.
5) At 6th level Expanded Arcana (Lesser Dragon Shape) gets retrained Expanded Arcana (Lesser Dragon Shape, Invisibility). That means they don't have to choose between Glitterdust and Invisibility, since they can have both.
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Scholarum Sorcerer:
1st Level:
  • Hit Dice: 1d4 + 1 (5 HP)
  • Attributes: STR 8, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 15
  • Feats: Precocious Apprentice (Elemental Dart), Fiery Burst, Bloodline of Fire, Draconic Heritage (Red), Draconic Power
  • Flaw: Noncombatant, Vulnerable
  • Skills: Bluff (4+2), Concentration (4+1), Diplomacy (4+2), Knowledge (Arcana) (4+1), Knowledge (the planes) (4+1), Spellcraft (4+1)
    • Continue purchasing maximum ranks in these skills at each level up.
  • Special: At 1st level, Fire spells are cast at 6th caster level, other spells are at 2nd caster level, and Cold spells cannot be cast (0 caster level). Fire spells benefit from a +1 DC to their saving throws.
  • Spells Known:
    • Cantrips: Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Message, Spark (5/day)
    • 1st Level: Kelgore's Firebolt, Nerveskitter (3+1/day)
    • 2nd Level: Elemental Dart (1+1/day)
  • Non-Human Scholarium Sorcerers:
    • Does not benefit from the Draconic Power feat (effective -1 caster level and -1 DC with Fire spells).
    • Take no ranks in the Bluff skill.
Advancement:
  • 2nd Level:
    • Learn the Light cantrip.
  • 3rd Level:
    • Learn Mage Armor spell.
    • Gain the Searing Spell and Versatile Spellcaster feats.
  • 4th Level:
    • Increase Charisma by +1.
    • Retrain the Precocious Apprentice feat into Expanded Arcana (Lesser Dragon Shape).
    • Retrain Kelgore's Firebolt into Lesser Orb of Fire.
    • Learn the Elemental Dart and Read Magic spells.
  • 5th:
    • Learn the Grease and Glitterdust spells.
  • 6th:
    • Gain the Expanded Arcana (Dispel Magic) feat.
    • Retrain Expanded Arcana (Lesser Dragon Shape) into Expanded Arcana (Invisibility, Lesser Dragon Shape).
    • Learn the Fireball and Detect Poison spells.
Scholarium Sorcerer: A Sorcerer may take substitution levels in Scholarum Sorcerer whenever they have been spending a significant amount of time studying in the Scholarum and are getting a Sorcerer level from levels one through six. It functions as a normal Sorcerer, but with the following adjustments.

Levels 1 thru 6: Skill Ranks (4 + Int) per level.

Level 1:
  • Rather than acquiring a Familiar, the Scholarium Sorcerer instead gains Awakened Blood: Draconic Heritage (Red) as a bonus feat.
  • Cooperative Study (Ex): A Scholarum Sorcerer with this ability has learned that the sharing of knowledge and research with his fellow sorcerers is crucial to the mastery of wild magic. The ability increases the bonus provided by any Aid Another actions made to help with the Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, or Use Magic Device skills. The total bonus is equal to his number of Scholarum Sorcerer substitution levels +2. Up to three additional sorcerers with this ability may aid a single character, each making their own Aid Another check, but the total bonus gained by the recipient may not exceed +10. If all spellcasters involved have this ability, choose one to be the recipient of the Cooperative Study.
Level 2:
  • Arcane Thesis (Pyromancy): The Scholarium Sorcerer benefits from a +2 Competence bonus on saves against Fire spells, abilities, and effects, and a +1 bonus to the saving throw DCs of their Fire spells. These bonuses double at level 6.
Level 3:
  • The Scholarium Sorcerer gains the Searing Spell Metamagic feat as a bonus feat. They can apply the Searing Spell effect to their Fire spells without increasing their casting time.
Level 6:
  • Restricted Magic: The Scholarium Sorcerer can no longer cast spells with the Cold descriptor and cannot use any item which mimics or casts Cold spells.
  • Fiery Metamagic: When the Scholarium Sorcerer applies any Metamagic effect to a Fire spell, its casting time is not increased.
  • After level 6, the Scholarum Sorcerer may continue gaining levels in Sorcerer as normal.

Lesser Dragon Shape
Transmutation (Polymorph)
Level: Sorcerer 2 (see text)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 minutes/level

You invigorate your Draconic blood with an infusion of Arcane power, allowing you to temporarily assume a small wyrmling form.

Your size changes to Small (+1 Size bonus to AC and Attack), you gain a Natural Armor bonus of +2, a flight speed of 60 with Average maneuverability, one Bite (1d6) and two Claw attacks (1d4), and Energy Resistance 10 (matching the energy type from your Draconic Heritage).

Special: To learn this spell you must be a Sorcerer with the Draconic Heritage feat, plus one additional Draconic feat.
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Goldfish said:
Here's my finalized rebuild for the Scholarium Sorcerers now that DP has given the go ahead for them to learn Lesser Dragon Shape.

Changes made to the original build include;


Scholarum Sorcerer:
1st Level:
  • Hit Dice: 1d4 + 1 (5 HP)
  • Attributes: STR 8, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 15
  • Feats: Precocious Apprentice (Elemental Dart), Fiery Burst, Bloodline of Fire, Draconic Heritage (Red), Draconic Power
  • Flaw: Noncombatant, Vulnerable
  • Skills: Bluff (4+2), Concentration (4+1), Intimidate (4+2), Knowledge (Arcana) (4+1), Knowledge (the planes) (4+1), Spellcraft (4+1)
    • Continue purchasing maximum ranks in these skills at each level up.
  • Special: At 1st level, Fire spells are cast at 6th caster level, other spells are at 2nd caster level, and Cold spells cannot be cast (0 caster level). Fire spells benefit from a +1 DC to their saving throws.
  • Spells Known:
    • Cantrips: Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Message, Spark (5/day)
    • 1st Level: Kelgore's Firebolt, Nerveskitter (3+1/day)
    • 2nd Level: Elemental Dart (1+1/day)
  • Non-Human Scholarium Sorcerers:
    • Does not benefit from the Draconic Power feat (effective -1 caster level and -1 DC with Fire spells).
    • Reduce ranks in Bluff and Intimidate by -2 at 1st level. At each level up, alternate between purchasing a rank in Bluff or Intimidate.
Advancement:
  • 2nd Level:
    • Learn the Light cantrip.
  • 3rd Level:
    • Learn Mage Armor spell.
    • Gain the Searing Spell and Versatile Spellcaster feats.
  • 4th Level:
    • Increase Charisma by +1.
    • Retrain the Precocious Apprentice feat into Expanded Arcana (Lesser Dragon Shape).
    • Retrain Kelgore's Firebolt into Lesser Orb of Fire.
    • Learn the Elemental Dart and Read Magic spells.
  • 5th:
    • Learn the Grease and Glitterdust spells.
  • 6th:
    • Gain the Expanded Arcana (Dispel Magic) feat.
    • Retrain Expanded Arcana (Lesser Dragon Shape) into Expanded Arcana (Invisibility, Lesser Dragon Shape).
    • Learn the Fireball and Detect Poison spells.
Scholarium Sorcerer: A Sorcerer may take substitution levels in Scholarum Sorcerer whenever they have been spending a significant amount of time studying in the Scholarum and are getting a Sorcerer level from levels one through six. It functions as a normal Sorcerer, but with the following adjustments.

Levels 1 thru 6: Skill Ranks (4 + Int) per level.

Level 1:
  • Rather than acquiring a Familiar, the Scholarium Sorcerer instead gains Awakened Blood: Draconic Heritage (Red) as a bonus feat.
  • Cooperative Study (Ex): A Scholarum Sorcerer with this ability has learned that the sharing of knowledge and research with his fellow sorcerers is crucial to the mastery of wild magic. The ability increases the bonus provided by any Aid Another actions made to help with the Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, or Use Magic Device skills. The total bonus is equal to his number of Scholarum Sorcerer substitution levels +2. Up to three additional sorcerers with this ability may aid a single character, each making their own Aid Another check, but the total bonus gained by the recipient may not exceed +10. If all spellcasters involved have this ability, choose one to be the recipient of the Cooperative Study.
Level 2:
  • Arcane Thesis (Pyromancy): The Scholarium Sorcerer benefits from a +2 Competence bonus on saves against Fire spells, abilities, and effects, and a +1 bonus to the saving throw DCs of their Fire spells. These bonuses double at level 6.
Level 3:
  • The Scholarium Sorcerer gains the Searing Spell Metamagic feat as a bonus feat. They can apply the Searing Spell effect to their Fire spells without increasing their casting time.
Level 6:
  • Restricted Magic: The Scholarium Sorcerer can no longer cast spells with the Cold descriptor and cannot use any item which mimics or casts Cold spells.
  • Fiery Metamagic: When the Scholarium Sorcerer applies any Metamagic effect to a Fire spell, its casting time is not increased.
  • After level 6, the Scholarum Sorcerer may continue gaining levels in Sorcerer as normal.
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I wish that you wouldn't remove Alchemy. It's a good out-of-combat thing. What happens to the poor magelings who came here for a steady job only to discover that we'll only train them to kill?
And on a personal level, our Empire will one day want peace and train a shit-ton of dragonseeds into Sorcerers. Let's not monofocus them too much please.
This feels shortsighted, a little cruel, and it also weakens them a lot by removing their ability to profit from downtime.

EDIT: Lesser Dragon Shape is also a strict downgrade from Alter Self: less combat utility, less stealth, and fewer movement options (no sign of Swim or Climb speeds for example).
Still, it's very thematic and our Sorcerers are already better than normal ones skill-wise so whatever, let's use it.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
I wish that you wouldn't remove Alchemy. It's a good out-of-combat thing. What happens to the poor magelings who came here for a steady job only to discover that we'll only train them to kill?
And on a personal level, our Empire will one day want peace and train a shit-ton of dragonseeds into Sorcerers. Let's not monofocus them too much please.
This feels shortsighted, a little cruel, and it also weakens them a lot by removing their ability to profit from downtime.

EDIT: Lesser Dragon Shape is also a strict downgrade from Alter Self: less combat utility, less stealth, and fewer movement options (no sign of Swim or Climb speeds for example).
Still, it's very thematic and our Sorcerers are already better than normal ones skill-wise so whatever, let's use it.
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Most of our Scholarium mages have Alchemy as a skill. Let them be Alchemists in their retirement or during peace time. Sorcerers, normal ones at least, don't get to be good at a lot of things, especially at low level. I'd rather them be mono-focused so that at least the one thing they're good at, they're really good at.

There will never not be a need for combat-focused mages in the Imperium. There are monsters to fight, bandits to capture, hostile extraplanar empires to defend against and/or pacify, etc.

A Scholarium Sorcerer is also a great asset to any small unit, such as a team of Inquisition agents, guards tasked to watch over an important person or location, etc. PoSK further expand their utility; a 900 IM PoSK of Magic Circle Against Evil would allow them to protect a large group of soldiers or agents, for example.

Lesser Dragon Shape gives them good mobility in the form of a decent duration flight option, makes them moderately tougher, and like you said, it's super thematic. We can give them Greater Ribbons of Disguise at 6th level to allow them to make full use of Alter Self.
 
@Goldfish, I strongly object to this build. You want to teach them to lie, threaten and murder and little else.

Either drop Intimidate alltogether or halve it and pull a point from Arcana and Planes to max Alchemy.

Talon is right. The social impact of these people would be horrible as you stated them.
 
Goldfish said:
Most of our Scholarium mages have Alchemy as a skill. Let them be Alchemists in their retirement or during peace time. Sorcerers, normal ones at least, don't get to be good at a lot of things, especially at low level. I'd rather them be mono-focused so that at least the one thing they're good at, they're really good at.

There will never not be a need for combat-focused mages in the Imperium. There are monsters to fight, bandits to capture, hostile extraplanar empires to defend against and/or pacify, etc.

A Scholarium Sorcerer is also a great asset to any small unit, such as a team of Inquisition agents, guards tasked to watch over an important person or location, etc. PoSK further expand their utility; a 900 IM PoSK of Magic Circle Against Evil would allow them to protect a large group of soldiers or agents, for example.

Lesser Dragon Shape gives them good mobility in the form of a decent duration flight option, makes them moderately tougher, and like you said, it's super thematic. We can give them Greater Ribbons of Disguise at 6th level to allow them to make full use of Alter Self.
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I would still prefer to, say, not take Intimidate and instead take Alchemy.
 
@Goldfish, just dropping my vote for Talon and Azel here.
I don't think Intimidation is that necessary for them, and Alchemy is a generally useful skill.
 
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I'm going side with @Snowfire on the mindrape debate. I also dislike the spell for narrative reasons for the same reason I dislike Heart's Ease fixing any and all mental problems.

Anyway vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by Azel on Jan 18, 2019 at 7:19 AM, finished with 257 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X] Plan Generosity and Trolling
    -[X] "Wise words. Likewise, it would be foolish of me to judge you by the actions of those preachers with less pure intentions, or to turn away a helping hand in these troubled times. Let it be known then that the Faith of the Seven now truly joins the creeds preached in my realm." // Making it clear here that the Seven are one of many.
    -[X] Give him 20,000 IM in funds and the support of the Bulabar to erect a great sept between the Minotaur Village and the library. // This shunts the Sept to the outskirts of SD and into a less prestigious locale then the two Godswoods in the inner ring. Also encourages growth to the west to integrate the Minotaur Village into SD to become the Minotaur District.
    -[X] Also rope in Azema to help the effort. She knew Hugor of the Hill after all and has a great sense for aesthetics.
    -[X] Viserys will also help the design work for the Sept, drawing inspiration but seeking to surpass the Great Sept of Baelor, while using the neo-valyrian building style that is developing in SD.
    --[X] The base layout will be 7 sided polygon as usual for a sept, with a small, 7 sided tower erected a few meters away from the corners.
    --[X] The outlying towers will be connected by arches to the main building and by a colonnade to each other.
    --[X] On the top of each tower stands a statue of one of the seven, with the tower and the wall on the opposite side of the building being dedicated to the same aspect. The outside of the towers is adorned with murals depicting the virtues associated with the aspect from carved marble and highlighted in metal. Both the statue and the mural highlights are done in a metal alloy that has the color matching the given aspect.
    --[X] There is an entrance on each of the seven sides of the main building, with a statue of the aspect to which the side is dedicated rising above the entrance, using the same metal alloys as outside and surrounded by large windows of stained glass, though the actual material used will be transmuted and colored quartz.
    --[X] In the corners will be smaller statues above shrines used for religious ceremonies.
    --[X] Lastly, the floor will have a mural depicting the seven aspects moving towards the middle, where a seven pointed star in colored metal is inlaid.
    --[X] Give the art a subtle nudge towards the 'local', such as making soldiers look distinctly like Legionaries, include a few depictions of the special population groups of SD, etc. and make sure that there are some favorable depictions of magic in them.
    -[X] As other faiths in the realm have been permitted to maintain a ceremonial guard to protect their premises and for ritual purposes, the Faith of the Seven will be granted the same right. They can maintain a Sept Guard of 7 knights of good character and standing. There will be no restrictions on marriage or similar as with similar organisations in Westeros.
    -[X] Prepare to forge VS weapons for each of the major faiths in the realm as a sign of legitimacy and favor, to be handed over during the festival to the faiths. Each blade has it's name engraved in Valyrian writing.
    --[X] 7 Greatwords for the Sept Guard, designed with the aspect they represent in mind:
    ---[X] Mother's Blade: Mercy
    ---[X] Father's Blade: Justice
    ---[X] Smith's Blade: Ingenuity
    ---[X] Maiden's Blade: Innocence
    ---[X] Warrior Blade: Valour
    ---[X] Crone's Blade: Wisdom
    ---[X] Stranger's Blade: Mystery
    --[X] A greatsword loosely inspired by the descriptions of Lightbringer for the Red Faith, called Brightflame.
    --[X] A spear for Breathtaker, depicting scenes of the see and the friendly Nereid we often talked to on the shaft, named Swiftness.
    --[X] A weapon for Yss.
    --[X] A weapon for the Old Gods, probably to be wielded by the Minotaur Oracle.
    --[X] A weapon for the Moonsingers.
    --[X] Nothing for Trios, as a subtle sign of it's illegitimacy.
    -[X] Also speak with the knight some more to build a rapport, get a read on his character and to see if he has some contacts that could be useful. Especially to other Septons who could help to legitimize the new Sept by helping in the blessing.
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DragonParadox said:
I'm fine with most of it just not persona rebuilding, I think you could do that but the result would be... gruesome.
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So we could do the "build a superficial personality to pass inspection, and then become a sleeper agent when a word is said"?
Or "Set things up so that when a word is heard, your memories are rewritten and you start thinking or forgetting things we preset at the time of casting"?
It's just the "you now become LG and our loyal ally" use that you're against?
 
Azel said:
@Goldfish, I strongly object to this build. You want to teach them to lie, threaten and murder and little else.

Either drop Intimidate alltogether or halve it and pull a point from Arcana and Planes to max Alchemy.

Talon is right. The social impact of these people would be horrible as you stated them.
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TalonofAnathrax said:
I would still prefer to, say, not take Intimidate and instead take Alchemy.
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Diplomacy isn't normally a class skill for Sorcerers. Can that be changed in the quest, @DragonParadox?

If so, do y'all mind if I change Intimidate to Diplomacy instead? If not, I'll replace it with Alchemy.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
So we could do the "build a superficial personality to pass inspection, and then become a sleeper agent when a word is said"?
Or "Set things up so that when a word is heard, your memories are rewritten and you start thinking or forgetting things we preset at the time of casting"?
It's just the "you now become LG and our loyal ally" use that you're against?
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Yes, though it should be used sparingly especially on people with a strong will, it could fail in unexpected ways

Snowfire said:
Would I be correct in saying that other uses of it may have unintended consequences?
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Yes, things like the mind of the subject fracturing into divergent personalities or persistent delusions that seem to have a mind of their own
 
Did that faith council thing take place already? If not then a interesting thing will happen there. Just the news and talks there from this will be great.
 
Artemis1992 said:
We went through most of our time in Braavos with just those skills and were very effective at substituting Diplomacy with them, just for the record.
We only rebuild Viserys to include actual ranks in Diplo somewhere in the mid levels.
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It's not about efficiency, but that I worey that these people would constantly clash with regular society.

Much like Viserys did in the beginning.
 
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