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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Snowfire said:
Oh yeah, and capital letter E Evil. Because changing someone like that is wrong.
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Ahhh yessss.

#Goodsplaining

:V

Edit: To be clear here, I don't disagree, but these arguments tend to devolve into ultimate toxicity in short order due to someone taking a moral stance.

You're honestly just lucky that @Artemis1992 isn't likely to feel personally slighted by vehemence alone.
 
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Tbh, the single path for classes available in the Scholarium is very very SoD breaking. Why do all our Archivists not have any scribe scroll? Do all our wizards need craft magic item at level 5?

I agree that having to be murder machines and nothing else is a crappy fate just because someone happened to be a sorcerer, but this is a result of the Scholarium not showing that level of granularity imo, due to this being a lot of work that rarely impacts play, at least not in a major fashion.

We could make a couple of variants, combat/production/social, but that would be a lot of work. What about calling our current class builds "most common" and say that it only applies for 40-50% of mages of that class?
Just an idea :).

Also, sorcerer skill points are painfully limited.

Also water is wet.

Edit: making diplomacy a class skill for Scholarium sorcerer variant seems reasonable to me. Maybe drop another skill or something?
 
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BeepSmile said:
Tbh, the single path for classes available in the Scholarium is very very SoD breaking. Why do all our Archivists not have any scribe scroll? Do all our wizards need craft magic item at level 5?

I agree that having to be murder machines and nothing else is a crappy fate just because someone happened to be a sorcerer, but this is a result of the Scholarium not showing that level of granularity imo, due to this being a lot of work that rarely impacts play, at least not in a major fashion.

We could make a couple of variants, combat/production/social, but that would be a lot of work. What about calling our current class builds "most common" and say that it only applies for 40-50% of mages of that class?
Just an idea :).

Also, sorcerer skill points are painfully limited.

Also water is wet.
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We're in the process of getting a version of Archivist with Scribe Scroll voted in. I imagine we'll be doing the same for other builds.

That said, I'd rather have a different flaw than Inattentive. That does not do good things for researchers. Maybe Fussy instead?
 
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BeepSmile said:
Tbh, the single path for classes available in the Scholarium is very very SoD breaking. Why do all our Archivists not have any scribe scroll? Do all our wizards need craft magic item at level 5?

I agree that having to be murder machines and nothing else is a crappy fate just because someone happened to be a sorcerer, but this is a result of the Scholarium not showing that level of granularity imo, due to this being a lot of work that rarely impacts play, at least not in a major fashion.

We could make a couple of variants, combat/production/social, but that would be a lot of work. What about calling our current class builds "most common" and say that it only applies for 40-50% of mages of that class?
Just an idea :).

Also, sorcerer skill points are painfully limited.

Also water is wet.
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The justification (besides off-screen everyone is special) is that we would personally desire to have a default array of options because it makes sense on a tactical level, and after they "graduate" they could theoretically steer towards any direction magically speaking that they want. They have the freedom and resources for it.

But the basis for the builds has two criteria it appears:

1) They must have a "non-combat" purpose to their build. This is a social and economic issue, mages should be able to contribute to the economy in ways outside of combat.
2) PCs can be as special snowflakes as they want, and NPCs can be special on their own time, but we're paying to educate them, so we're going to teach them the skills we find useful. It's not like they don't have opportunities to learn other skills, but we're not obligated to accommodate them and risk saturating ourselves in mages who can't actually perform the duties required of them.
 
Snowfire said:
I'd argue that it falls into the same issue. Not enough understanding on the part of the writers in regards to what's actually being done, and on a narrative level destroys too much in the way of interesting possibilities.

Oh, and also wrong.
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Except 'understanding' is a Dresden Files thing, and explicitly not a DnD thing. That why Viserys' Polymorph doesn't have any of the harmful effects of DF Polymorph. And he's used that on screen. Also why Viserys can heal brain damage and resurrect people who don't even have brains anymore, he just rebuilds them without knowing anything about how they work, any short comings are patched with magic because that's what it's for.

Just admit that you want to make mental issues arbitrarily harder to fix either for personal reasons or to facilitate a certain plot. We won't mind.
 
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Crake said:
Ahhh yessss.

#Goodsplaining

:V
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Really, man. Really? Let's be clear a moment. I think objective morality is a crapshoot. But from my own, subjective, point of view? Forcing someone to change, no matter how you do it, is wrong. There's a reason that one of the first rules of counselling is that the client has to want to change, on some level. Otherwise all you're doing is making more problems for them. There is evidence of this trend. And singling me out to snark at me about moralising when my primary argument had nothing to do with it is exactly the type of toxicity that I was trying to avoid in my explanations.

If I failed in doing so, I'm more than happy to apologise. But I don't deserve this passive-aggressive shit.
 
BeepSmile said:
Tbh, the single path for classes available in the Scholarium is very very SoD breaking. Why do all our Archivists not have any scribe scroll? Do all our wizards need craft magic item at level 5?

I agree that having to be murder machines and nothing else is a crappy fate just because someone happened to be a sorcerer, but this is a result of the Scholarium not showing that level of granularity imo, due to this being a lot of work that rarely impacts play, at least not in a major fashion.

We could make a couple of variants, combat/production/social, but that would be a lot of work. What about calling our current class builds "most common" and say that it only applies for 40-50% of mages of that class?
Just an idea :).

Also, sorcerer skill points are painfully limited.

Also water is wet.

Edit: making diplomacy a class skill for Scholarium sorcerer variant seems reasonable to me. Maybe drop another skill or something?
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My argument for focusing our Sorcerers on combat is that unlike classes which can prepare any spells they know in any combination they like, the limited spell selection, augmented by a few PoSK, means that a Sorcerer, especially a low level one, needs to pick one thing to be really good at if they want to shine. Ours are really good combat mages. That seems acceptable to me.

If we give them Diplomacy, too, they can also be diplomats, representatives of the Imperium in foreign locales, peacekeepers, etc.

And thankfully, our Scholarium Sorcerers get more skill points than the average Sorcerer.
 
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Duesal said:
We're in the process of getting a version of Archivist with Scribe Scroll voted in. I imagine we'll be doing the same for other builds.
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I mean, that can balloon massively. For bookeeping reasons, I am against that general direction of statting each build, but a link on the Scholarium page and a letter beside the number of that class and level might work, example:

Wizard:
Link to variant A
B
C
Level 1:
12 X Variant Combat
3 X Variant Crafting
5 X Variant Crafting B

Level 2:
...

I hate it already :p

Regardless, @DragonParadox did you have it that our statted Scholarium sheets were "the only path" or did you have it that the mages were we're finding their own paths and that the builds given were just examples of the most common?
 
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BeepSmile said:
I mean, that can balloon massively. For bookeeping reasons, I am against that general direction of statting each build, but a link on the Scholarium page and a letter beside the number of that class and level, example:

Wizard:
Link to variant A
B
C
Level 1:
12 X Variant Combat
3 X Variant Crafting
5 X Variant Crafting B

Level 2:
...

I hate it already :p

Regardless, @DragonParadox did you have it that our statted Scholarium sheets were "the only path" or did you have it that the mages were we're finding their own paths and that the builds given were just examples of the most common?
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The Scholarum sheet really isn't that big, I wouldn't worry too much over this.
 
BeepSmile said:
Tbh, the single path for classes available in the Scholarium is very very SoD breaking. Why do all our Archivists not have any scribe scroll? Do all our wizards need craft magic item at level 5?

I agree that having to be murder machines and nothing else is a crappy fate just because someone happened to be a sorcerer, but this is a result of the Scholarium not showing that level of granularity imo, due to this being a lot of work that rarely impacts play, at least not in a major fashion.

We could make a couple of variants, combat/production/social, but that would be a lot of work. What about calling our current class builds "most common" and say that it only applies for 40-50% of mages of that class?
Just an idea :).

Also, sorcerer skill points are painfully limited.

Also water is wet.

Edit: making diplomacy a class skill for Scholarium sorcerer variant seems reasonable to me. Maybe drop another skill or something?
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It's called having a curriculum. We try to teach specific things, and tailor our classes towards them. If you don't know them you, then you aren't graduating. That simple!

Of course not everyone learns everything the same, and the main differences are in Knowledge skills and such (where different people will roll high or low on different checks, and thus have learned different details, although common knowledge stuff (having lwoer DCs) will thus obviously be known to more people).
 
Goldfish said:
My argument for focusing our Sorcerers on combat is that unlike classes which can prepare any spells they know in any combination they like, the limited spell selection, augmented by a few PoSK, means that a Sorcerer, especially a low level one, needs to pick one thing to be really good at if they want to shine. Ours are really good combat mages. That seems acceptable to me.

If we give them Diplomacy, too, they can also be diplomats, representatives of the Imperium in foreign locales, peacekeepers, etc.

And thankfully, our Scholarium Sorcerers get more skill points than the average Sorcerer.
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I still think that Alchemy is good for them, and is better than Intimidate (or heck, even Bluff!). And Sorcerers not being trained Diplomats isn't a huge issue for me actually.
Order of priority for their builds, IMO:
  1. FIRE
  2. MORE FIRE
  3. Some defenses to go with all that fire
  4. Some Knowledge skills, Concentration
  5. Alchemy (turn downtime into power, make a steady living)
  6. Bluff/Intimidate, to smooth out special ops for those who take them
  7. Knowing rituals
Therefore I really don't want to drop Alchemy.
 
Snowfire said:
But I don't deserve this passive-aggressive shit.
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First of all, was sincerely joking, I'm amused by these arguments more than anything these days. I have no stakes in them anymore.

Second of all, don't take it personally, because I'm not going to apologize for a little sniping when on one subject you respond to snark in kind, but for a few "they are sacred ground" for some reason. It comes across as really holier-than-thou based on presumed superior knowledge or experience and won't earn you any points.
 
Goldfish said:
When I get home, I'm going to add every ritual they are capable of safely casting to the Scholarium Sorcerer character sheets I made yesterday.
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Please don't. I like having it abstracted. Otherwise we'll have to edit every character sheet pretty much every time we research a new ritual...
And all our Rituals count as Arcane spells, you know. That's a precondition for researching them. Therefore "being able to cast them" is mostly a question of skill ranks.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Please don't. I like having it abstracted. Otherwise we'll have to edit every character sheet pretty much every time we research a new ritual...
And all our Rituals count as Arcane spells, you know. That's a precondition for researching them. Therefore "being able to cast them" is mostly a question of skill ranks.
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That's all I was going to do, just add a list of rituals their skills allow them to cast.
 
So today class we are going to subvert a religion and turn it irrelevant and then we are going to another dimension to buy a piece of it? Any questions?
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
Any questions?
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Can we also do some (a lot) minor actions while off-plane?
:3

[X] Start the approval process for setting up the shrines of Yss in Ammun Khellisk and Opaline Vault.
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[X] When Visiting Ammun Khellisk for your business venrtures, visit the Air-weavers of Jinn and learn what they found within the Heart of Ice, given to them months ago.
-[X] Also spend some time to hire bards in Ammun Khellisk.
-[X] Also attempt to find more on elusive Gith, of whose enimity to Illithid you've been informed, yet you have little idea what people they are... and if they are worth the trouble of calling upon to deal with enemies on your plane.
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[X] When visiting Opaline Vault, take some time to learn what have Shaitan gotten out of the soul-gem we got them... And the prisoner of Efreeti tower we broke out for them.
-[X] In addition, also check with house Adjar if they have Silver Bell seeds now.
-[X] Try to find metal-clad template creatures.
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Azel said:
None, but we can bill 15% of the cost to other ACSEC shareholders. Or take up a proportional amount of stock due to increasing our deposit and emitting new shares in return to keep the share price stable.
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Why can't I rate something funny and informative at the same time? :(
 
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