I think that having a support network of dedicated personnel who answer directly to the Crown would be a good addition when we take over. And frankly, I think that over the centuries we should consider phasing out the Night's Watch. For multiple reasons.

1. The threat of the White Walkers affects the entire world, not just the North. As it stands its seen primarily as a 'Northern' problem. I believe that we should work to transform the Watch into a Knight's chapter and an official branch of the imperial military.

2. While the Watch's neutrality is working out for us now, I'm not entirely comfortable with an armed group that only technically answers to the crown being trusted with that much responsibility, with only the idea of their 'honour' keeping them in check.

3. The rules on membership of the Watch are, let's be honest ridiculous. No families, no sex. No matter how important the task, being unable to truly appreciate life, means you have no reason to sacrifice for it.
 
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Jeor would say yes, but he wouldn't like it. Remember how annoyed he was when Lord Stark reminded us of how often the Night's Watch had failed at their job in the past? It'll be another humiliation from us, here. Especially as there's no urgent crisis yet!
I think that's a bit incorrect. Jeor was ashamed at past failures, but he's also not too proud to accept help when he needs it. The Night's Watch definitely needs the help. That was actually what made Viserys want to loot Jeor.
And the men will hate it too.
The men are already superstitious idiots who hate us anyway in spite of the help we give them, so eh. Maybe if they switch to the Lannisters they'll see how much worse it'll be for them.
And we put in effort to hyping up the Night's Watch and their duties and vows in our post-tree speech, and now you want to undermine that?
Part of that speech was that the darkness is coming for all of us, and that the realms of men should unite against it. I don't see helping the Night's Watch as undermining this at all. Or was Xor fixing the Night's Watch and Valaena clearing out the Nightfort undermining them? Seriously, we shouldn't be holding back on helping them for fear of hurting their feelings. There are more important things to worry about.
No, I think that this is a waste of men (it's years too early to garrison people there. Our forces aren't infinite and we'll be conquering soon) and bad PR with the Night's Watch.

He needs help recruiting, not extra men given on loan.
I mainly meant magelings and PCs, not legionnaires. Just healers and strike teams to go wherever Jeor needs them for the month, if there's a tricky monster that his men can't take, that sort of thing. It's just like when we first came to the Night's Watch -- we were immediately asked to deal with a bear that the men were incapable of facing. That's what the stationed PCs are meant to be dealing with. And with the coming winter it's going to be more and more necessary.
So we do something to change this perception. Commission some plays and songs, print pamphlets, that sort of thing.
Seriously; you talk like public opinion is some sort of immutable constant of the universe, when it's everything but.

Not to mention that I think the impact on our image is overstated. We're anti-slavery, yes, but unless we somehow only punish crimes with death or fines, chances are that we'll have prisons and quite likely labor sentences, and the public seems reasonably fine with that.
There also doesn't seem to be any backlash against supporting the Watch with supplies, or against the Black Brothers themselves.
It's just terrible timing for us, dude. We're in the middle of conquering and consolidating Essos, it's not worth it to have this element of sort-of-slavery in our legal system when our stability is still shaky. Maybe after we'll be on solid ground and we can start doing it, but now we can't give the people any reason to doubt us.
 
I think that having a support network of dedicated personnel who answer directly to the Crown would be a good addition when we take over. And frankly, I think that over the centuries we should consider phasing out the Night's Watch. For multiple reasons.

1. The threat of the White Walkers affects the entire world, not just the North. As it stands its seen primarily as a 'Northern' problem. I believe that we should work to transform the Watch into a Knight's chapter and an official branch of the imperial military.

2. While the Watch's neutrality is working out for us now, I'm not entirely comfortable with an armed group that only technically answers to the crown being trusted with that much responsibility, with only the idea of their 'honour' keeping them in check.

3. The rules on membership of the Watch are, let's be honest ridiculous. No families, no sex. No matter how important the task, being unable to truly appreciate life, means you have no reason to sacrifice for it.
The Watch will probably be abolished after the winter anyway, we aren't planning on just pushing the Others back, we plan to push them back, and then go invade their realm and wipe them from existence, and no Others equal no need for the Watch.
 
The Watch will probably be abolished after the winter anyway, we aren't planning on just pushing the Others back, we plan to push them back, and then go invade their realm and wipe them from existence, and no Others equal no need for the Watch.

Hmm, considering the cyclic relationship between winter and the Old Gods, even though there's been no confirmation in character. I feel like as long one side is around the other will be as well. Plus, considering all the long-term wars we're already planning on fighting having a holding action on just one front might be necessary regarding the White Walkers once we get to that point.
 
Hmm, considering the cyclic relationship between winter and the Old Gods, even though there's been no confirmation in character. I feel like as long one side is around the other will be as well. Plus, considering all the long-term wars we're already planning on fighting having a holding action on just one front might be necessary regarding the White Walkers once we get to that point.
From what we have been able to learn, the old gods existed before the White Walkers became an independent faction, but with the coming of men and the lessening of the wild places, the cold-aligned parts of the old god hivemind grew angry, with time that wrath became hate, first for men and then for all that isn't winter, so the old gods are linked with the White Walkers, but it's a link of enemies, not a link of mutually dependent beings, the White Walkers aim to kill the old gods as well as everything else, and the old gods aim to kill the White Walkers, neither side has just managed to do so yet, but the old gods will certainly die if the White Walkers win, because if the White Walkers win then winter will rule eternally, and the Weirwoods will eventually all starve to death.
 
Vote closed. Sorry for the break. I had internet problems again.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 3, 2018 at 10:42 AM, finished with 251185 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] Plan Have A Meeting And Bring Something Against Ulcers
    -[X] Contact Jeor Mormont by Sending and request a very private meeting on short notice. If he feels there might be too many ears in his castles, a non-descript part of countryside would do fine.
    -[X] Take Ser Alliser along for the occasion so that he can report to Mormont.
    -[X] Offer Mormont three options on how to proceed from here:
    --[X] Option 1 - Clean Break
    ---[X] We break off all association and supply shipments to the Nights Watch to ensure that it remains neutral and is not dragged into our conflict with the Iron Throne.
    ---[X] One last shipment, which was meant to be dropped off in the coming days, can be rearranged to look like "a lucky find" during a ranging. That means we transport the Plant Wolves and the magic items we wanted to send north of the Wall, where Benjen Stark or some other trustworthy group of rangers can "find" them.
    ---[X] As nobody will believe that the Black Brothers who studied in the Deep are not somehow subverted, he declares them all traitors and deserters and they stay in the Deep.
    --[X] Option 2 - They Can't Prove A Thing
    ---[X] We switch over to more subtle supply methods. Between Red Scales Holding, the Iron Bank and the odd favor we can call in all over Essos, nobody will be able to figure out where these shipments and money are actually coming from.
    ---[X] The Black Brothers in the Deep will get very secret orders to take a ship and sail back to the Wall, stealing a lot of books, supplies, magic items and assorted things on their way out, risking their lives for the Watch as they battle the Evil Dragons minions and taking as much of his ill gotten possessions as they could. Magic items are a bit harder to smuggle, so he should err on the site of caution when making the list of what we pack in those crates for them to steal.
    ---[X] Warn him clearly that if this covered support becomes known, it would look like damning evidence of treason in the eyes of those who have already begun to smear the Night Watchs honor. Should this come to pass, we will give him any aid he requires to mitigate the damage, or no aid at all if that's what he thinks best.
    --[X] Option 3 - This Is Bullshit And We All Know It
    ---[X] We keep everything as it is and overtly support him. Additional food shipments are a given in this scenario. The Night Watch is neutral and thus free to accept aid from whoever gives it.
    ---[X] If Ned Stark needs reassurances, we will swear before the Old Gods that we are not planning to use the Night Watch for a war against the Seven Kingdoms, do not plan to station troops in their holdings to launch an attack on Westeros, did not and do not plan to infiltrate their ranks for our own ends or do anything else that would violate their neutrality in political affairs of Westeros.
    ---[X] This oath has one obvious loophole. We can and will do everything necessary to ensure that the Night Watch can perform their ancestral duty, including direct military aid against attacks. Should an army cross into The New Gift with the purpose of attacking the Night Watch, it will be obliterated. Should the Lannisters send spies and assassins to harm the Night Watch or it's members, they will be dealt with.
    -[X] Regardless of what he chooses is the best for his order, re-affirm that we will stand by him in the coming Long Night with all our might.
    -[X] It is tiresome to see that self-adsorbed idiots creating these messes because they can't conceive of a world that doesn't revolve around themselves, but we will do what is necessary to see no others but them suffer for it.
 
I agree with tarrangar here.

Once we are done with the Others we won't need a Nightwatch anymore.

I don't know if you plan on having any conventional battles, but I certainly plan to go into the heart of winter and beyond this World to truly end this threat, not delay it by a few thousand years.
 
I think that's a bit incorrect. Jeor was ashamed at past failures, but he's also not too proud to accept help when he needs it. The Night's Watch definitely needs the help. That was actually what made Viserys want to loot Jeor.
He'll accept it, but will he like it? No.
He has years yet. I'm certain he'd be far more enthusiastic about us helping him recruit somehow. Maybe spread plays about it in Essos (include Winter's threat or not?) and offer free transport there for those who want to join (for glory or for an escape from poverty)?
Whatever.

I mainly meant magelings and PCs, not legionnaires. Just healers and strike teams to go wherever Jeor needs them for the month, if there's a tricky monster that his men can't take, that sort of thing. It's just like when we first came to the Night's Watch -- we were immediately asked to deal with a bear that the men were incapable of facing. That's what the stationed PCs are meant to be dealing with. And with the coming winter it's going to be more and more necessary
Ah, that does make things better. Sending small numbers of nonhuman creatures will go through far better than sending in large groups of humans, IMO.
 
He'll accept it, but will he like it? No.
He has years yet. I'm certain he'd be far more enthusiastic about us helping him recruit somehow. Maybe spread plays about it in Essos (include Winter's threat or not?) and offer free transport there for those who want to join (for glory or for an escape from poverty)?
Whatever.
He has never, ever, shown any anger or shame at receiving help. What he showed shame at was the Night's Watch outright failing at their duties -- which was when Ned mentioned Wildlings managing to slip past the Wall and raid the North.

Also... that's not really an escape from poverty at all. That's giving up your entire life. It's the equivalent of people getting themselves sent to jail during the Great Depression so that they get daily meals. That is a mark of shame for us if people have to resort to that in the Imperium. Glory? Maybe, but very unlikely. The Night's Watch is not glorious, it's miserable. You're not going to convince people to join for glory unless you outright lie to them. If anything they'd join out of duty, and for that you're going to have to bank on hardcore R'hllorists joining up to fight the Great Other.

That's the trade we're faced with -- stick with helping them recruit Westerosi while we improve the stability in the Imperium, or let R'hllorists flood the Night's Watch.
 
Part MMCDLXX: Legacies True and False
Legacies True and False

Third Day of the Seventh Month 293 AC

You seek out Ser Alliser and somberly show him the letter. As you had expected the knight takes it about as poorly as could be imagined outside of drawing his sword against the Lannisters then and there, not that he does not reach for it. Still you offer him steadying words, for now is not the hour for the Butcher of Casterly Rock to fall, nor his the hand that will do the deed.

In secret and in silence the two of your travel north, to a place arranged in advance where a stone is buried with your mark, under the guarding limbs of sentinel pines and the eyes of ravens true and false. There you wait, speaking little, each grappling with your thoughts until the sound of hoofbeats marks the arrival of the Lord Commander, his face like a thundercloud. There is anger there, but worse still there is shame, shame that he would have to speak of aid to the Watch like a thief in the night.

"It pains me to meet under such circumstances after all you have done," the old warrior says plainly. Some men use tradition as a shield against all the evils they would work, as a curtain for their weaknesses, but for Jeor Mormont it is the soil in which he plants his feet that he cannot be moved by any power, nor swayed from his path.

Thus your answer is threefold, though forged with knowledge and forethought. You offer to step back for the good of the Night's Watch that their vigil not be plagued with the quarrels of the south. "Even so I would like to deliver one last shipment and then..." you offer a smile. "Good fortune often smiles on the virtuous. Who is to say by what manner you might find a map during a ranging?" More seriously you add, "It pains me to ask this, Ser Alliser, but in such a case you and those with you would likely be safer if you were proclaimed deserters for a time..."

The Crownlander knight turns white as a sheet, but still nods jerkily. "Honor is the oath you keep in your heart, not what fools might think of..."

"No!" Mormont half-shouts. "That I will not accept. The Watch is an honorable place and I will not see men sully their honor for the sake of Westerlander gold. If Tywin bloody Lannister asks for the heads of my brothers, then by the gods we will defend ourselves as every man has a right to."

"I will of course return if asked," Ser Alliser hasten to interject.

The Lord Commander waves the words away. "Of course you will, I never doubted it, but whatever the damn southerners think lordship binds both ways." He looks at you almost sheepishly. "Not to say you meant anything ill by the offer, but that is a road I cannot lead the Watch on."

You nod in turn in understanding, for in truth you had guessed the answer if not the full vehemence before you had even started speaking. "The second option open to us is also rooted in a measure of deception, though perhaps a more palatable one. We feign some manner of quarrel, perhaps theft of lore to use against the 'wicked dragon'."

The Lord Commander is obviously about to give another denial no less explosive than the last, but to both your surprise Ser Alliser laughs: "Your Grace, you give me and my bothers far too much credit, not only to supposedly steal those books, but then to somehow steal away from not one dragon but two on wooden ships. Though we may have learned magic we are not yet workers of miracles."

"The Lannisters would have no choice but to..." you begin.

However, the Old Bear interrupts one last time, a growl worthy of the name. "The Lannisters can shut the fuck up, and if they feel like arguing they can talk to Lord Stark."

"That was the third option I was going to propose," you say. "I hereby offer my solemn pledge that I have no intention of using the Night's Watch for a war against the Seven Kingdoms. Further, I do not plan to station troops in your holdings to launch an attack on Westeros, I do not plan to infiltrate your ranks for my own ends, nor do I do anything else that would violate their neutrality in political affairs of Westeros. This I will say again before a heart tree in the presence of Lord Stark if need be."

"From the letter I got back from him I don't think there will be any need." He hesitates a long moment. "I don't think Lord Stark is at ease in your presence, however much he might appreciate your commitment to protect the Seven Kingdoms."

You have to struggle a moment not to look as vindicated as Ser Alliser at the words. Instead you continue in the same soft but firm manner: "There is one exception to that oath, obvious perhaps but I will say it aloud here in the light of day. If an army crosses the New Gift to make war upon the Watch, then I will oppose it with all the power I possess."

"He wouldn't..." the Lord Commander says, aghast.

"Just as no man would order the rape of a princess of the blood and the murder of her children, and brazenly protect their murderers," you answer bitterly. "I dearly hope that you are right, but I refuse to count upon the honor of the Butcher of Casterly Rock in any matter, much less one as grave as this."

After that there is little else to say, you explain that you would be sending not only more supplies but spirit wolves blessed by the Old Gods to help in the protection of the Wall, and then you wish the Old Bear good luck in his vigil.

It is only when the last of the hoofbeats fade into the distance that Ser Alliser speaks again and for good reason. "After all you've done for the Watch you could lead the brothers to siege King's Landing and not one man in ten would refuse you."

You smile wearily, taking the compliment in the spirit it was given. "Perhaps, but I have no desire to break great and precious things for my own ends. There are enough unworthy ones out there that need breaking." Like the Citadel, the thought is unbidden, but timely just the same.

***​

News from Crackclaw Point is good with Kira having stoked the flames of rebellion in the hearts of Pointsmen as high as she dared without risking a spontaneous uprising, which the golden-haired incarnate admits was closer than she might have liked at some points. "People are a lot more excitable thereabouts than you would think to look at their long faces and grim brows. I even had to convince one girl not to try and seduce one of Lord Brune's sons for the sake of 'placing the true king on the throne'." She pauses a moment in amused contemplation. "I think she might have wanted to get out of gutting fish for the rest of her life, too."

"A ringing endorsement if ever I heard one," you snort. "What of the old lord himself and his treacherous maester? Has there been any word of the conspirators?"

"Nothing overt so far, though from what the traitor said his 'friends' might be growing suspicious over the lord's continued good health. Truth be told I would not trust the man to lie well even if he weren't acting against his own will. It might be time to see an end to him. Maybe as some sort of 'divine retribution' from the Seven, something bright and obvious like a burning brand coming down from on high..."

"You really don't like them, do you?" You ask, a touch surprised. Of course there would be no reason for Kira to think kindly of the Seven, but hers sounds like a personal animosity now.

"They are responsible for a holy text that promotes obedience even to tyrants in the hope of future salvation. They stood by while fools and scoundrels were knighted in their name, and then when all the world shakes with the return of sorcery their solution is seemingly to kidnap children to indoctrinate them into obedient self-loathing. Fuck the Seven, at least R'hllor is honest about wanting slaves."

What do you do next?

[] Deal with the situation in Dire Den
-[] Write in

[] Cover remaining minor actions
-[] Write in

[] Write in


OOC: There was a small chance Mormont would take some of your more underhanded offers badly, but you rolled more than well enough to avoid that so he took everything in the spirit it was intended.
 
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I don't know if you plan on having any conventional battles, but I certainly plan to go into the heart of winter and beyond this World to truly end this threat, not delay it by a few thousand years.
Sure, who doesn't? It might just not be possible. Or require something like rewriting the pact primeval (like sundering a conceptual link between the Others and OG/existence).
 
Also... that's not really an escape from poverty at all. That's giving up your entire life. It's the equivalent of people getting themselves sent to jail during the Great Depression so that they get daily meals. That is a mark of shame for us if people have to resort to that in the Imperium. Glory? Maybe, but very unlikely. The Night's Watch is not glorious, it's miserable. You're not going to convince people to join for glory unless you outright lie to them. If anything they'd join out of duty, and for that you're going to have to bank on hardcore R'hllorists joining up to fight the Great Other.
Even today, the US infantry mainly recruits among the poor. They straight-out complain that recruiting becomes too difficult when the economy does well. This works even in wartime.
Why can't we do that for the Night's Watch? Hype them a lot with tales of glory and defending mankind, get a bunch of gullible Essosi to sign up. Give Jeor some translators and let him deal with this shit.

Or so some recruiting in Westeros! Tales of Glory, ect.
 
Even today, the US infantry mainly recruits among the poor. They straight-out complain that recruiting becomes too difficult when the economy does well. This works even in wartime.
Why can't we do that for the Night's Watch? Hype them a lot with tales of glory and defending mankind, get a bunch of gullible Essosi to sign up. Give Jeor some translators and let him deal with this shit.

Or so some recruiting in Westeros! Tales of Glory, ect.
It's for life. And if it's not for life for these recruits, you've got two classes of Night Watch - the lifers and the part-timers.
 
"I hereby offer my solemn pledge that I have no intention of suing the Night Watch for a war against the Seven Kingdoms.
This is an amazing typo.
Malarys and Viserys, conquering the Seven Kingdoms by the power of rules-lawyering! Will King Stannis be defeated by his own laws?

I even had to convince one girl now to try and seduce one of lord Brune's sons for the sake of 'placing the true king on the throne'.
Another amazing typo. Damn, this is clearly the best Arcanum. She hates the Seven and she does Glyra-style crazy plots? Perfection.

It's for life. And if it's not for life for these recruits, you've got two classes of Night Watch - the lifers and the part-timers.
Good point.
But people do join the Catholic Church or nunneries (I know several examples in Ireland) because they felt that their chances in life were too low (typically they dropped out of school early, have a criminal record...) and they wanted a structured lifelong commitment and a sense of purpose. These aren't people with huge faith, mind - just people who think that the work for the community has purpose and who don't want to struggle to make ends meet their whole lives.
EDIT: This is quite uncommon, but it does happen. I know of it because I'm related to a number of Irish nuns and priests and I've spoken to them about it. But considering the size of the watch relative to the size of our realm a "it's quite uncommon but it does happen" scenario would be a huge deal for them!
 
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If ending the Others takes ending the Old Gods I wouldn't be oppose to that.
I doubt it do so, the old gods existed before the Others, that should mean that at minimum the Others can be utterly neutralized, although there's a chance that would involve sacrificing them to the old gods, so they can remake them as the non-corrupted winter spirits they used to be.
That depends on the result of that action. For example, if it meant life ends on the prime material ...
That's extremely unlikely, there was life before the Others in the prime material, that should mean there can be life after the Others.
 
TBH while it is harder to convince people moving to the New Gift would be a good idea, convincing a dirt poor person with zero prospects that you will subsidize a resettlement, including tooling a homestead/farm for them, gifting supplies, seed stock, even some animals, and guaranteeing those things to anyone so long as they intend to move their family/build a family there, you would definitely get some takers. And a main complaint is that getting the Watch to source supplies locally by getting the (underutilized) Gift and New Gift repopulated is not really feasible, since no one really lives there in great numbers, and with only a single large organized settlement, likely with hamlets/homesteads more scattered (and poor).

Edit: Of course it's not easy to run around talking to people to get them to do so. Doing direct management of populations by putting people on some ships from King's Landing and having 10-20K people from Fleabottom moved there would be much simpler to the point of abstraction.
 
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TBH while it is harder to convince people moving to the New Gift would be a good idea, convincing a dirt poor person with zero prospects that you will subsidize a resettlement, including tooling a homestead/farm for them, gifting supplies, seed stock, even some animals, and guaranteeing those things to anyone so long as they intend to move their family/build a family there, you would definitely get some takers. And a main complaint is that getting the Watch to source supplies locally by getting the (underutilized) Gift and New Gift repopulated is not really feasible, since no one really lives there in great numbers, and with only a single large organized settlement, likely with hamlets/homesteads more scattered (and poor).
We can probably combine that with that action I want to take, to supply all our farmers with steel tools, because once all our farmers have steel tools, they will each be able to farm more land, and that mean some of them have to be resettled anyway, and if we offer some extra incentives, we can probably get some of them to go farm in the Gift and New Gift.
 
Just to be clear: I don't believe that a recruiting effort would lead to tens of thousands of volunteers. But right now the Watch numbers about 3000 men, right? And we'll be conquering cities with millions of inhabitants? Surely we can get a few thousand out of all that!
 
Edit: Of course it's not easy to run around talking to people to get them to do so. Doing direct management of populations by putting people on some ships from King's Landing and having 10-20K people from Fleabottom moved there would be much simpler to the point of abstraction.
How were our chances to get settlers from north of the Wall?
Ah, Kira, you're an Arcanum after my own heart.
... heart?
 
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So we do something to change this perception. Commission some plays and songs, print pamphlets, that sort of thing.
Seriously; you talk like public opinion is some sort of immutable constant of the universe, when it's everything but.

Not to mention that I think the impact on our image is overstated. We're anti-slavery, yes, but unless we somehow only punish crimes with death or fines, chances are that we'll have prisons and quite likely labor sentences, and the public seems reasonably fine with that.
There also doesn't seem to be any backlash against supporting the Watch with supplies, or against the Black Brothers themselves.

We literally do not have prisons or prison labour at this point in time. It was decided that it was too expensive to just support people financially while they sit in a giant stone box for an extended time out and compelling them to labour so that they support themselves was deemed too much like slavery. We also don't have judicial torture like caning, mutilation, or flogging since those were deemed barbaric.

The only punishments that we currently have are: fines, exile, execution, and blood sacrifice.
 
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