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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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ryuan said:
This is what I wanted to know.

The basic idea for humbling would involve laying out all the hypocrisy of the Seven, from the lies they spread about sorcery and the nature of the Old Gods, the treachery when they arrived on Westeros, the murder they perpetrated during the conquest, the desecration of holy sites of the Old Gods faith, the betrayal of the First Men who converted to Seven worship and how many of them were forced to convert at sword point.

After the population is properly shamed we would perform mass sacrifices in honor of the Old Gods, hence sacrificing animals for the most part, to ask for forgiveness of the Seven transgression. Later we would institute holidays with similar sacrifices that are communal in nature, extra points if we have Green Men that were former Clerics or Paladins of the Seven performing the sacrifices.

Basically give the Seven a gigantic middle finger as a large chunk of the population engages in open apostasy and the Seven can't do much about it least they lose the last bastion of their faith in the world.
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That's way way over the top, the old gods only need us to tear down a few temples and sacrifice a few champions, preferably to grow Weirwoods in said temples, what you are describing is basically making them our eternal enemies.

DP has told us what we need to do, we need to end a few lines including the Arryn's, and we need to do something public, such as planting a Weirwood in the great sept, watered by the blood of the high septon and the most devout, this is enough to punish them, without making them hate us more than they hate even infernal forces, your plan is basically making it so the seven will contemplate any chance to kill us, even if it cost them their lives too.

The seven is a small problem compared to actually evil gods, they suck and don't deserve the name of good gods yes, but compared to gods such as Drowny, Tiamat, R'hllor and all the other actual evil gods, they are not so bad.

The humbling is supposed to be something embarrassing and irritating to the seven, it's not supposed to be breaking their powerbase, and making them swear vengeance on the house of Targaryan for all eternity, if we went as far as you proposed we might as well finish them, because there sure as hell would be no chance, for the peace lasting past them seeing any chance for revenge, we need to humble them without making them as filled with rage as the old gods are, otherwise somewhere down the line, someone will champion the seven like we do the old gods, and grant them their long awaited vengeance against the old gods.
 
I want to kill the Seven.

Having one of their paladins--Brienne or no--ask us to sacrifice our magic and pray to the Seven for miracles has personally offended me. Killing them and taking their divine artifacts is now a personal mission.
 
tarrangar said:
That's way way over the top, the old gods only need us to tear down a few temples and sacrifice a few champions, preferably to grow Weirwoods in said temples, what you are describing is basically making them our eternal enemies.

DP has told us what we need to do, we need to end a few lines including the Arryn's, and we need to do something public, such as planting a Weirwood in the great sept, watered by the blood of the high septon and the most devout, this is enough to punish them, without making them hate us more than they hate even infernal forces, your plan is basically making it so the seven will contemplate any chance to kill us, even if it cost them their lives too.

The seven is a small problem compared to actually evil gods, they suck and don't deserve the name of good gods yes, but compared to gods such as Drowny, Tiamat, R'hllor and all the other actual evil gods, they are not so bad.

The humbling is supposed to be something embarrassing and irritating to the seven, it's not supposed to be breaking their powerbase, and making them swear vengeance on the house of Targaryan for all eternity, if we went as far as you proposed we might as well finish them, because there sure as hell would be no chance, for the peace lasting past them seeing any chance for revenge, we need to humble them without making them as filled with rage as the old gods are, otherwise somewhere down the line, someone will champion the seven like we do the old gods, and grant them their long awaited vengeance against the old gods.
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You have to understand that if we are Old Gods faith or support them at least and most of our future followers are Faith of the Seven, therefore, it is a certainty that the faith will continue to discredit us. Not to mention the fact that the Seven that are One basically asked that we give up all magic except theirs. You think they are going to accept someone who is in their eyes a heretic ruling over their devotees? Especially after we humiliated them? If there will be one difference between us and the Seven that are One is that unlike them we will finish what we started.
 
Don't be like Canon!Dany and leave powerful, influential enemies alive and at your back. Destroy them utterly, or don't do anything to make them look at you twice in the first place.

Given our ambitions, the latter was never in the cards.
 
Duesal said:
I want to kill the Seven.

Having one of their paladins--Brienne or no--ask us to sacrifice our magic and pray to the Seven for miracles has personally offended me. Killing them and taking their divine artifacts is now a personal mission.
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Well, if there's any thing I'd rather put on a backburner, then this is it.
Lets' first deal with Tiamath, Zherys, Burny, Drowned Ass, Devils, Demons, Others, Black Goat, Fey, "Whatever's_in_Underdark", "Whetever's_with_yi-ti" and an unspecified number of extraplanar threats first, mmkay?
I'm pretty sure that once we are a supreme emperor of Planetos they'll learn to at least deal with us being a necessary thing to prevent even worse shit coming up and shanking their followers/them.
Sure, they'll be fucking us up in every way imaginable all the way, while being extreme assholes about it, but at least they're not "any of things mentioned above, which are objectively worse that 7-assed Voltrone-godling"
 
egoo said:
Well, if there's any thing I'd rather put on a backburner, then this is it.
Lets' first deal with Tiamath, Zherys, Burny, Drowned Ass, Devils, Demons, Others, Black Goat, Fey, "Whatever's_in_Underdark", "Whetever's_with_yi-ti" and an unspecified number of extraplanar threats first, mmkay?
I'm pretty sure that once we are a supreme emperor of Planetos they'll learn to at least deal with us being a necessary thing to prevent even worse shit coming up and shanking their followers/them.
Sure, they'll be fucking us up in every way imaginable all the way, while being extreme assholes about it, but at least they're not "any of things mentioned above, which are objectively worse that 7-assed Voltrone-godling"
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Nah, I'm pretty sure the Seven will do their level best to exterminate us well before we get around to killing those other threats. They've already got the Cleric of the Father whose divine mission is to find and train mages as clerics for the sole purpose of seeing us dead.

Once we manage to take Brienne from them (and maybe the Cleric of the Maiden, though personally I don't see that one happening), then that's a green light.
 
Duesal said:
Meh. If our Phantom Steeds are good for 760 miles then we can pretty easily send the guide back on his own. If he's nervous about running into anything while alone he can just ride on the sea right on the shallows so things from the Deep don't snatch him and things from the Mainland don't get him, and go all the way until he sees Eastwatch. If teleporting was possible we'd do that, but Builder's Anchor.
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Or fly.

das_slash said:
[X] Duesal
can we try to loot the giants? gathering in one place is just asking to be looted.
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For a heartbeat I thought you wanted their stuff ... until it clicked.
 
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On the subject of the Seven, I feel as though what Bloodraven asked us to do and what the thread wants to do are very different things.

Bloodraven asked us to humble the Seven, basically give them a bloody nose (destroy a few temples, kill a few champions, etc.)
This will sate most of the Old Gods, and they will lose their rampant murderboner.

What I've seen espoused in thread is straight up killing them all, which I'm not sure is even possible for Gods that are actively worshiped unless you start bringing in some Beyond Epic Level Bullshittery(tm), and at that point you're basically a God yourself.

The only other way to do so would be to try and force them into irrelevancy, like the Andals attempted, and almost succeeded in doing, to the Old Gods in Westeros. This also seems like a bad idea, because history has a tendency to repeat itself, and I would eat my hat if someone didn't end up making a pact with the Seven to humble the Targaryens and the Old Gods in the future.

Also, considering that the Andal Invasion happened before the Doom, there were probably some pretty high level opponents on either side, and I wouldn't be surprised if Epic Level Druids and Paladins were duking it out during the invasion, with far more power than we can muster.

So yes, so long as we don't attempt to actively exterminate and genocide the Seven, like they did with the Old Gods, I believe that we can coexist with them.
 
Diomedon said:
We will see if we have time. I wonder if the return of magic means having children is now easier for them and that is why they're gathering?
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True, seeing Bloodraven takes priority, and I think poor Goldfish will actually have a heart attack if we turn this into a genuine fetch quest rather than getting a good reputation among the Night's Watch.

But if we do have time I definitely want to ride down to the Fist of the First Men and talk with the giants.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
You have to understand that if we are Old Gods faith or support them at least and most of our future followers are Faith of the Seven, therefore, it is a certainty that the faith will continue to discredit us. Not to mention the fact that the Seven that are One basically asked that we give up all magic except theirs. You think they are going to accept someone who is in their eyes a heretic ruling over their devotees? Especially after we humiliated them? If there will be one difference between us and the Seven that are One is that unlike them we will finish what we started.
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Magic is rising again, the seven will have to give up that foolish stance sooner or later, and we can't finish them off without killing way too many of our subjects, so I want to make a truce, once we have fulfilled our obligations to the old gods.
Duesal said:
Nah, I'm pretty sure the Seven will do their level best to exterminate us well before we get around to killing those other threats. They've already got the Cleric of the Father whose divine mission is to find and train mages as clerics for the sole purpose of seeing us dead.

Once we manage to take Brienne from them (and maybe the Cleric of the Maiden, though personally I don't see that one happening), then that's a green light.
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Of course they will try to kill us, we will kill or turn the champions they send against us, and just keep doing that until they see it's futile, and they might as well use those champions on something actually productive.
Raichu1972 said:
On the subject of the Seven, I feel as though what Bloodraven asked us to do and what the thread wants to do are very different things.

Bloodraven asked us to humble the Seven, basically give them a bloody nose (destroy a few temples, kill a few champions, etc.)
This will sate most of the Old Gods, and they will lose their rampant murderboner.

What I've seen espoused in thread is straight up killing them all, which I'm not sure is even possible for Gods that are actively worshiped unless you start bringing in some Beyond Epic Level Bullshittery(tm), and at that point you're basically a God yourself.

The only other way to do so would be to try and force them into irrelevancy, like the Andals attempted, and almost succeeded in doing, to the Old Gods in Westeros. This also seems like a bad idea, because history has a tendency to repeat itself, and I would eat my hat if someone didn't end up making a pact with the Seven to humble the Targaryens and the Old Gods in the future.

Also, considering that the Andal Invasion happened before the Doom, there were probably some pretty high level opponents on either side, and I wouldn't be surprised if Epic Level Druids and Paladins were duking it out during the invasion, with far more power than we can muster.

So yes, so long as we don't attempt to actively exterminate and genocide the Seven, like they did with the Old Gods, I believe that we can coexist with them.
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You you get it, and even if we should somehow mysteriously acquire the power to kill a god, there are literally hundreds of gods worse than the seven.

Bloodraven is asking us to do just enough to the seven, that the part of the old gods still screaming in rage, will be satisfied enough that the cooler heads amongst them, can convince them to calm down, he don't want us to destroy the Seven, while the Seven is annoying, with the return of magic they can be useful, because at least their faith isn't actively malicious like so many others.
 
Raichu1972 said:
On the subject of the Seven, I feel as though what Bloodraven asked us to do and what the thread wants to do are very different things.

Bloodraven asked us to humble the Seven, basically give them a bloody nose (destroy a few temples, kill a few champions, etc.)
This will sate most of the Old Gods, and they will lose their rampant murderboner.

What I've seen espoused in thread is straight up killing them all, which I'm not sure is even possible for Gods that are actively worshiped unless you start bringing in some Beyond Epic Level Bullshittery(tm), and at that point you're basically a God yourself.

The only other way to do so would be to try and force them into irrelevancy, like the Andals attempted, and almost succeeded in doing, to the Old Gods in Westeros. This also seems like a bad idea, because history has a tendency to repeat itself, and I would eat my hat if someone didn't end up making a pact with the Seven to humble the Targaryens and the Old Gods in the future.

Also, considering that the Andal Invasion happened before the Doom, there were probably some pretty high level opponents on either side, and I wouldn't be surprised if Epic Level Druids and Paladins were duking it out during the invasion, with far more power than we can muster.

So yes, so long as we don't attempt to actively exterminate and genocide the Seven, like they did with the Old Gods, I believe that we can coexist with them.
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I'm betting that they won't peacefully coexist with us. The Seven have a very clear attitude of "all magic must be our magic or perish" that fundamentally goes against everything we're building our kingdom up to be. I will be well and truly shocked if they ever peacefully coexist with a sorcerer king and his guild who explicitly aren't under their control.

As for killing the Seven, that's just a desire without an actual plan. If we ever get the chance then I'd love to go for it. We've got Yss in the flesh and the Old Gods who would probably cheer us on despite having only asked us to humble the Seven.

Mainly, though, wanting to kill the Seven is because of a personal grudge. I got seriously pissed when asked to give up our magic and submit.
tarrangar said:
Of course they will try to kill us, we will kill or turn the champions they send against us, and just keep doing that until they see it's futile, and they might as well use those champions on something actually productive.
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I certainly hope they will. Turning/diplomancing clerics and paladins and killing any that want to kill us sounds great to me.
 
Duesal said:
I'm betting that they won't peacefully coexist with us. The Seven have a very clear attitude of "all magic must be our magic or perish" that fundamentally goes against everything we're building our kingdom up to be. I will be well and truly shocked if they ever peacefully coexist with a sorcerer king and his guild who explicitly aren't under their control.

As for killing the Seven, that's just a desire without an actual plan. If we ever get the chance then I'd love to go for it. We've got Yss in the flesh and the Old Gods who would probably cheer us on despite having only asked us to humble the Seven.

Mainly, though, wanting to kill the Seven is because of a personal grudge. I got seriously pissed when asked to give up our magic and submit.
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I kinda wish we can only kill some of the seven, much like the old gods, i feel their revulsion of magic only comes from some of their aspects, and peaceful coexistence will be possible if we get rid of those.
Most likely the father and warrior have to go, maybe the crone.
 
das_slash said:
I kinda wish we can only kill some of the seven, much like the old gods, i feel their revulsion of magic only comes from some of their aspects, and peaceful coexistence will be possible if we get rid of those.
Most likely the father and warrior have to go, maybe the crone.
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The Father is definitely on the "must die" list since he's actively trying to murder us. And maybe the Warrior depending on how things go. I would be fine in leaving the others alone.
 
tarrangar said:
Magic is rising again, the seven will have to give up that foolish stance sooner or later, and we can't finish them off without killing way too many of our subjects, so I want to make a truce, once we have fulfilled our obligations to the old gods.

Of course they will try to kill us, we will kill or turn the champions they send against us, and just keep doing that until they see it's futile, and they might as well use those champions on something actually productive.

You you get it, and even if we should somehow mysteriously acquire the power to kill a god, there are literally hundreds of gods worse than the seven.

Bloodraven is asking us to do just enough to the seven, that the part of the old gods still screaming in rage, will be satisfied enough that the cooler heads amongst them, can convince them to calm down, he don't want us to destroy the Seven, while the Seven is annoying, with the return of magic they can be useful, because at least their faith isn't actively malicious like so many others.
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I respectfully disagree with you since gods don't change. Gods do not repent or act like they are in the wrong. if there is one theme throughout myths it's this, especially to a human. When they said Humble the Seven I knew that this was going to end in either a perpetual war or dead gods. Gods do not bend, they do not change. Because that is their nature.
 
Duesal said:
The Father is definitely on the "must die" list since he's actively trying to murder us. And maybe the Warrior depending on how things go. I would be fine in leaving the others alone.
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I wonder if the Merling king has a wife.. that would be a great way to unite our pantheons and create lasting peace in westeros.
I am suggesting the Merling king because well, the other options are less than ideal unless the Maiden is quite dornish in her passions.
 
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