Like the question above, it would still be Qoren who decides. Truth be told I think we would get a say in it anyway, but I want to make sure. Just in case bad things happen between now and the time when it happens. Its not a big ask, but potentially a very important one.
A future where things got so bad in this relationship that Qoren would harm his own child because of it is a future where we seriously fucked up.
I'm gonna be honest, my default picture of the future is one where Rhaenyra makes a sincere effort to get along with her husband and build a functional relationship, with the compromises and trust involved in any such thing. Being on good terms with the man tied to her by marriage is important for her mental health, being on good terms with the Prince of Dorne is important for wrangling the delicate diplomatic situation, and overall Rhaenyra is a sincere and earnest person in many ways.
I would rather do our best to bring this future about than waste goodwill fretting and preparing for the extra fucked-up possible outcomes.
It's not just about harm coming to the child, and I think you are making too much of the Joffrey example.
And in general - yes, we can talk about how both sides will be reasonable and make a sincere effort and all that, but if it were just that simple we wouldn't need a marriage contract with all those individual points to begin with.
A future where things got so bad in this relationship that Qoren would harm his own child because of it is a future where we seriously fucked up.
I'm gonna be honest, my default picture of the future is one where Rhaenyra makes a sincere effort to get along with her husband and build a functional relationship, with the compromises and trust involved in any such thing. Being on good terms with the man tied to her by marriage is important for her mental health, being on good terms with the Prince of Dorne is important for wrangling the delicate diplomatic situation, and overall Rhaenyra is a sincere and earnest person in many ways.
I would rather do our best to bring this future about than waste goodwill fretting and preparing for the extra fucked-up possible outcomes.
I suppose that's fair, but the contract is worded in such a way that makes me suspicious about that specific line. It seems like a fairly easy ask to have a say in the squire thing and could potentially prevent problems in the future. It is something that Rhaenyra could get very unhappy about later and I want to nip that in the butt before that can happen.
Truth be told, if Qorens answer isn't "that was always meant to be the case anyway" I would be pretty upset, because it would mean that I was right and he actually specifically doesn't want us to have a say in it for some reason.
And to get away from the Joffrey example (because I can see how that might be misinterpreted) I am more worried about the fact that Rhaenyra might not have any say whatsoever in who the child will go to. This might very well be a covert attempt from Qoren to have more control about how the children are brought up by indirectly imprinting dornish values on the child during the squire time.
If we have a somewhat strained relationship with Qoren (for whatever reason) by the time this comes up, he might give the boy to a vassal that hangs around near him and so, by technicality, get around the rule that Rhaenyra is the parent that has pretty much complete say over their upbringing.
And in general - yes, we can talk about how both sides will be reasonable and make a sincere effort and all that, but if it were just that simple we wouldn't need a marriage contract with all those individual points to begin with.
A lot of the points in this contract are necessary because of how many other people are affected. It's a marriage that happens to decide the future of an entire kingdom; it's perfectly reasonable to have clearly defined points, both large and small-scale, to give the people affected some peace of mind and ensure their compliance since the treaty is clearly written out.
Rhaenyra would not get to choose which vassal her son would squire under, that would still be up to Qoren (sorry if that was unclear) but I want her to be able to speak up and have at least veto power if she thinks that that the proposal would seriously impact the child in a negative way and the way the agreement is worded currently does not guarantee that.
Like the question above, it would still be Qoren who decides. Truth be told I think we would get a say in it anyway, but I want to make sure. Just in case bad things happen between now and the time when it happens. Its not a big ask, but potentially a very important one.
[X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-try to make sure that the agreement specifies that Rhaenyra gets a say in which dornish vassal her potential son would squire under.
A lot of the points in this contract are necessary because of how many other people are affected. It's a marriage that happens to decide the future of an entire kingdom; it's perfectly reasonable to have clearly defined points, both large and small-scale, to give the people affected some peace of mind and ensure their compliance since the treaty is clearly written out.
Right, and that is why Soup wants their point in the treaty as well. If we have points specifying where each child is to be raised and who has authority over that, then we can in fact negotiate over those points instead of just going "eh well, it'll solve itself".
Some more terms for the negotiation here. I have fun in cooking these up. So feel free to poke a stick in it or whatever anyone like.
-[ ] Squire Balancing : Request the vassal that want to Squire our son to give their son to us to be our Squire too.
--[ ] Optional Argument : As trust and bond building endeavor entrusting each son to each other is a great start to trust building. This also ensure that the next generation Knights highly regard each other by having shared familial figure in their fellow Teacher-Knights.
-[ ] Squire Lineage : Request the vassal that want to Squire our future son to give their age appropriate son to us to be our Squire so in turn our son can squire with the former squire.
--[ ] Optional Argument : As trust and bond building endeavor entrusting each son to each other is a great start to trust building. It is a great honor to be so involved in a Martial Lineage of Royalty and build strong long-term regard akin to grand sire, sire, and grandchildren.
-[ ] Rhaenyra's Road : Request the different in discounted tax to goes to integration endeavor, like port; road; way station; and well, in Dornish side of the old border. The other side infrastructure will be done by the crown. Rename Prince's Pass into Rhaenyra's Pass or Princesss' Pass.
--[ ] Optional Argument : As Dorne started unification into Seven Kingdom previously neglected infrastructure between the neighboring territory need to be normalized for higher traffic of trade and people. By using the discount it show Dornish willingness to cooperate and invest in mutual well-being with Seven Kingdom with out unnecessarily burdening Dornish by extracting their wealth outside of their border. The renaming is wedding gift For Rhaenyra.
-[ ] Rhaenyra's Pond : Request creation of Dornish Fleet from the different in discounted tax. The crown will also subsidize the expertise and material if sourced from other Seven Kingdoms especially from the North, Iron Island, and Stormland.
--[ ] Optional Argument : Dornish strong strategic position can protect access between the two coast of Westeros if stationed with a strong fleet. Dorne Naval Power also greatly supplement Rhaenyra power base in the Eastern Westeros. Together with North, Vale, and Crownland, Dorne will be able to contain Stormland hostility to Rhaenyra bloc or Essos hostility to Westeros. The incentive to use Seven Kingdoms resources also aim to accelerate integration and economic activity in the poorer Kingdoms.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
--[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty
--[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls) -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
--[X] (Optional) Argument for Stepstones : Their location are strategic importance to open Narrow Sea as connection for Rhaenyra supporter bases of Vale, Crownland, and Dorne.
-[X] Give Rhaenyra Dornish Squire as soon as treaty formalised -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
-[X] Marriage Deadline
--[X] (Optional) Argument: 18 months places it at high risk of taking place during winter. This could block significant portions of the kingdoms from being able to visit. 24 months is likely more secure
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls)
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
--[X] (Optional) Argument for Stepstones : Their location are strategic importance to open Narrow Sea as connection for Rhaenyra supporter bases of Vale, Crownland, and Dorne.
-[X] Give Rhaenyra Dornish Squire as soon as treaty formalised -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls) -[X] The timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty --[X] An immediate oath of fealty upon marriage would offer Dorne more protection against Daemon's Bloodstone Kingdom than an alliance. In a fight between an allied Dorne and Bloodstone, the Iron Throne would be forced into an impossible choice between kin, to help one over the other, or to help neither. In a fight between a Dorne sworn to the Iron Throne, and a Bloodstone which is not, the Iron Throne's position would already be decided. Even should Bloodstone itself later swear fealty, the Iron Throne would be obliged to side against the aggressor in the name of the King's or Queen's Peace. Swearing fealty immediately might even deter such a war entirely.
-[X] Ask what seems to be the issue with Stepstone negotiations
[X] Speak to Qoren About the Deal
-[x] The heir to Dorne will be raised in Sunspear from the age of five
--[x] being seperated from our child at Five is directly opposed to our wanting greater influence over our children, and our plans of "Dragons ruling Dorne in time." This gives Dorne a dragonrider to mold in their image and should be a red line for the crown.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls) -[X] try to make sure that the agreement specifies that Rhaenyra gets a say in which dornish vassal her potential son would squire under.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls) -[x] Write-in bring up the the potential issue about building a dragon pit for sunspear? Tell the prince that dragons should at least have a place to rest and be alone. That Dragonkeepers would be extremely helpful in the matter in making sure that everything goes more smoothly.
[x] Speak to Qoren About the Deal (This will involve Hidden Dice Rolls) -[X] You want a Bedding Ceremony --[X] It's a merry custom. Every man or woman, knight or lady, king or queen since the beginning of time has done it. There's no reason why we should avoid it.
Since this is still ongoing, I'm gonna make an effort to promote just asking what's up with the Stepstones.
Most people seem to like the terms overall. There is one point that a relatively large percentage of the voterbase seems to have an issue with - the timing - but it's hard to make an argument about this one that doesn't look like an admission of weakness, a threat, or both. Simply accepting would probably improve our father and Qoren's moods, and restarting the argument about timing is not in any way guaranteed to result in actual change - they've had a long time to debate this out.
The Stepstones issue is still unresolved, and a point of a great deal of debate as per the update. We also still have no idea what Daemon said to Qoren, and very little information on how it's going in general. Whatever the snag is, I would really like to know!
Qoren is also really interesting and I'd like to interact with him more.
If anybody else feels the same way, I urge you to approval vote for the option to ask what seems to be the issue with the Stepstones. Even if it's not something we can affect immediately, it's still good to be aware, and expressing curiosity seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't negatively affect Qoren's mood, at least.
I realize it is rather late in the vote to be coming up with a new one, but I do still share the concerns about the timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty even if I'm somewhat unsure about the argument being used here. I really would prefer that Dorne's fealty be sworn before Rhaenyra's ascension to the throne, but I can't really think of any good arguments that aren't an admission of weakness as well.
I'm not saying the existing arguments are an admission of weakness, only that I cannot think of any good ones for why Dorne should swear fealty earlier that aren't one. Because ultimately its a desire borne out of the fear of assassination and rebellion having their fealty tied to when Rhaenyra ascends the throne.
I see. I just feel we can be more honest and vulnerable with Qoren especially as Rhaenyra going to marry and have a family with him. Then we can see how he react to admission of vulnerability. Will he be more open with us too?
I see. I just feel we can be more honest and vulnerable with Qoren especially as Rhaenyra going to marry and have a family with him. Then we can see how he react to admission of vulnerability. Will he be more open with us too?
There's a difference between personal vulnerability and admission of weakness from the heir. A Prince's duty is to his kingdom, and outright telling him that hitching his horse to ours might see Dorne dragged into a succession war would be a really bad move. Especially when we barely know him yet!
The current write-in does not say that, but it does basically imply we aren't actually gonna commit to the alliance (because if Daemon initiates hostilities, we should bring him to heel for the sake of an ally).
Since this is still ongoing, I'm gonna make an effort to promote just asking what's up with the Stepstones.
Most people seem to like the terms overall. There is one point that a relatively large percentage of the voterbase seems to have an issue with - the timing - but it's hard to make an argument about this one that doesn't look like an admission of weakness, a threat, or both. Simply accepting would probably improve our father and Qoren's moods, and restarting the argument about timing is not in any way guaranteed to result in actual change - they've had a long time to debate this out.
The Stepstones issue is still unresolved, and a point of a great deal of debate as per the update. We also still have no idea what Daemon said to Qoren, and very little information on how it's going in general. Whatever the snag is, I would really like to know!
Qoren is also really interesting and I'd like to interact with him more.
If anybody else feels the same way, I urge you to approval vote for the option to ask what seems to be the issue with the Stepstones. Even if it's not something we can affect immediately, it's still good to be aware, and expressing curiosity seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't negatively affect Qoren's mood, at least.
I realize it is rather late in the vote to be coming up with a new one, but I do still share the concerns about the timing of Dorne's swearing of fealty even if I'm somewhat unsure about the argument being used here. I really would prefer that Dorne's fealty be sworn before Rhaenyra's ascension to the throne, but I can't really think of any good arguments that aren't an admission of weakness as well.
IIRC in Medieval Europe IRL, these kinds of terms were the standard for integrating new territories into another Kingdom through marriage (there were exceptions obviously)... If both prospective spouses were already the king/queen of their respective Kingdoms the Union happened immediately upon their marrriage, but if one or both of the future spouses were still the heir and not the ruler of one of their respective kingdoms, the kingdoms entered a firm alliance upon the marriage/enagagement but the union itself happened when they both became king/queen and not before...
Currently It is a dangerous proposition to sent a Kid to Seven Kingdom the alliance would still be young. It is a glorified hostage. Especially as our son is to be sent to skeptical vassal. That is glorified hostage.
I mean with hostages you're supposed to treat them well. So when they go back to their family they can advocate for the host. The whole thing with Sansa being a punching bag was not how it's done. Also by the time a possible 3rd child is old enough to squire there be at least over a decade of time of working together between the Iron Throne and Dorne. Also you know the kid will probably have a dragon so there that as well.
The biggest issue with the current timing vote is that it is obligely threatening that the Iron Throne wouldn't actually honour the alliance if Daemon tests it, which is not something that will improve our bargaining position.
There's a difference between personal vulnerability and admission of weakness from the heir. A Prince's duty is to his kingdom, and outright telling him that hitching his horse to ours might see Dorne dragged into a succession war would be a really bad move. Especially when we barely know him yet!
The current write-in does not say that, but it does basically imply we aren't actually gonna commit to the alliance (because if Daemon initiates hostilities, we should bring him to heel for the sake of an ally).
The biggest issue with the current timing vote is that it is obligely threatening that the Iron Throne wouldn't actually honour the alliance if Daemon tests it, which is not something that will improve our bargaining position.
I see it is not the difference between personal and political but between bloc and their agenda. Qoren is wedding his and Rhaenyra political bloc but he is negotiating with Viserys whose agenda is at best allied with Rhaenyra political bloc. Viserys is willfully blind with possibility that his vassals and/or his brother wanted to put his daughter and/or his ally to the sword.
His agenda don't plan about fighting Daemon and don't safeguard against it. This is part of my anti-Viserys view that Viserys doesn't have our best interest in heart. Instead We and Qoren as political bloc are closer in purpose and need to safeguard the possibility that Viserys blindness will doom Rhaenyra and Qoren by Daemon action.
Imagine a scenario. After marriage and birth of the first Child. Rhaenyra and the Child is in KL while Qoren is in Dorne when Daemon attacked an allied Dorne. Viserys receive the message and Rhaenyra wanted to attack immediately against Daemon to save Qoren.
Will Viserys send Rhaenyra on Syrax and an army to defeat Daemon? When Rhaenyra and his grandchild and heir of heir is safe in KL? Or will he sacrifice an ally so that his house will be "peaceful" like he sacrificed Aemond's eye OTL? His son-in-law vs his brother?
Viserys blindness and unreliability have been or will be apparent for Qoren sooner or latter. And the unsaid of Viserys being the weak link can be easily glimpsed by shrewd Qoren. Being vulnerable here is just being open so a potential ally may take a better positioning in negotiation to a third party, Viserys. And this is risky but also easy bargain for him because if Qoren reject our term he will still be under the same dangling fire of Caraxas.
I agree it is a fine term. But unfortunately we are not in a standard condition. We are in position that Daemon may at any time decide to weaken us by burning Dorne and Viserys may not lift a finger.
I mean with hostages you're supposed to treat them well. So when they go back to their family they can advocate for the host. The whole thing with Sansa being a punching bag was not how it's done. Also by the time a possible 3rd child is old enough to squire there be at least over a decade of time of working together between the Iron Throne and Dorne. Also you know the kid will probably have a dragon so there that as well.
Agree, that is why I advocate taking Squire-hostage too from Dornish. I've also posted many time about the two way street of polite diplomatic fiction of hostage. That it can be relationship and trust strengthener if done well and vice versa.
I see it is not the difference between personal and political but between bloc and their agenda. Qoren is wedding his and Rhaenyra political bloc but he is negotiating with Viserys whose agenda is at best allied with Rhaenyra political bloc. Viserys is willfully blind with possibility that his vassals and/or his brother wanted to put his daughter and/or his ally to the sword.
His agenda don't plan about fighting Daemon and don't safeguard against it. This is part of my anti-Viserys view that Viserys doesn't have our best interest in heart. Instead We and Qoren as political bloc are closer in purpose and need to safeguard the possibility that Viserys blindness will doom Rhaenyra and Qoren by Daemon action.
Imagine a scenario. After marriage and birth of the first Child. Rhaenyra and the Child is in KL while Qoren is in Dorne when Daemon attacked an allied Dorne. Viserys receive the message and Rhaenyra wanted to attack immediately against Daemon to save Qoren.
Will Viserys send Rhaenyra on Syrax and an army to defeat Daemon? When Rhaenyra and his grandchild and heir of heir is safe in KL? Or will he sacrifice an ally so that his house will be "peaceful" like he sacrificed Aemond's eye OTL? His son-in-law vs his brother?
Viserys blindness and unreliability have been or will be apparent for Qoren sooner or latter. And the unsaid of Viserys being the weak link can be easily glimpsed by shrewd Qoren. Being vulnerable here is just being open so a potential ally may take a better positioning in negotiation to a third party, Viserys. And this is risky but also easy bargain for him because if Qoren reject our term he will still be under the same dangling fire of Caraxas.
I agree it is a fine term. But unfortunately we are not in a standard condition. We are in position that Daemon may at any time decide to weaken us by burning Dorne and Viserys may not lift a finger.
Agree, that is why I advocate taking Squire-hostage too from Dornish. I've also posted many time about the two way street of polite diplomatic fiction of hostage. That it can be relationship and trust strengthener if done well and vice versa.
I'm not disagreeing that Viserys might dither around if it happens, but pointing that out makes the whole deal significantly less appealing to Qoren. We are undermining our own side by saying something like this.
Also, if this actually comes up, the more important question is if Rhaenyra takes the field with Syrax, so, her faffing about not honoring the alliance is even worse than if anyone else said this since it sounds like she won't honour it either.
Also, if this actually comes up, the more important question is if Rhaenyra takes the field with Syrax, so, her faffing about not honoring the alliance is even worse than if anyone else said this since it sounds like she won't honour it either.
That! Is an important point. Rhaenyra is the Throne's strength, the only currently reliable dragonrider who can be counted on to enforce the King's Peace without cajoling, and undeniably, through and through, a warrior. If she says the Throne won't stand up against Daemon if he attacks an ally, that sounds awfully like saying that she won't, because she'd be the one doing the standing.
