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The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

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Temes1066 said:
Another major issue, caused by the Pro-Qoren agenda.
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You do know he was literally one step away from total unquestioning loyalty right? Having him take a hit from that back down to "reasonably loyal" (and the degradation probably wasn't that severe anyway) isn't an impossible situation to come back from.
 
Teen Spirit said:
I will say you don't have to make expanding the Royal Progress to Dorne a voting option since it would kind of be expected. Adding Qoren to the progress is different since you're asking him to be away from Sunspear for six months or more on a trip through some less than friendly places.
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Well, if the Progress restarts after the marriage, then bringing him with us seems like a good idea.

Zimmerwald1915 said:
I agree, I really don't think we should sleep on this plank.
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Exactly! We need to be sure Rhaenyra can control her children upbringing, if nothing else for her peace of mind.
 
Mystic Pentagram said:
If we write down that all the children can claim a dragon, then its a waste because that is already implicitly how it works. But writing it down might create problematic precedents later, when House Targaryen starts having multiple cadet branches between the Martell and the Velaryon.
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I kind of worry that if we don't say we want this, then the assumed-Martell-heir just won't get a dragon, which has the potential of creating a fairly awkward situation should anyone die... anyway, the requests are not really the equivalent of going to a store and buying stuff for a Moderate Price or whatever, they're purely informative of what we want for our father, so that he can keep it in mind when he does the actual negotiating. If we put down the whole picture of "dragon-riding, assigned-Targaryen-at-birth children", imo it works at conveying what we want better.
 
Annatar said:
(and the degradation probably wasn't that severe anyway)
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Yeah, we'd have been told if the degradation was severe enough to drop Ser Raylon's opinion of us from Near-Unquestioningly Loyal to whatever the next tier down from that is. Unless Teen Spirit made a mistake, but I wouldn't bet on that.
 
I think @TheBarrometer had the right ideas for a plan. Seeing as equal primogeniture is a moderate request, and so is delaying the marriage to spring, I would think something like this

[]Plan: She stays a dragon
-[] Request that all your children have the Name Targaryen, with Qoren's heir taking the Martell name upon succession. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask that all of your children be allowed to claim dragons or given dragon eggs. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] Delay the actual wedding.
--[] One year. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] WRITE-IN: Request to change the wedding ceremony to leave out the cloaking

The last point might also be extended to leave out the bedding ceremony as people have suggested here.

There is also the nice to have:
[] Request Qoren to join you on your remaining royal progress. (This is a Minor Request)
...but this may be too many requests then.
 
Mystic Pentagram said:
Exactly! We need to be sure Rhaenyra can control her children upbringing, if nothing else for her peace of mind.
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I wouldn't put it quite that way. And there are more material advantages: if we want our kids to be able to claim Vermithor, Silverwing, et al when they grow older, we had better be damned sure we can place them on Dragonstone when they're of the right age. And likewise to keep them away from littler dragons until they're that age.
 
Yeah, kinda don't want Qoren on our Progress, we've already been to the North and Vale, essentially the least Anti-Dornish regions of Westeros. It's just gonna make our Stormlands and Reach visits more uncomfortable if the Prince of Dorne is there with us.

Seems easier to just honeymoon with him at Sunspear to round out the Progress.

Also
[] Ask that all of your children be allowed to claim dragons or given dragon eggs. (This is a Minor Request)

How does this count as a request, I would think that Qoren would be super down for it?
 
Actually, since multiple people now separated their wants into "must-have" and "nice to have", @Teen Spirit would it be acceptable if a plan, say, had a "high priority" half and a "low priority" one? Basically to communicate to our father "this is what I consider very important to me/the core idea, and this is what I would like but isn't essential" or would that be annoying for him (or you)?
 
[X] Ask that all of your children be allowed to claim dragons or given dragon eggs. (This is a Minor Request)

[X] Request absolute cognatic inheritance of both titles to be spelled out in the agreement. The firstborn inherits the Iron Throne, the secondborn Dorne, regardless of gender. (This is a Moderate Request)
 
Hercobulus said:
[X] Ask that all of your children be allowed to claim dragons or given dragon eggs. (This is a Minor Request)

[X] Request absolute cognatic inheritance of both titles to be spelled out in the agreement. The firstborn inherits the Iron Throne, the secondborn Dorne, regardless of gender. (This is a Moderate Request)
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There's a Moratorium in effect and also it's a plan vote.
 
Teen Spirit said:
Not the big drop will only happen if you fumble your next talk with him, or ignore him for a while.
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Tarly: I'm worried Princess. You were the chosen one to bring Dorne to its knees, but it seems that you are being seduced by their greater gender equality and tolerance of LGBTQ+ relationships.
Rhaenyra: You got it all wrong Ser Tarly, this isn't me being seduced, I'm the one seducing here! This is but the first step of my ten-step plan to Gaslight, Gatekeep, Girlboss Dorne. Trust me bro.
 
[] Plan Best Diplomatic Foot Forward
-[] Delay the actual wedding.
--[] Until the beginning of spring. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request that all your children have the Name Targaryen, with Qoren's heir taking the Martell name upon succession. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request absolute cognatic inheritance of both titles to be spelled out in the agreement. The firstborn inherits the Iron Throne, the secondborn Dorne, regardless of gender. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask for a voice on Stepstone matters. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request Qoren to join you on your remaining royal progress. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] WRITE-IN: Request to change the wedding ceremony to leave out the cloaking

This is the Susano plan but adding Stepstones and progress plank to start our diplomatic strategy and delay until spring to increase our preparation.
Mystic Pentagram said:
-[] Request control over where all your kids, save Qoren's heir, are raised. (This is a Major Request)
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
I wouldn't put it quite that way. And there are more material advantages: if we want our kids to be able to claim Vermithor, Silverwing, et al when they grow older, we had better be damned sure we can place them on Dragonstone when they're of the right age. And likewise to keep them away from littler dragons until they're that age.
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I feel this plank together with name is too aggresive a request. I feel it show that we are too suspicious with Qoren to agree with us on how the kid is raised. Especially with the Targaryen name the children are more legally our rather than Qoren.

By explicitly requesting it on the treaty that we are the controller of children we put on writing that we didn't trust Qoren to raise children in a shared household. Weakening our personal relation and our political bloc.
 
I'm not sure why requesting absolute cognatic is something that would give Prince Qoren any additional leverage. It seems more like something that is a benefit to him and his instead, given that it's the norm in Dorne. In essence, it is and would seem like a demonstration of Dornish influence on the Seven Kingdoms, not something the Iron Throne would impose on Dorne.

Bringing Dornish succession laws to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms just seems like a prestige win for them, as well as something that would work on reducing the "otherness" of Dorne from the rest.
 
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MacroDaemon said:
I'm not sure why requesting absolute cognatic is something that would give Prince Qoren any additional leverage. It seems more like a something that's a benefit to him and his instead, given that it's the norm in Dorne. In essence, it is and would seem like a demonstration of Dornish influence on the Seven Kingdoms, not something the Iron Throne would impose on Dorne.
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I kind of fell the same about the Dragons for all of our kids, and the Dragonpitt in Sunspear...
 
[] Asking for it All
-[] Delay the actual wedding.
--[] Until the beginning of spring. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask for a voice on Stepstone matters. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask that all of your children be allowed to claim dragons or given dragon eggs. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] Request that all your children have the Name Targaryen, with Qoren's heir taking the Martell name upon succession. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request absolute cognatic inheritance of both titles to be spelled out in the agreement. The firstborn inherits the Iron Throne, the secondborn Dorne, regardless of gender. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request control over where all your kids, save Qoren's heir, are raised. (This is a Major Request)

Just throwing this out there to test if it'll annoy Daddy.
 
UrbanAvena said:
[] Plan Best Diplomatic Foot Forward
-[] Delay the actual wedding.
--[] Until the beginning of spring. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request that all your children have the Name Targaryen, with Qoren's heir taking the Martell name upon succession. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request absolute cognatic inheritance of both titles to be spelled out in the agreement. The firstborn inherits the Iron Throne, the secondborn Dorne, regardless of gender. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask for a voice on Stepstone matters. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request Qoren to join you on your remaining royal progress. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] WRITE-IN: Request to change the wedding ceremony to leave out the cloaking
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I would say this would is probably enough to annoy Viserys Mildly. Remove one option or reduce Delaying the Wedding and Viserys will be okay with it. Though keep in mind you can still do the plan even if Viserys gets annoyed with you.


Zimmerwald1915 said:
[] Asking for it All
-[] Delay the actual wedding.
--[] Until the beginning of spring. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask for a voice on Stepstone matters. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask that all of your children be allowed to claim dragons or given dragon eggs. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] Request that all your children have the Name Targaryen, with Qoren's heir taking the Martell name upon succession. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request absolute cognatic inheritance of both titles to be spelled out in the agreement. The firstborn inherits the Iron Throne, the secondborn Dorne, regardless of gender. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request control over where all your kids, save Qoren's heir, are raised. (This is a Major Request)

Just throwing this out there to test if it'll annoy Daddy.
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Yeah Four Moderates and a Major is basically trying to dictate Viserys whole side of the matter.
 
UrbanAvena said:
By explicitly requesting it on the treaty that we are the controller of children we put on writing that we didn't trust Qoren to raise children in a shared household.
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I mean, we don't and can't. Qoren doesn't know High Valyrian, he has no inkling of how the Faith of the Seven relates to the fourteen true gods, he cannot ride dragons. No fault of his, but these are things only we can bring to a household.
 
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The only important thing, as far as timespan of quest goes irl, is step stones and when
/where/how wedding takes place and whether he comes with us on the progress or not.
 
Teen Spirit said:
Yeah Four Moderates and a Major is basically trying to dictate Viserys whole side of the matter.
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Ok what about this @Teen Spirit ?

[] Plan: Don't ask for anything "Major".
-[] Delay the actual wedding.
--[] Until the beginning of spring. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Ask for a voice on Stepstone matters. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request Qoren to join you on your remaining royal progress. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] Ask that all of your children be allowed to claim dragons or given dragon eggs. (This is a Minor Request)
-[] Request that all your children have the Name Targaryen, with Qoren's heir taking the Martell name upon succession. (This is a Moderate Request)
-[] Request absolute cognatic inheritance of both titles to be spelled out in the agreement. The firstborn inherits the Iron Throne, the secondborn Dorne, regardless of gender. (This is a Moderate Request)
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
I kind of fell the same about the Dragons for all of our kids, and the Dragonpitt in Sunspear...
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Dragonpit feels more like asking for Qoren money to be spent.
Question @Teen Spirit
Is the request weightness more about Viserys feeling? Also dragon for all and absolute cognatic seems like mutually beneficial will this increase Qoren request too? Thank you.
Zimmerwald1915 said:
I mean, we don't and can't. Qoren doesn't know High Valyrian, he has no inkling of how the Faith of the Seven relates to the fourteen true gods, he cannot ride dragons. No fault of his, but these are things only we can bring to a household.
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My point is the issue is appropiate for in-house discussion between two parents regarding their children not to be put on the treaty every maester can read. If Qoren can not personally see the benefit of the children learning the Valyrian side of the family without it put into a diplomatic treaty we should not marry him at all.
 
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