[X] [Alicent] A Trip To Dragonstone
[X] [Steffon] Put His Name Forward
[X] [Marriage] [Defiant] Write to Prince Qoren Martell
 
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[X] [Alicent] A Trip To Dragonstone
[X] [Steffon] Put His Name Forward
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys
[X] [Marriage] [Defiant] Write to Prince Qoren Martell
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Alicent and Gwayne Hightower
 
[X] [Alicent] A Trip To Dragonstone
[X] [Steffon] Urge Him to Seek Some Other Role in King's Landing
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys

A visit to Dragonstone is sensible even if it were not for a romantic getaway. Taking the boat can be explained as us bringing our own staff to the castle to properly establish our demesne.

Steffon is not qualified for the guard, he will last as long as it takes for one of his subordinates to get sick of not getting his bribes and will fall out of a window on top of 50 knives.

Viserys has the main say in the marriage as our liege and father. For all that I favour the Dornish match we need to know more about him and Viserys is the only one that could arrange a proper face to face meeting for us to get a proper feel for him. Letters can be deceptive and intercepted preventing either of us from being truthful.
 
[X] [Alicent] A Trip To Dragonstone
[X] [Steffon] Put His Name Forward
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys
[X] [Marriage] [Defiant] Write to Prince Qoren Martell
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Alicent and Gwayne Hightower
 
[X] [Alicent] A Night On the Town (Alicent May refuse. If she does, next most voted for option will be taken instead.)

Comedy hour option: Rhaenyra goes out on the town dressed as a boy with Alicent. Cross-dresses convincingly enough that Laenor, who hasn't actually seen Rhaenyra that many times and is also in town for some reason, mistakenly hits on her.

[] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys
Definitely a big figure in all this, but (EDIT) I think he may not be the best person either to give us advice or to tell us things we don't already know. The other figures here, I chose with that in mind.

[X] [Marriage] Speak to Alicent and Gwayne Hightower
Speaking to both of them at the same time, candidly, about the terms of a marriage with Gwayne would be a big deal. A big part of why we'd even be doing it is for Alicent's sake, and Alicent may also reveal things about how she feels about our marriage in general.

[X] [Marriage] Speak to Alicent Hightower
This is a write-in I approve of, see above.

[X] [Marriage] Speak with Rhaenys Targaryen
I'm coming to share the interest in speaking with Rhaenys, an opportunity we keep missing.

[X] [Marriage] [Defiant] Write to Prince Qoren Martell
Honestly I just wanna hear what he has to say.

I do find it hilarious how asking Otto about marriage prospects is an option when his son is one of them. What do you think he will suggest?
I don't think it's just about "who should I marry," but also "let me clarify the situation by seeking other perspectives."

Rhae seems to favour Harwyn and is the one that would make her the most happy based on what we know...
I mean, that's kind of the problem, Rhaenyra thinks Harwin is hot and has a great personality, and of all the marriage candidates he's the one who has the greatest potential to actually win a place in Rhaenyra's heart equal to Alicent's.

But while Rhaenyra is down for that level of romantic polyamory, Alicent and Harwin may not be, and it's kind of a minefield. Whereas "the marriage is political and I just don't love him the way I love you" is a lot more likely to keep her happy in the relationship.

Frankly I think Harwin would be a much better choice if we hadn't gone and done the rather predictable SV thing of specifically chasing after the lesbian option with Alicent. I'm fine that we did, it just makes the Harwin marriage option less straightforward and desirable.

If Rhaenyra were actually just good friends with a little romantic subtext with Alicent, Gwayne probably wouldn't even be on the radar as a marriage option, but Harwin would be a great choice from the "happy love marriage" perspective.

Yes, in theory it is Viserys' decision in the end, but he has given us free hand, and I see no reason to doubt him there. So going to him might be a bit superfluous. And, as others have noted before, while he is forbearing, generous and well-intended, he is not the most astute political observer, and honestly, I even doubt his expertise in interpersonal matters, too.
Oooh, that's... frankly a good point. Viserys will have opinions and they may be respectable, but he's made some bad or questionable choices and he's not at all a master of intrigue.

They're enough of a problem that canon Rhaenyra just ate the reputation loss instead. Honestly, fucking off to Essos to secretly find a similar looking enough boy would probably be less stressful than trying with Laenor. It's not impossible, but it is undeniably a problem.
My working hypothesis is that Westeros never invented the turkey baster and isn't creative enough about bedroom shenanigans to think of something useful for this situation.

I am a ride or die canon black fanboy with a huge crush on Rhaenyra and even I can admit that canon Rhaenyra was stubborn and unwilling to bend. I do not think she even considered an option other than the "natural" way and if Laeonr was saying no then she was more than happy to find herself a willing donor
In fairness, canon Rhaenyra probably also had a "I just want to get laid, damnit" angle. She was a healthy young woman with, presumably, a normal libido whose husband would always, always be erotically interested in handsome squires and never really in her... AND she both wanted and politically speaking needed to have children.

Taking on a male paramour solved two serious problems at once.

Thanks to Alicent, Rhaenyra has only one of these two problems.

...

He's a dornish schemer. Best case he'll want a more intimate relationship than our romance with alicent allows, worst case he'll steal our throne.
...I don't understand. Steal the throne? With what, a crane?

In some ways he's least likely of all the marriage choices to be seen as "the husband that Andal lords can talk to instead of the queen," so he can't realistically be hoping to run the Seven Kingdoms through Rhaenyra. He even expresses respect for Rhaenyra's strength and independence in this letter when he's never met her, which suggests that he's not planning it.
 
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Oooh, that's... frankly a good point. Viserys will have opinions and they may be respectable, but he's made some bad or questionable choices and he's not at all a master of intrigue.
Also Consulting Viserys is likely to be constantly available to us. There need be a great change in our political & relationship dynamic to change his availability. Other options availability may be precarious for latter chance. Some will not be as accessible if the political situation change like Stepstone conflict erupting or a new Rhaenyra half-brother born. We can also consult Viserys later when we have shortlist or final candidates in mind.


Temporary Tally.
Adhoc vote count started by UrbanAvena on Feb 11, 2025 at 9:47 PM, finished with 116 posts and 65 votes.

People who prefer other options over Viserys but approval vote him too, can blank their approval of Viserys to allow their preferred option overtake Viserys, the leading winner right now. Voting him and your preferred candidate together is nullifying your preferred candidate advantage by both increasing their vote share and the winner they need to overtake. People can also approval vote other options or re-approve Viserys if a disliked option are in advantage.
 
Also Consulting Viserys is likely to be constantly available to us. There need be a great change in our political & relationship dynamic to change his availability. Other options availability may be precarious for latter chance. Some will not be as accessible if the political situation change like Stepstone conflict erupting or a new Rhaenyra half-brother born. We can also consult Viserys later when we have shortlist or final candidates in mind.

People who prefer other options over Viserys but approval vote him too, can blank their approval of Viserys to allow their preferred option overtake Viserys, the leading winner right now. Voting him and your preferred candidate together is nullifying your preferred candidate advantage by both increasing their vote share and the winner they need to overtake. People can also approval vote other options or re-approve Viserys if a disliked option are in advantage.
I am inclined to agree that we probably shouldn't pick Viserys first, if we're going to get multiple rounds of picks.

Our main examples of dornish are oberyn and doran. And Qoren in the letter comes of as Doran if he could walk properly like his brother. And even if i'm just paranoid and he is a decent guy who will leave us be with our girl Alicent there are still our many dorne hating lords and qoren's (implied to feel the same about our lords) vassals.

If we want to avoid a mess like the canon one, gwayne and laenor are best.
Laenor is literally the canon option and created many problems for Rhaenyra, mostly though not entirely as an indirect result of her having to take a male paramour if she wanted to ever have children. This problem would be made even more complicated in this timeline because Rhaenyra is a romantic who already has a separate paramour, so she'd be juggling a husband and two "favorites," both of whom are likely to be at least somewhat jealous of each other.

Now now, if the red door lemon tree theories are right Doran either briefly looked after Dany or got a puppet to believe she's Dany and hatch dragons.

Its either that or GRRM doesn't know how citrus fruit works and ASOIAF never has any inaccuracies around agriculture not one error ever
Heh. Could you expand on the lemons thing though?

Then why would he let the Targaryen slip out of his grasp?

Allowing them to leave for Essos, were he can't protect or control them.
He might have felt like his ability to indirectly protect them in Essos would be stronger than his ability to protect them in Dorne, if he had to worry about Robert and, importantly, Tywin looking for the Targaryen heirs with a large axe.

While I know it isn't going to win, I feel that hawking is criminally underrepresented in the books.
There's some wonderful hawking stuff in The Once And Future King by T. H. White, and I wish I ever saw something like it again.

Kind of annoyed the option to speak to both Gawain and Alicent was always tied into the marriage. Could have done something else with our Gawain conversation.
As Teen Spirit pointed out, clarifying the situation with Gawain going into that conversation is probably going to help us come to a better understanding. Gwayne now fully grasps that we're serious about Alicent, and hopefully all that weird "kind of an asshole" stuff he felt like he had to say is off his chest.

Also, the "Gwayne and Alicent" option is the only one that involves talking to Alicent. Since with literally every marriage option the "but how will Alicent feel about this" angle is going to be very important, we kind of need to get a sense of her general emotions, not just on how she might feel if we marry Gwayne, but if we don't. This is most likely to give us that.

I like Steffon. He's very dense (no doubt he'll find himself with a harem soon enough), but definitely has his heart in the right place. There's no need to worry about his loyalty, though possibly he could be tricked by somebody into acting against us.
With that said, we really DO then need to take more actions to secure the control of the City Watch. Steffon seems loyal and very unlikely to knowingly betray a friend or a patron (matron?), and competent enough, and not lazy, so that's good... But he won't be rooting out any conspiracies.

When Daemon was able to prevail on his old connections to stage a coup in King's Landing, the existing officers of the Watch who weren't his appointees were almost certainly cut from the same cloth as Steffon Redfort, in other words.

Big fan of Rhaenys, and Steffon seems like he'd be a loyal commander, most important thing is loyalty folks.
Ehhh. You want a combination of brains and loyalty. Brainy semi-loyal people are very helpful to have as long as you're in a position to reward them for acting loyal rather than disloyal, which we hope to be. Loyal semi-brainy people are very helpful to have around because they have a reasonable chance of actually detecting machinations and shenanigans that the leader simply cannot see because they happen "at ground level" when she's at 5000 feet.

Extreme disloyalty and extreme stupidity are both bad, and Steffon is... well, kind of a stupid man.

Steffon is not qualified for the guard, he will last as long as it takes for one of his subordinates to get sick of not getting his bribes and will fall out of a window on top of 50 knives.
Oooh, you're right, that IS a problem.

SInce I don't really care that much if Steffon lives or dies, I don't mind, but it underlines the issue that we need to cultivate some actually smart talent in the Watch.
 
As Teen Spirit pointed out, clarifying the situation with Gawain going into that conversation is probably going to help us come to a better understanding. Gwayne now fully grasps that we're serious about Alicent, and hopefully all that weird "kind of an asshole" stuff he felt like he had to say is off his chest.

Also, the "Gwayne and Alicent" option is the only one that involves talking to Alicent. Since with literally every marriage option the "but how will Alicent feel about this" angle is going to be very important, we kind of need to get a sense of her general emotions, not just on how she might feel if we marry Gwayne, but if we don't. This is most likely to give us that.
Yes that's kind of my point. I would have preferred to tackle the relationship without saving Gawain from making an ass of himself in front of Alicent by spending one of our few actions per turn talking too him. . If we'd know there would be a both of them option in the marriage, talking to Gawain individually without Alicent present would likely have not been part of the winning plan.

Now the option to talk to them isn't even making the top three because the majority of voters, myself included, currently feel we've already had a good discussion of a Gawain marriage, but that may change as we put these updates further behind us. It's increases the likelihood a plan with Marriage is pushed and has good chance of passing next turn as well because the idea we should speak to them together is popular, getting in the way of other priorities. It's all rather frustrating.

@Teen Spirit until spring, can taking marriage twice in a row be stress inducing for Rhaenyra do to the inherent pressures and political considerations clashing with defiant?
 
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[X] [Marriage] Speak to Alicent and Gwayne Hightower
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Otto Hightower
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys
-[X] Speak to Viserys and Otto together
[X] [Marriage] Speak to Alicent Hightower

Okay, I feel that what has hindered most of our decision making as terms of marriage options is our relationship with Alicent, and being unaware of exactly what she may or may not find acceptable for her own emotional standpoint. This feels like the time to actually discuss that matter so we can more objectively view what options she would find potentially acceptable.

I'm honestly a touch iffy on Gwayne being there for that conversation, which is why I did a write in of just Alicent, but Teen Spirit put in that one as a pair for a reason so its probably fine.

After that I actually lean towards Otto, yes he is manipulator, but he doesn't like to play his cards openly, and he is truthfully a very potent advisor, he will promote his own interests, but he is a realist and will give us mostly pertinent and reasonable opinions on the matter, and he himself understands some amount about love, after his wife's death he has never remarried, and even though he is only a second son, he is the Hand of the King that is a position that would give him plenty of options to marry well, and yet he never takes it. He is a more complicated figure than simply a manipulator. Finally if we go to Viserys, really we should have the realist Otto there to be more analytical of the options.

Edit:
[X] [Marriage] Speak with Rhaenys Targaryen
 
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I'm voting for just Rhaenys. I do so because unlike the rest of these options, Rhaenys isn't likely going to be available to talk to this about any time soon if don't pick her now. This is our only chance to discuss the marriage with her for a while. Even if I don't particularly favor a Laenor match, opportunities shouldn't be consistently squandered.
 
[X] [Alicent] A Trip To Dragonstone
Honestly kind of with that [] [Alicent] A Night On the Town won, it is a good excuse to finally pick the "sneak to King's Landing"
[X] [Steffon] Put His Name Forward
Well, I like this himbo, not Commander Material but it could be a good officer

[X] [Marriage] Speak to Viserys
[X] [Marriage] Speak with Rhaenys Targaryen

In this I want Rhanys to win, but I would also like to have Viserys Perspective... Contacting with the 4 main prospective husbands is something that we need to do, but I would rather go to either Rhanys or Viserys first...
 
Yes that's kind of my point. I would have preferred to tackle the relationship without saving Gawain from making an ass of himself in front of Alicent by spending one of our few actions per turn talking too him. . If we'd know there would be a both of them option in the marriage, talking to Gawain individually without Alicent present would likely have not been part of the winning plan.
Ehhh.

First, by the way, is there a reason you persistently spell him differently than everyone else? I'm not sure it's even pronounced the same way.

Second, I think we get a significantly different and better outcome this way. As one example of this, as I've said, Gwayne has gotten off his chest some stuff that would otherwise be coming out in Alicent's presence, or that he might not have been willing to say in Alicent's presence. That's important and will make it much easier for everyone involved to be candid in the upcoming conversation. We can go into the next conversation knowing that Gwayne is bisexual himself, and Gwayne goes in knowing we really do care about Alicent rather than us still having to convince him of that while Alicent is present. If we actually do want to marry Gwayne, I think we'll get a lot farther towards the kind of informal "prenuptial agreement" that we need to have with him in advance now than we would if we hadn't separately voted to talk with him.

Third, from Teen Spirit's perspective, it was always distinctly possible that we might have chosen not to pick "Gwayne and Alicent" in this vote or any immediate-future ones. Note that there are about four popular vote choices. If we hadn't talked to Gwayne already and felt obliged to talk to him anyway just because of Alicent, we'd be kind of locked in now to picking that one, when we might actually want to pick something else (e.g. Rhaenys or writing to Qoren)

Fourth, I think you're being too stingy with action economy. Any of the potential suitors who are seriously worth consideration are worth spending at least one turn action on, in my opinion. I am absolutely fine with spending at least one turn action sounding out 3-4 potential husbands, because the rewards of picking the right guy far exceed the cost of expending a few actions.

Now the option to talk to them isn't even making the top three because the majority of voters, myself included, currently feel we've already had a good discussion of a Gawain marriage, but that may change as we put these updates further behind us. It's increases the likelihood a plan with Marriage is pushed and has good chance of passing next turn as well because the idea we should speak to them together is popular, getting in the way of other priorities. It's all rather frustrating.
Personally, I think we very much want to talk to Alicent face-to-face about the marriage, something we haven't had a chance to do in our scenes with her. To me, the "Gwayne and Alicent" option is more of an "Alicent and Gwayne" option, and I'm more interested in what she has to say than he does, which is why I'm approval-voting it.

@Teen Spirit until spring, can taking marriage twice in a row be stress inducing for Rhaenyra do to the inherent pressures and political considerations clashing with defiant?
I dunno, I imagine that some of the choices she can make actively feed Defiant, because she's getting to make her own decisions in an area where very, very few Westerosi women do. I really doubt she'll be incurring Stress from this unless she has to deal with someone trying to force her to give up Alicent or some other very specific pressure to do what she doesn't want to do.
 
@Teen Spirit until spring, can taking marriage twice in a row be stress inducing for Rhaenyra do to the inherent pressures and political considerations clashing with defiant?
The main things that will make Rhaenyra gain stress from marrying is actually marrying before she's ready and having important decisions about her marriage made without her.
 
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Honestly, my first pick would've been Alicent alone, to sound her out about both the option of marrying her brother and how she feels about polyamory (unless she is not ready to talk about that, which is a distinct possibility and fair enough if so). And yeah, I do believe we should eventually talk to every one of them before making a decision, Qoren is just the one I'm most curious about.
 
Honestly, my first pick would've been Alicent alone, to sound her out about both the option of marrying her brother and how she feels about polyamory (unless she is not ready to talk about that, which is a distinct possibility and fair enough if so). And yeah, I do believe we should eventually talk to every one of them before making a decision, Qoren is just the one I'm most curious about.
Yeah sorry for Gwayne, but now that we have cleared things I would very much talk with Alicent alone...
 
First, by the way, is there a reason you persistently spell him differently than everyone else? I'm not sure it's even pronounced the same way.
Because I'm not very good with names and this way of spelling is more familiar to me from years of interest in a fate character with the name compared to my relatively limited interest in the westerosi of this time period beyond the starks. Or any other time period.
Fourth, I think you're being too stingy with action economy. Any of the potential suitors who are seriously worth consideration are worth spending at least one turn action on, in my opinion. I am absolutely fine with spending at least one turn action sounding out 3-4 potential husbands, because the rewards of picking the right guy far exceed the cost of expending a few actions.
Except it's at least likely that we'll come back to this and talk to the two of them together, possibly as soon as next turn, meaning we'll have spent 3 actions on it in the course of two turns. The thread already has a worrying habit of cycling through a handful of previously enjoyed characters on the regular to the exclusion of none goal related priorities and opportunities.
Second, I think we get a significantly different and better outcome this way. As one example of this, as I've said, Gwayne has gotten off his chest some stuff that would otherwise be coming out in Alicent's presence, or that he might not have been willing to say in Alicent's presence.
I disagree and have stated as much. If anything if he and Rhaenyra aren't open about their previous talk with Alicent that's a serious issue with my support of the marriage. I really don't like the dynamic that sets, and if he wouldn't have been honest without that talk, that sets it's own worrying tones to the situation.
The main things that will make Rhaenyra gain stress from marrying is actually marrying before she's ready and having important decisions about her marriage made without her.
Well, I'll just have to have to hope this doesn't become a thread singular focus like the Alicent romance and training became then.
 
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