Dwarves do have surface settlements, especially in their golden era, and this was the era where elves and dwarves worked together. A dwarven settlement with an elven waystone is not inconceivable, especially because, as you said, a dwarven waystone wouldn't have worked.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
As far as I'm aware, the top is flat but there's still plenty of mountain in the mountain?
You're suggesting it's basically the same as Talabheim but much skinnier?
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I mean, it could be a human-made nexus, maybe. But that just makes me wonder how they'd have known to connect the Middenheim nexus to Tor Lithanel and all that.
Yeah - I've previously speculated that Ghumzul itself may have had an elf nexus to connect it to the rest of the network and from there to the Karaz Ankor.
In fact, I've previously speculated that maybe the reason Ghumzul didn't participate in the War of the Ancients is because they needed the elven nexuses to keep their home safe - that to go against the elves would have meant putting a timer on their own existence. And if their connection to the Karaz Ankor got broken anyway during/after the war... well, that might also explain why they eventually left.
Something along those lines, I guess - I assume the Karak-waystone thing works because of the concept of mountains being unmoved by the Winds, and opening up the mountain on top feels like it would interfere with that.
...It's probably not gonna happen anytime soon but if we want this question answered, we should probably look at the Laurelorn network, to see what the deal with Middenheim is.
Technically it works the other way around. When Mathilde wanted to connect the new waystone in Praag, she didn't do it from the new waystone; she went to one already connected to Praag's nexus, signaled Caledor through the network, and then Caledor reached out himself to extend the network 'upstream' to the new addition. Ergo, once the Middenheim nexus was in place, Tor Lithanel would be the ones to make the connection, and we obviously know they've been keeping an eye on even other people's networks.
Middenheim in 4e has a massive Undercity of Dwarven passages within the mountain that extends all the way down to the Skaven undercity, and from Mathilde's describing the peak as "the only horizontal part of the city in the open air," the implication of all that enclosed horizontal space seems to be quest canon too.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That would make sense, although that still makes me wonder whether they had some help in coming up with the idea of a nexus in the first place. Perhaps they got the idea from the Belthani's likely Albionese roots?
Ahh, I see, I see. Hmm. Questions, questions...
I'd add Laurelorn to the bare minimum too. Part of its network lies in the Empire and it deserves to know what its infrastructure is doing. The Brass Keep might even feed into Laurelorn. A lot of what they do should be applicable to the Empire. Which is less likely for the Ice Witches.
I think Athel Loren and Nehekhara are more about figuring out and guessing what is going on over there. Like reading accounts of people who have invaded them and come out. Karak Norn probably has some idea of what is going on in Athel Loren. The Damsels would too. I don't think there is a point to mapping Bretonnia. We want to bring them onto the Bokha Palace Accords eventually. They will have to share their nexus locations as a condition of that.
Have they mapped their own network? We still had to map the Empire's network even though we're from there. It's possible while they might have some idea, they don't have a full map.
[jk] Map the Waystone Network. All of it. Somehow...
I would be immensely disappointed in the Bretonnians if in the past fifteen hundred years the mysterious magic ladies who exert absolute authority over all concerns did not once try to map out the big rocks channeling streams of magic. The Lady of the Lake probably remembers Ulthuan building the nexuses!
The Empire has the excuse of magophobia. We also hadn't assigned Grunfeld to the action or gotten an Amber to tell us what was up. Grunfeld at least should have been able to tell us about the Empire's. But we didn't do that because it was action inefficient.
I can't imagine the Jades were aware of Athel Yenlui being a province-scale Ghyran geyser and just left it untouched and unguarded on purpose.
I do think though that if we'd had her on the action there would have been a chance of uncovering it in that action. But in hindsight we've made a lot of mistakes with assigning Grunfeld.
But as I stated already, these are entirely different situations. Bretonnia's society was never as afraid as magic as the Empire was and is. The Jades were left devastated compared to their ancestors after millennia of decline. The Damsels don't have that same decline. They also have had an order of magnitude more time to find everything. That matters. And as I've mentioned: the Lady of the Lake was around to see Ulthuan build these waystones in the first place.
No, I decided on the Grey Lords before the Salzenmund book came out.
Teufelheim was the necromancy college thing? It also wouldn't allow better looting of all options even there, Boney is very upfront about the mechanics of rewards - don't try to double dip, one mechanically effective reward per quest completed only. Sure we got the dragon skull too, but we didn't use it for anything but bragging rights and a bond villain chair.
This will never change I guess even if it 'makes sense'. It doesn't matter if you have a giant pile of gold and a giant pile of sorcery books at the same time as possible rewards and bring alongside a spacious van that fits both, you're getting one and the second will evaporate or never had existed at all.
I'm not feeling it for tower or ship
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Do we have any actual reason to believe that one can just bleed an apparition for it? We never did such an experiment and the Wisdom Asp's situation is kind of special with the bleeding exactly at the egress of a very personal Warp portal.
- Location
- Earth
I don't believe that's true. Think back to the skaven adventures with Gretel and with Johann, with the voting split between ceding and claiming the individual portions of the loot—all of the loot was acquired by the party, because it made narrative sense for them to be able to collect it all over weeks of time and the support of the Karak's logistics being nearby. There's still a voting choice, but it's not on what is left behind.
Contrast that with something like Teufelheim or the Kul Encampment—in those scenarios, Mathilde had limited time—hours at best—and minimal cargo carrying capabilities, and thus the options were 'pick 2, dump the rest.'
That doesn't mean increased cargo would result in less choices, it just means that the meaning of those choices is different due to the change in circumstances.
Mathilde's expertise and research on the matters of metaphysics, the Aethyr, and Apparitions have led to that conclusion. If there was any doubt she wouldn't be speaking with such confidence on the matter.
Just because there will never be a non-vote of 'take everything' doesn't mean that more cargo capacity will never be helpful in character. As our capacities expand our options do too.
In saying 'one will evaporate' you are doing Boney a disservice as a GM.
[X] Plan: Bureau of Fantastical Infrastructure
-[X] Use Empire *and* College boons to establish a body to maintain the Waystone Network
-[X] The Colleges develop one or more methods to measure magical flow through leylines
-[X] The Empire requires provinces and powers to map, monitor, and maintain the network in their control
--[X] The Colleges monitor key leyline flows on a national level
--[X] Local powers commit to map their local network with divine/wind magic, with way shards/seviroscopes, or with guesses, whatever they can
--[X] Local powers check their stones periodically with magic users, with magic devices, or just by prodding them with a stick
--[X] Central government sets up an office to receive data, make it into proper maps/reports, and provide them where needed (Colleges, non-magic academics, major cults, counts, etc)
I want widespread and long-term Waystone involvement, and this works towards that. One Mathilde can only do so much, and I want to arrange things so others can and will do what we don't - and carry it far into the future. I also think there is a good chance we do other things in the very near future and would be happy to see us work towards ensuring the Waystone Projects legacy.
On the other hand, I actually do want an airship, think the Prismatic Wanderer sounds great, and like having a just-for-us rewards for the morbs.
Edit: I've never done a plan before so I hope it's as it should be. If not, never mind, I want the airship anyway.
-[X] Use Empire *and* College boons to establish a body to maintain the Waystone Network
-[X] The Colleges develop one or more methods to measure magical flow through leylines
-[X] The Empire requires provinces and powers to map, monitor, and maintain the network in their control
--[X] The Colleges monitor key leyline flows on a national level
--[X] Local powers commit to map their local network with divine/wind magic, with way shards/seviroscopes, or with guesses, whatever they can
--[X] Local powers check their stones periodically with magic users, with magic devices, or just by prodding them with a stick
--[X] Central government sets up an office to receive data, make it into proper maps/reports, and provide them where needed (Colleges, non-magic academics, major cults, counts, etc)
I want widespread and long-term Waystone involvement, and this works towards that. One Mathilde can only do so much, and I want to arrange things so others can and will do what we don't - and carry it far into the future. I also think there is a good chance we do other things in the very near future and would be happy to see us work towards ensuring the Waystone Projects legacy.
- Leyline-monitoring can firstly detect/locate network damage, secondly track overall magic changes (like chaos stirring), and thirdly detect events outside our local network. Laurelorn, Ulthuan, and the Karaz-Ankor can all do it after all. Mages are continuously exposed to the network.
- Local mapping makes maps of course, but also show where investment is needed or useful. They enable further analysis by academics to determine measurable effects of network coverage, and basic monitoring keeps locals involved. Involvement can be cheap/basic or more advanced, and can be done by peasants, cults, or wind casters.
- Central control facilitates cooperation, and regular reports/analysis promote awareness, show clear cost/benefits of the network/investments, and highlight risks/opportunities.
- Involvement is ongoing, so awareness is maintained.
- Involvement is useful to those who do it.
- Involvement is widespread - sovereign, local, and magical. Control is sovereign so cults/others can get involved easily.
- Involvement can be cheap or expensive, so groups can stay involved when funds are scarce.
- Involvement is synergistic - everyone benefits more when others participate.
- Involvement demonstrates it's value - by measuring cost, benefit, and risk.
On the other hand, I actually do want an airship, think the Prismatic Wanderer sounds great, and like having a just-for-us rewards for the morbs.
Edit: I've never done a plan before so I hope it's as it should be. If not, never mind, I want the airship anyway.
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We cannot make the Empire do things even with a Boon, the most we can do is propose things of this scale at an elector's meet.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It could be something like a mesa, where it's like a mountain but with a large flat top. Add in some tunnels and halls and such with dwarves, and you get a fortress-city on a mountain-like feature.
A good plan, but it runs into several problems. First is that a boon can only bring a proposal to the Empire's elector counts to vote on (with us making an argument in favor of it); it cannot force the Empire to adopt any policy. Similarly, I don't think we can dictate policy to the Colleges in any sense beyond making a proposal to be considered, unless what we're asking for is the foundation of an already accepted kind of organization like a branch college or magical tower.
There's also the problem of staffing. The Colleges have a limited number of wizards whom are mostly busy and needed elsewhere. This is why it takes College Favor to borrow any of them for a time. We earn CF by doing good wizardly things, and thus earn the implicit right to borrow the time of other wizards because we are trusted to be doing something worthwhile with their valuable time and effort. An entire Empire-spanning organization doing regular work is a lot of wizard-hours all over the place.
Then there's the problem of necessity. Constantly monitoring the Waystone Network in the Empire is just not necessary. Even before we developed the ability to replace broken or corrupted waystones, it was more than the Colleges could handle to keep track of them all all the time. We specifically designed our new series of waystones to not need any maintenance or monitoring, and all existing waystones were designed in a similar manner. Being maintenance-free is a key goal because of the limited wizard-hours and attention available to dedicate to such tasks. And by creating a new, sustainable method for waystone production, we can even replace broken waystones now when we find them.
What you're proposing is the creation of an entire agency across the Empire, and that's something you'd need the Emperor backing you heavily to have a chance at. This is strictly a Colleges boon.
Good effort, though, and definitely something that would have a place in a real world in the modern day.
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Yes, indeed it is so. I had less problems with writing about this idea than I did stopping writing about this, so I may have been overzealous with cutting things down.
All of the political stuff was just stuffed into the single line 'use both boons to establish this body'. The rest of it is still structured around the idea we'd need to meet approval though. A more full accounting may be:
- The colleges build monitoring doodad/technique
- Colleges commit to some monitoring
- Colleges support the proposal for national support politically
- We use empire boon to bring (currently skeletonised) proposal to electors.
- Upfront benefits of the major leyline monitoring ought be obvious. Benefits clear and obvious with no extra work - but more and better available if investments made.
- All 'requirements' are loose - the tasks can be done to whatever standard is 'reasonable' in the circumstances. All tasks can be done with peasants, by the cults or colleges, or maybe with experts with magic/runic devices.
- The central admin is through a government branch not the colleges. This is to stop it being a wizard-thomg as much as possible, or at least stop it being under wizadd-jurisdiction, so others feel more comfortable joining in.
Honestly the whole proposal does require some fleshing out to make it the good solid foundation I want it to be...but I thought I'd throw it ought there as is.
Thanks for your detailed response!
Regarding bringing things up the the ElectorMeet rather than dictating policy, well I talked about that above. When it comes to the College policy side, making it a permanent policy to monitor leylines would be a result of a successful imperial policy. The College boons just develop the tool, get an agreement that to monitor stuff would be jolly good, and lobby the electors.
When it comes to both staffing and necessity - I think we have different ideas on what sort of scale is needed. While more monitoring gives more detail, currently all the imperial nexuses flow through Altdorf to Marienburg/Fort Solace. That's a single connection to monitor, that can be monitored from the Imperial Capital and home of the colleges. And while checking it daily could bring benefits... Even just annual measurements provide benefits that we don't have.
I think that sort of underlies a lot about why I think this is a good idea - it can be started with really really low commitments, while still delivering useful results. And then those good results make further investment more attractive - or at least keep involvement ongoing in some form so that when big opportunities/risks come along they can be sized/averted.
All the proposal requires long-term is for someone to measure the Altdorf nexus-flow once a year, and for the electors to agree that mapping/monitoring is a good idea they'll do at some point to some extent. But it facilitates, encourages, and incentivises a lot more.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So if all you're doing is checking the raw amount of magic flowing through one point, year-round, then that's not something you spend a boon for. That's something you bring up to Algard and maybe Dragomas, with a justification for why this is worth doing, and they agree with you or don't. That's not a boon, that's a policy recommendation made backed up by a paper on the benefits of doing so.
And the amount of information you'd gain is...limited. We wouldn't be getting info about the magic going through Kislev, for example, which would be the go-to check for a brewing Storm of Chaos or Everchosen.
We already know Ulthuan monitors this information through the nexus in Marienburg. It's how Teclis discovered that we were building leylines.
However, the information you can glean is probably more limited than you think. If the total amount goes down, perhaps a waystone went offline somewhere--but where? You'd have no idea where to start other than "somewhere in the Empire". But since checking up on waystones is something the Colleges already do and have been doing, their behavior doesn't really change. And if the total amount of magic increases, that might just be because of new leylines or waystones. You can't even get useful data about which Winds are increasing in levels or not, because the waystones work by pairing multiple Winds together with Dhar and sending entire packets when enough of those three elements are present in a waystone's storage.
It works well for Ulthuan because they can see Kislev's network, which is the early warning section for Chaos activity, and they can see if a major drop in flow occurs and intuit that an entire branch of waystones lost a link in the chain somewhere. But in terms of action, the only time that the elves have actually done something (after the Colleges were founded) based on that information is when a nexus was established at Fort Solace after the Great War Against Chaos when a nexus was lost and the entire Empire was cut off. Well, that, and sending Eltharion to negotiate with the Waystone Project.
Now, we could establish some kind of line of communication and coordination with Ulthuan and the other signatories of the Waystone Project about anyone noticing an anomalous rise or drop in magical energies in their part of the network, on the basis that it could be indicating a Storm of Chaos or a major addition of waystones--but that's something we'd do within the bounds of the Waystone Project, not a Colleges boon.
That's fine, possibly even a good idea, but it's something we should bring up as a proposal backed by a paper to Algard and Dragomas, maybe with support from Elrisse and Paranoth. Not something to spend a boon on. It's "here's the benefits of an idea, and here's how little time and effort it would take to implement, and as proof I'm citing Prince Eltharion that Ulthuan already does this themselves for similar reasons."
Case in point, once we placed the first waystone in Praag, Boney specifically wrote that subsequent waystones would be paid for and placed by Kislev, with the Project having laid the groundwork for how they're built and who can build the various components (and proving that it can all be done the way we're saying it can be done). Same goes for Stirland, and Barak Varr/Zhufbar. We aren't spending a boon to get them to help themselves, we just have to blaze the trail for others to follow and prove it's doable.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Actually they were monitoring the flow through Northwatch, a fortress located on the northernmost island of Ulthuan. It might take in magic from Bretonnia too, given the geography.
Well you're not wrong about that once-a-year check not being that useful. Then again that's not really the aim of this.
For the leylines there is a wide spread of options - a single annual Altdorf check, checking several spots/branches, checking on branches on rotation so you can track issues to a region, doing more frequent checks/timed checks. You could use spells/techniques, or commission runic/enchanted devices so perpetuals can do the work. There is a whole range of options - and sure doing next to nothing produces very little...but it's just one option and ensures it can continue in tough times
The direct benefits of leylines monitoring are mostly useful because they can justify doing it. But it also keeps wizards engaged with the network, it provides continued data to make other analysis possible, it opens the door for more research into network performance, and it provides a way to measure just how much magic is siphoned away - if only for publicity/persuasion purposes.
The whole proposal though isn't about leylines monitoring at all, which is the reason why there is no actual requirement for anyone to do that much. What I was aiming for is to lay the foundation of a self-reinforcong structure that will grow of it's own accord and be resilient to crises and chaotic events.
The whole 'we're just blazing a trail' just like in Prague is very much at the forefront of this idea. Leylines monitoring and local mapping is good but just means to an end to keep the colleges engaged on a continual basis, to have sovereign and local rulers getting regular reports about opportunities and risks, to provide a more measurable cost/benefits to more investment, and so on.
That's the core of why it's an empire boon,and focused around non-college participation. Setting out whose responsibility what is, giving cults/regular academics an in, and making sure there are a range of options to fulfil requirements.
I mentioned before that this idea would take quite a bit of writing to flesh out, and I think it shows. I'm not sure if I'll actually get around to that - I'm only typing this out on my phone after all. But that's the aim - laying the seeds and setting the conditions for a self-reinforcing system
For the leylines there is a wide spread of options - a single annual Altdorf check, checking several spots/branches, checking on branches on rotation so you can track issues to a region, doing more frequent checks/timed checks. You could use spells/techniques, or commission runic/enchanted devices so perpetuals can do the work. There is a whole range of options - and sure doing next to nothing produces very little...but it's just one option and ensures it can continue in tough times
The direct benefits of leylines monitoring are mostly useful because they can justify doing it. But it also keeps wizards engaged with the network, it provides continued data to make other analysis possible, it opens the door for more research into network performance, and it provides a way to measure just how much magic is siphoned away - if only for publicity/persuasion purposes.
The whole proposal though isn't about leylines monitoring at all, which is the reason why there is no actual requirement for anyone to do that much. What I was aiming for is to lay the foundation of a self-reinforcong structure that will grow of it's own accord and be resilient to crises and chaotic events.
The whole 'we're just blazing a trail' just like in Prague is very much at the forefront of this idea. Leylines monitoring and local mapping is good but just means to an end to keep the colleges engaged on a continual basis, to have sovereign and local rulers getting regular reports about opportunities and risks, to provide a more measurable cost/benefits to more investment, and so on.
That's the core of why it's an empire boon,and focused around non-college participation. Setting out whose responsibility what is, giving cults/regular academics an in, and making sure there are a range of options to fulfil requirements.
I mentioned before that this idea would take quite a bit of writing to flesh out, and I think it shows. I'm not sure if I'll actually get around to that - I'm only typing this out on my phone after all. But that's the aim - laying the seeds and setting the conditions for a self-reinforcing system
The biggest problem I see with the monitoring is that we would need to interface with several nexuses to do it or dig down far enough to actually get to the flow of the leylines...
Both of those have the inherit problem of "now how do we do that without fucking it up and reshaping the landscape via explosive geological movement.
Both of those have the inherit problem of "now how do we do that without fucking it up and reshaping the landscape via explosive geological movement.