- Location
- Earth
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new update has added to the canon thin saucer a cheaper cost shield system for the same performance. Was that there in the old update?
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Honestly, my reason for arguing in favor of the Thin Saucer is that it's all the mass benefits of the Half-Saucer, but it's noted that the shield system will be cheaper for the same protection in that hull form - which is attractive to me, because making something that can take a hit without breaking the bank sounds like a good idea to me.
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
I think half saucers are ugly, and that's the basis of my vote.
[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
This is currently the most efficient option for letting us stack the four Type-2 Impulse Engines needed to reach Very High Manoeuvrability with a mass above 180kT, without impinging on our neck or engineering spaces. Being able to go above 180kT mass should let us pick a decent-sized secondary hull, with more range, endurance and resilience for our cruiser as a result, making it directly better at cruising.
But honestly if the Connie saucer wins then I'm fine with it; it's certainly pretty and iconic. Honestly given I started this discussion defending the merits of the original Enterprise, I feel distinctly mixed about voting on utilitarian grounds lmao.
EDIT:
[X] 140 Meter Saucer (200,000 Tons)
Also approval voting for this because I'm in favour of more space, and am marginally less certain that we will get a 80kT secondary hull.
The Thunderchild's emphasis on broad coverage to support allies and engage multiple aggressors. If the Klingons built a Thunderchild, they'd give it massive frontal facing disruptor cannons built to hunt other similar-sized capital ships, as they have with the D6, D5 and D7. As much as the Thunderchild was profoundly significant to us, we aren't the centre of the universe.
The mission of the original Enterprise is a cool historical moment, but does not change the fact that Earth was essentially a backwater as far as the Klingons were concerned at the time, which is stated repeatedly in the those episodes of Enterprise themselves. The memory of the original Enterprise and Captain Archer might have some resonance for Klingons who know the story, but not a completely different ship. It is also historical trivia in the current year.
The Earth-Romulan war is when Earth starts to enter Klingon's radar as a polity, but (a) Earth was very much the junior partner in that coalition militarily speaking, the ones the Klingons would recognise first would be the Andorians and Vulcans (b) the Klingons appreciate the Romulans are a major power, but view them with contempt as utterly honourless. Klingon borders and the Federation's only start to brush up against one another in latter decades, and ships were slower in that era, so direct contacts would have been rare, and news travelled more slowly. It's a bit like the 17th or 18th century Qing Empire hearing about the the English defeating the Dutch or Spanish.
Probably the point where the Klingons regularly start to encounter the Federation more and our border zones start to brush up against each other is the the Federation-Kzin war and its aftermath; the Kzin were situated somewhere in between Federation and Klingon space IIRC. By that point we're pretty definitively on the map, and they're firmly aware of us, although they still see us as an inferior, and the Warspite is a relic soon to be decommissioned after one last hurrah. Even in this era of increasing contact, individual Federation ship classes are not eliciting a that kind of emotive reaction from Klingon captains, because they're... Klingons. That a Sagamartha managed to ambush and destroy a D6 would certainly been noticed with a degree of respect, but even then, they would not be afraid of the ship class. They would simply see it as a more exciting trophy.
In absolute fairness, it's possible that to the infinitesimal extent the Thunderchild does have a presence in Klingon culture, the recent film about the Warspite would have had some impact in shaping Klingon perceptions of humans. The story of an overmatched and elderly warhorse standing her ground against more numerous and advanced foes out of a refusal to back down would definitely appeal to Klingon sensibilities. But even then, the percentage of the Klingon population who watch imported Earth cinema in the 2220s are probably like, the equivalent of weaboos and niche hobbyists, and a few military analysts. And the resonance there is of a plucky underdog who shows surprising honour despite being from a weaker species, not a terrifying foe.
Canonically, this does not really change until the Constitution and more specifically the Enterprise encounter the Klingons, which leaves what we could call a "lasting impression" in the Klingon psyche. Even then, it's as much about the legend and deeds of James T. Kirk and his crew as it is the ship itself, and Klingon captains are roughly as likely to want to die a glorious death fighting the Enterprise as be intimidated by it, or sometimes both.
This is currently the most efficient option for letting us stack the four Type-2 Impulse Engines needed to reach Very High Manoeuvrability with a mass above 180kT, without impinging on our neck or engineering spaces. Being able to go above 180kT mass should let us pick a decent-sized secondary hull, with more range, endurance and resilience for our cruiser as a result, making it directly better at cruising.
But honestly if the Connie saucer wins then I'm fine with it; it's certainly pretty and iconic. Honestly given I started this discussion defending the merits of the original Enterprise, I feel distinctly mixed about voting on utilitarian grounds lmao.
EDIT:
[X] 140 Meter Saucer (200,000 Tons)
Also approval voting for this because I'm in favour of more space, and am marginally less certain that we will get a 80kT secondary hull.
The Thunderchild's emphasis on broad coverage to support allies and engage multiple aggressors. If the Klingons built a Thunderchild, they'd give it massive frontal facing disruptor cannons built to hunt other similar-sized capital ships, as they have with the D6, D5 and D7. As much as the Thunderchild was profoundly significant to us, we aren't the centre of the universe.
The mission of the original Enterprise is a cool historical moment, but does not change the fact that Earth was essentially a backwater as far as the Klingons were concerned at the time, which is stated repeatedly in the those episodes of Enterprise themselves. The memory of the original Enterprise and Captain Archer might have some resonance for Klingons who know the story, but not a completely different ship. It is also historical trivia in the current year.
The Earth-Romulan war is when Earth starts to enter Klingon's radar as a polity, but (a) Earth was very much the junior partner in that coalition militarily speaking, the ones the Klingons would recognise first would be the Andorians and Vulcans (b) the Klingons appreciate the Romulans are a major power, but view them with contempt as utterly honourless. Klingon borders and the Federation's only start to brush up against one another in latter decades, and ships were slower in that era, so direct contacts would have been rare, and news travelled more slowly. It's a bit like the 17th or 18th century Qing Empire hearing about the the English defeating the Dutch or Spanish.
Probably the point where the Klingons regularly start to encounter the Federation more and our border zones start to brush up against each other is the the Federation-Kzin war and its aftermath; the Kzin were situated somewhere in between Federation and Klingon space IIRC. By that point we're pretty definitively on the map, and they're firmly aware of us, although they still see us as an inferior, and the Warspite is a relic soon to be decommissioned after one last hurrah. Even in this era of increasing contact, individual Federation ship classes are not eliciting a that kind of emotive reaction from Klingon captains, because they're... Klingons. That a Sagamartha managed to ambush and destroy a D6 would certainly been noticed with a degree of respect, but even then, they would not be afraid of the ship class. They would simply see it as a more exciting trophy.
In absolute fairness, it's possible that to the infinitesimal extent the Thunderchild does have a presence in Klingon culture, the recent film about the Warspite would have had some impact in shaping Klingon perceptions of humans. The story of an overmatched and elderly warhorse standing her ground against more numerous and advanced foes out of a refusal to back down would definitely appeal to Klingon sensibilities. But even then, the percentage of the Klingon population who watch imported Earth cinema in the 2220s are probably like, the equivalent of weaboos and niche hobbyists, and a few military analysts. And the resonance there is of a plucky underdog who shows surprising honour despite being from a weaker species, not a terrifying foe.
Canonically, this does not really change until the Constitution and more specifically the Enterprise encounter the Klingons, which leaves what we could call a "lasting impression" in the Klingon psyche. Even then, it's as much about the legend and deeds of James T. Kirk and his crew as it is the ship itself, and Klingon captains are roughly as likely to want to die a glorious death fighting the Enterprise as be intimidated by it, or sometimes both.
Well...
We know our previous heavy cruiser (the Sagarmatha) loses slowly to a D6. The Kea and Archer can't fight. There's only 4 Radiants built, and three of them are going to explode in the opening days of the war.
The Newton is not an equal to the D6. The Selachi and the Saladin can tangle with D6s, but probably need an edge in numbers:
And the Newton doesn't have heavier guns than those two.
All of our existing ships need a number advantage to fight off D6s. D7s are right out. That above quote is a description of Klingon raiders in 2230, when the D7 hasn't shown up yet. Once it has, well:
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/They
It was not. Doesn't matter, though; even one extra tube mount on the half-saucer (and we might even get two) means it's still overwhelmingly more cost-effective, because non-discounted covalent shields on the half-saucer are still SO MUCH CHEAPER than having to shell out for prototype rapid-fire torpedo launchers to get our throw weight up on the thin saucer.
Edit: I suppose if you're planning to vote for a pair of prototype rapid-fire launchers anyway, then yeah, thin saucer is better- might as well take what discounts you can get, you're gonna need 'em. We just really can't afford 'em and still build these things in the needed quantities.
See previous remarks.
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SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
Chargone
Invisable operator
- Location
- New Zealand
Really depends on the secondary hull and nacelles, I find. Poorly matched ones can result in an uglier ship than a full saucer would, but well matched ones can look better instead. Of course, it's all at least partially subjective.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I agree on your first point--that they'd hardly care about the aesthetics of a century-old ship--but not on the Klingon view of the Thunderchild-class and Skate and Selachii.
The Thunderchild was unambiguously a tough warship built to have as much firepower and durability as the technology United Earth had available. The idea that it was "defensive" lacks merit on the grounds that it spearheaded offensives and counteroffensives, and was basically what allowed United Earth to conduct tactical attack maneuvers at all. It compensated for lacking shields and state-of-the-art weaponry by having tons of firepower and armor along with a lot of mass. From a Klingon point of view, that's a valid philosophy even if it's not one they'd necessarily choose.
But even that falls flat in the face of the Skate, which is extremely evocative of the Klingons' favorite, the bird-of-prey. Fast, agile, maneuverable, packing a lot of firepower for its size, but fragile and relatively small. That the Skate was mass produced alongside the Thunderchild shows that United Earth definitely shared some key design philosophies with the Klingon Empire, which has its own bigger, more sluggish brawlers alongside its numerous birds of prey.
That the Selachii was basically a generational overhaul of the Skate shows that the Federation has not forgotten these principles.
But the design we're working on now isn't for a maximum tonnage dreadnought, it's for a heavy cruiser. We are definitely going to want to pack a lot of firepower and agility into this thing, because without the specter of apocalyptic war to drive it, I doubt we'll get an urgent request for a Thunderchild-like behemoth this time around. Our shield technology being still fairly basic doesn't give much encouragement in that direction either.
[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
The Canon Constitution was never required to kick as much D7 ass as ours is. OTL the Klingons would not begin a serious war until the 2260's, at which point there had been decades of production to build up a large force. Further, it was also able to rely on support from older ships refitted with the modern Warp 8 core. Neither of these are true of our Constitution. This ship will be the only Warp 8 combatant available, and will be available only in the limited numbers constructable before 2240. So much more pressure will fall upon it, and there will be fewer of them.
Also as part of this I expect that early tranches will suffer heavy casualties. It's cynical but we don't need to build these ships for a good post war refit because most of them will not live to see it. 3/4 of the Radiants were lost. Both the Newton and Archer took serious casualties, probably more than half their total builds prewar.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
except... the half saucer will have less space?
Literally half, in fact?
Like, the half saucer option is the one that's going to lock us into rapid fire torps, because there's no way in hell we're getting more than 2-3 tubes on it, wherease a full saucer might actually manage six if we were willing to shell out for that many.
But this immaterial since I'm inclined to the rapid torps anyway, since the canon Connie had them. and would like them for all our future projects.
Honestly, like Covariant shields, we really should have gotten those into production sooner/on earlier designs, but we can't unspill that milk---No, put down that time machine, No Time Shenanigans---so we just have to eat the cost now so we still have a Federation in another fifty years.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
[X] 140 Meter Thin Saucer (140,000 Tons) [Canon: Constitution-class]
If we stay below 180K tons, we can get Very High maneuverability with only three Type-2s or two Type-3s. If we go above 180K tons... well, either we accept less maneuverability just the cost of more tonnage (and a heavy cruiser with 'just' High maneuverability is still very good) or we get creative with thruster placement.
Also, anything that makes powerful defenses cheaper is kinda a gimme; this is again a ship that we expect to take hits.
[X] 140 Meter Saucer (200,000 Tons)
I'd also like to build with this, though I have no expectation that it'll win.
If we stay below 180K tons, we can get Very High maneuverability with only three Type-2s or two Type-3s. If we go above 180K tons... well, either we accept less maneuverability just the cost of more tonnage (and a heavy cruiser with 'just' High maneuverability is still very good) or we get creative with thruster placement.
Also, anything that makes powerful defenses cheaper is kinda a gimme; this is again a ship that we expect to take hits.
[X] 140 Meter Saucer (200,000 Tons)
I'd also like to build with this, though I have no expectation that it'll win.
Chargone
Invisable operator
- Location
- New Zealand
The half saucer and the canon saucer are, by mass, the same size. Of the two, the half saucer has more "front" to mount things on.
The larger saucer is a different matter, of course, being, well, larger, but between being more massive and not being as good for mounting engines on, isn't as good a platform for a torpedo focused ship as the half saucer.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
As I understand it, the place where the half-saucer loses space to the full saucer is internal systems rather than weapons. It still has the same forward bow, which is where forward-mounted weapons are going to be located. Compared to the Connie, the tapered saucer has the same mass but a narrower profile, and unlike the half-saucer needs to use internal space for engines, so it'll likely have less systems and less room for weapons.
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The half saucer is thicker than the full saucer, hence why they have the same mass. It also has 4 rim decks which will give room for more torpedoes. Also Also if we need more engines, the half guarantees not impacting space in the neck or engineering hull, which are places we could use torpedoes. That the full saucer doesn't offer this guarantee suggests that mounting many engines will become an issue with space in these areas.
[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
Possibly, but I see this as all the more reason to invest heavily in defenses: if Starfleet is already going to be losing a lot of other ships, we want to stanch the bleeding as much as possible.
Just a general statement that lower mass ships have to spend less on defensive systems.
